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Is the Star Wars Galaxy Funtionally Illiterate?


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#61 Tech priest support

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 08:02 PM

Another instance of reading was in ESB when solo is apparently reading a data screen in the falcon's cockpit and sees Londo is nearby.

As to droids, one person made a reff to c3po moving slowly. C-3po was a very restrictive costume with a man in it. That was all the faster he could move. Later movies had faster droids because they were CGI.

Did droids have the 3 laws? I don't think so. They had to be fitted with restraining bolts, a droid tortured leia on the death star and there was a bounty hunter droid named IG 88. Also of course the droid soldiers. Then we had rogue one with k2so, my favorite character moving quick quickly and shooting people easily.

Star wars wasn't deeply thought out, they didn't consider things like the 3 laws and such. If you want deeply thought out star wars storied, read "heir to the empire" by Timothy zahn.
"You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views. Which can be very uncomfortable if you're one of the facts that needs altering." The Doctor.

#62 Christopher

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 05:08 AM

R2 lying:

Most of the ways a Astromech could lie in, would destroy the ship. So self-preservation kicks in.

And first they would need a reason to lie. Memory Wiping and only turning them on when the shield generators are offline really helps with delaying that. For all we know, R2 had not been memorywiped in decades when Phanton Menace came around.

You usually memory wipe them for security concerns (they know stuff like Hyperlane paths) alone. So one being indendant enough to not.

Most importantly they did wipe 3PO but not R2 at the end of EP 3.

 

C-3PO lying:
I still hold the possibility that on the Deathstar, any lie was just "faithfully translating what R2-D2 said".

With both parts of the pair, the ability to follow the 3 laws was "eroded" by long not-wiping. Wich is exatly why people keep wiping.

But a lot of my knowledge comes from Legends. So we have to see if it will still hold.

Still, you really do not want a translator droid to lie to you during a negotiation. Wars could start that way.

 

 

Restraining Bolts:

There are odd cases where you can not wipe the droid right now.

Could be you are simply out of time (EP 4) or want to preserve the memory (that one Clonewars Episode*)

And even the Restaining bolt themself do not seem to work as absolutes:

 

Droid reliability:
They are reliable enough if you regulary wipe their memory. Wich is why that became Standart Operating Procedure.

Not doing that is frowned upon. Even Obi-Wan critizises Anakin for not doing that to R2 regulary.

 

And Mace Windu was highly critical of the Faith Anakin put in R2 at first:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFp8cNMEt9E

 

*Clonewars is considered higher level Canon right now. T Level at least.



#63 Christopher

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 05:09 AM

As to droids, one person made a reff to c3po moving slowly. C-3po was a very restrictive costume with a man in it. That was all the faster he could move. Later movies had faster droids because they were CGI.

Even when C3PO was CGI, he still moved noticeably slower then a Seperatist Droid. Yes, compared to 3PO a Seperatist Droid was not the worst at something.



#64 massey

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 03:54 PM

My guess is that Star Wars droids are generally programmed to be loyal to their owner.  Doesn't always take, but that's their default setting.  Even if you memory wipe them, it's probably like the flashy thing in Men in Black.  The personality doesn't really change.  3PO