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Did I set my players up for failure?


xylden76

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So this weekend I had my party of three players, each just above the 160cp mark go up against one brute at 201cp.  In general terms is 3x160 on par with a 201?  I ask because, well, rolls kicked their ass.  The brute landed more of hits granting better stun effects whereas the team kept hitting extremities.  The end result was one KIA and the other two fled, and there were five knockouts between the three players.  thoughts?

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It should be okay, my rule of thumb is every 50 points is doubling power of a character (very roughly) in terms of numbers -- so a 150-point character can take on two, 100-point characters.  But it depends a lot on die rolls, setting, tactics, and how characters are built.  A lot of the time villains are built straight combat where characters are built with depth and other skills they use in a campaign.  Like a rogue taking on a warrior.

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That sounds like a very difficult, but not impossible encounter. Encounter Design is more art than science. However I generally use the rules for pricing Followers when estimating an Encounter's Challenge Rating (a useful concept from D&D/Pathfinder). The gist of it is that One 200-Point Enemy is roughly equal to Two 175-Point Enemies in terms of their Challenge Rating (A numerical estimate of the level of challenge posed by the encounter). I also typically exclude non-combat skills, perks, and abilities from my calculations when determining a Character/Encounter's Challenge Rating.

 

Basically, take a Character's Total Points, and subtract the cost of all of their Non-combat skills, Perks, and Special Abilities, and add the cost of any Equipment they didn't pay points for. Divide that number by 25 and round to the nearest whole number. That is the Character's Challenge Rating (CR). A character has even odds of defeating any encounter with a CR equal to their own, and exponentially reduced odd of defeating any encounter with a CR higher than their own. A character built on 175-points will typically have a CR of between 6 and 8 depending upon equipment and non-combat investments. When designing an Encounter, doubling the size of a given group only increases its CR by 1. So an encounter with two characters built on 175-points will typically have a CR of between 7 and 9. Optimization can also lead to inaccurate CR values, a highly optimized character/encounter can easily have a CR 1 or 2 points higher than the math indicates they should.

 

So your 200 point enemy probably had a CR of around 8, and your heroes probably had a combined CR of around 7.5 (but most likely lower if they invested in more than 10 or 20 points worth of Noncombat Game Elements).

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Wow, you guys put a lot of stock in total points. Here is what I would look at:

 

- how does Brute's OCV compare to their DCV? That is, how often will he hit?

- how does Brute's DCV compare to their OCV? That is, how often will he get hit?

- how does Brute's SPD compare to their SPD? That is, many actions does he get for each of theirs?

- How does Brute's damage compare to their defenses? That is, how much damage will he do?

- How does their damage compare to Brute's defenses? That is, how much damage will he take?

 

Each of these alone could be gamebreaking - if he can hit easily (say 75%) and they will have a tough time hitting (say, 10%), he'll probably clean their clocks.

 

If he connects for massive damage and they just plink off his armor, again, he will likely clean their clocks.

 

But even then, a lucky shot can change everything. For example, maybe Brute has an OCV 8 (and they have DCVs of 6 - 7), and does a 2 1/2d6 KA (and they have defenses of 6rPD, + 6 PD = 12). They have OCV 7 and he has DCV 8, say, and their attacks manage 2d6 KA to his 8rPD +7 PD. Their SPD is equal.

 

They should get 3 attacks to his one, with a 50% chance to hit. An average hit will manage no BOD, but 6 STUN, so they should wear him down at 9 STUN a phase. He'll hit more often (say 75%) for some BOD and 15 STUN. A bad hit against one of them? He can back off for a couple of recoveries while his buddies Block or Dodge. GUT FEEL: The PCs should have a tough but winnable fight.

 

Then the rubber hits the road.

 

Brute takes a hit or two for limited damage. Then he lands a Head Shot and rolls box cars for 13 BOD, 65 STUN. That's 7 BOD past defenses, doubled for a head hit - OUCH - and 53 STUN past defenses. Wow, the odds just changed big time!

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Yeah, Hugh nails it.  Raw points really don't tell the tale when it comes to balancing encounters.  You have to look at what goes into those points (and Hugh picks out the key values). 

 

For folks new to the system, it can be surprising how a little variance in something like CV can have a big impact.  Take a look at the Success Roll Odds table on page 232 of Champions Complete.  If Capt Accuracy's OCV is 3 higher, then he only need a 14- to hit for 90% odds.  If his DCV is also 3 higher, then his opponent needs an 8- for 25% odds.  That's a pretty big mismatch and it's only a 3 point difference in OCV and DCV.  In order to turn that into a fair fight, Cpt Accuracy's foe needs to either dish out big damage or attack way more often.  Defensively, his foe needs to be able to soak a lot more.

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Yeah, total points isn't all that important.  I look at other things.

 

OCV/DCV -- Generally a difference of 3 is very significant.  If you need an 8- to hit somebody, that's a difficult attack.  If they are hitting you on a 14-, that's a very reliable chance to hit them.

Speed -- 2 extra Speed is a big advantage in a fight.  If the average in the group is a 5, a guy with a 7 is going to be very fast.  Above 2 points of Speed, it's a huge difference.

Damage -- Adding 3D6 to the average attack will make it much more powerful.  It's usually enough to regularly Stun opponents, and it can knock them unconscious much more quickly.

Defenses -- An extra 25% on your defense will cut down a lot of the damage you take.  If the average Def is 25, then adding an extra 6 points (to 31) will make you pretty tough.  An extra 50% (to 37) will make you almost invincible.

Special moves -- Having an unusual attack can knock people out of the fight very quickly, particularly if they don't have any defense for it.

 

Having several of these will make a guy much more powerful than his opponents.  Take an "average" superhero.  OCV/DCV of 8.  Spd 5.  12D6 attacks.  28-ish Def.  Let's say you have 4 of these heroes.  Now they fight Superguy.  OCV/DCV 11.  Spd 8.  15D6 attacks.  35 Def.  And he's got a Radar Sense and can create Darkness to Sight 4" around him.  He's going to walk all over those guys.  They don't even stand a chance.  They'll rarely hit him, and when they do they won't get much through.  He's going to go more often than they do, he won't miss much, and every hit will do way more damage than they're used to.  He'll probably Stun them with every punch.  Not to mention that he's basically invisible when his Darkness field is up.  He can see you, you can't see him.

 

So look at things like that.  Look at the whole package.  Some guy who is a little tougher in every area can end up being incredibly effective.

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Also, when you work in Hit Locations, CV disparities can make called shots very attractive.  That can quickly unbalance a scenario as well (remembering the PC Martial Artist with +8 CSLs who always called the head because his CV was that good; fortunately he was a glass cannon which helped balance that out). 

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I think the question is also...Were the players working as a team or just trying to duke it out with this brute one on one?

Maybe they didn't have any team tactics or code words, but did anybody even think to yell "Somebody grab this mud sucker while I clean his clock!" Bar room brawl tactics, simple but effective.

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I do put a lot of stock into Total Points, but I'm also a fairly firm believer of building within the guidelines for your point level. Doing so vastly decreases the difficulty of balancing encounters, and as I said above, the system I presented only gives you a numerical estimate. In order to produce a truly balanced encounter you have to calculate a tedious amount of information, comparing every character's combat statistics and capabilities to ensure that the combat will probably go the way you want it to. Even if you do everything perfectly (encounter design wise), unusual tactics (good or bad) or sheer luck can significantly alter a combat's outcome from what you predicted.

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Wow, you guys put a lot of stock in total points.

I'm with you, Hugh. I have a 225-point priest in my game whose entire combat repertoire consists of "Um, I dodge?" He'd get his clock cleaned by a well-balanced warrior of half those points, or a min-maxed warrior of less than that.

 

For each new campaign I create a spreadsheet that takes the PCs' Characteristics and Defenses, and calculates how much damage they'll take from an average hit at each DC. So I know an attacker who does 2d6K will on average get X BODY and Y STUN through with each hit, which will KO the PC in this many hits, or kill him in that many hits, or will Stun him with a lucky Vitals shot, etc. Compare their CVs like Hugh described, and that gives you a sense of how long that will take.

 

The converse spreadsheet lists the PCs' primary attacks and compares them against different Defenses, so I have an idea how long it will take them to hurt the villain. It's not an exact science, but I find it works well enough.

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I'm with you, Hugh. I have a 225-point priest in my game whose entire combat repertoire consists of "Um, I dodge?" He'd get his clock cleaned by a well-balanced warrior of half those points, or a min-maxed warrior of less than that.

 

 

And like I noted above, its exaggerated by enemies, who are almost always built without extra stuff like skills or background.  So for the points in combat terms (the only terms you're usually going to deal with them) they are much leaner and more focused

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to all,

 

I just got back home. This is just my third post overall as I am a new GM to the system. Thanks for all the incredible feedback, all of which was very sound and none of it debasing to a 'newb.' :)

 

If I can, I'll put the encounter into a framework - and I feel like Hugh was at my table last night with his response, it seemed so on point with us last night.

 

So, having saved the target from elimination from a public nightclub, the team rushed their 'client' to a safehouse; a chemical facility, deep into the night awaiting extraction.  The encounter setup was a 4th team member who couldn't show last night waited in the vehicle (GM opportunity to cause confusion).  When they lost contact with their unavailable driver they split the group - and after a team member was returning from the car to the rest of the party he was pounced upon (surprised) on a metal scaffold at the top of the stairs and shoved the player down the stairs, and fled into the night using stealth.  Another Team member left the client to assist and he (just as Hugh predicted) took a legsweep to the head (I do use hit locations, the players love it) and folded quickly due to the stun modifier, and I felt like the players just couldn't recover.  I knew the team was in trouble so I had him flee again, only to backtrack under the guise that "I can take this team."  This flee was aimed to allow them time to recover, but it honestly appeared to have come down to hit locations from there.  The brute tended to strike the torso more than the team, who only hit the brute's extremities so the stun factor appeared to be in the Brute's favor strictly due to rolls.  In the end, he killed one while the other two fled.  I wasn't sure if this was solid, thus my reaching out to the community.

 

Brute: OCV 7, DCV 7, SPD 4, rPD 5 - 7with vest;

 

team:2x OCV 7, DCV 6, SPD 4, rPD3 - 5 with vest

        1x OCV 7, DCV 5, SPD 4, rPD3 - 5 with vest

 

The only true advantage I gave the Brute was +4 CSLs with his legsweep and +2 CSLs with his sword figuring these increases to dmg and the extra 2 rPD would offset the advantage from the 3:1 odds.

 

because I'm a stat nerd, I do intend to use Cantriped's CR formula this weekend to determine where on the spectrum the landed in reference to the Brute.  Last comment, Brute also has several non-combat skills, so he wasn't a complete Terminator.

 

thanks for all your time guys, I valued everyone's input.

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For each new campaign I create a spreadsheet that takes the PCs' Characteristics and Defenses, and calculates how much damage they'll take from an average hit at each DC. So I know an attacker who does 2d6K will on average get X BODY and Y STUN through with each hit, which will KO the PC in this many hits, or kill him in that many hits, or will Stun him with a lucky Vitals shot, etc. Compare their CVs like Hugh described, and that gives you a sense of how long that will take.

 

The converse spreadsheet lists the PCs' primary attacks and compares them against different Defenses, so I have an idea how long it will take them to hurt the villain. It's not an exact science, but I find it works well enough.

I've written a Java app that does basically the same thing.

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Xyled76 didb you notice that you can target specific regions of hit locations and target specific hit loxations? For example the Brute flushed with confidence tries to legsweep in the head again another player. This time because you're calling out head shot, its -8 OCV to hit. Or you call a high shot which is (iirc) -4. That way you could have made it unlikely for the Brute to take out other characters. (I'm assuming he doesn't have enough OCV and csl to still get a 11- or better!)

 

Also look at the maneuver-Roll with Punch. I forget it too but it allows you to reduce damage taken.

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I'm with you, Hugh. I have a 225-point priest in my game whose entire combat repertoire consists of "Um, I dodge?" He'd get his clock cleaned by a well-balanced warrior of half those points, or a min-maxed warrior of less than that.

 

For each new campaign I create a spreadsheet that takes the PCs' Characteristics and Defenses, and calculates how much damage they'll take from an average hit at each DC. So I know an attacker who does 2d6K will on average get X BODY and Y STUN through with each hit, which will KO the PC in this many hits, or kill him in that many hits, or will Stun him with a lucky Vitals shot, etc. Compare their CVs like Hugh described, and that gives you a sense of how long that will take.

 

The converse spreadsheet lists the PCs' primary attacks and compares them against different Defenses, so I have an idea how long it will take them to hurt the villain. It's not an exact science, but I find it works well enough.

Are your spreadsheets available in the Downloads section?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Inquiring palindromedaries want to know

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"Legsweep" to the "head".

 

Wouldn't that be a roundhouse kick? :)

 

That's exactly why I don't use hit locations, but if the players love them then they have to expect this to happen from time to time.  I didn't see base damage listed there but the combat stats were fine (as long as the brute wasn't using his +4 CSL with legsweep for OCV).

 

Looks like tactics as much as anything, really.  The brute was outnumbered (even 2:1) and didn't have an area of effect attack - whoever he was attacking should have been Martial dodging or blocking while the other guy pounded on him.  If he switched targets then they switch roles.

 

If they did that and could harm him at all on a consistent basis then only dumb luck (like an attack roll of 3 and another boot to the head) could have saved the brute.

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For folks new to the system, it can be surprising how a little variance in something like CV can have a big impact.

I would say it is surprising that a 3 point CV spread is a huge variance, not a little one. Most new Hero players are coming from the d20 world where a 2 point bonus is 'meh' and a 4 point bonus is just enough to get one's attention. Realizing that a 4 point departure from a baseline 11- in Hero moves from "succeed 62.5% of the time" to "succeed 94.74% of the time" if it's a bonus, or "succeed 6.94% of the time" if it's a penalty can take a while.

 

Brute: OCV 7, DCV 7, SPD 4, rPD 5 - 7with vest;

 

team:2x OCV 7, DCV 6, SPD 4, rPD3 - 5 with vest

 

1x OCV 7, DCV 5, SPD 4, rPD3 - 5 with vest

 

The only true advantage I gave the Brute was +4 CSLs with his legsweep and +2 CSLs with his sword figuring these increases to dmg and the extra 2 rPD would offset the advantage from the 3:1 odds.

That looks (gut feel) like a tough opponent, but not a guaranteed win. Assuming skill levels to damage, the heroes should hit 62.5% of the time - the Brute will hit more reliably, and punch more damage through, but he's attacked twice for every shot he gets in (even assuming he stuns every opponent he hits). He can swap levels to DCV and be much tougher to hit, or to OCV, and hit even more reliably.

 

One issue is the volatility of hit locations - if the players want that volatility, they need to realize it sometimes works against them.

 

The second is tactics.

 

"Wow, he crushed Charlie with that head shot" Did they just keep standing and bashing (standard d20 tactics)?

 

What if, instead, they delayed?

 

Brute targets one - he uses his delayed phase to Dodge (or Block, or dive for cover, etc.), significantly reducing Brutes chance to hit.

 

The other attacks Brute, knowing he won't be the target of an attack before he can at least Abort to a defensive tactic.

 

Meanwhile, the third PC is recovering from being Stunned, maybe taking some recoveries to build his STUN back up, before getting back into the fight.

 

Once he is combat-ready, for every attack Brute tries to get past a defensive response, the PC's are attacking twice. If a PC does take a hit, they back away and let the other two cover while he recovers.

 

Now how do we like Brute's chances?

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I'd love to see it. Is it in the files section?

 

Me too!

 

No, not in the files section.  I wrote it for my own use never really intending to share it.  So, the UI is kind of clunky and there's zero documentation.  I'll PM you guys a google drive link if you want to play with it.

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Are your spreadsheets available in the Downloads section?

No, for basically the same reasons Netzilla states. And of course I keep tweaking them with every new campaign. I keep meaning to do a Ready For Prime Time version that I can post here, so maybe I should get around to actually doing that.

 

Re Hit Locations: I like them myself, and it seems my players do too. (I ask at the start of each new campaign if they want to use Hit Locs or not.) Overall I feel like they really add something to Heroic games in terms of making the game feel more real* and 3-dimensional. And it's easier to roleplay wounds in specific locations compared to abstracted damage. I still remember my very first FH game back in 1985: my thief was fighting a warrior who I knew outclassed me, and I wasn't strong enough to get serious damage past his chest armor. But his leg armor was lighter, and I managed to score an impairing leg wound and use that to outmaneuver him.

 

The downside is Hit Locations also add another layer of randomness. I mitigate that a bit in our games by letting characters allocate CSLs to Hit Location Rolls (before the dice are rolled), or by spending a Hero Point (after the dice are rolled) to "pull" their Hit Loc roll by 1 for every 2 above what they needed to hit.

 

 

* Not necessarily the same as more realistic...

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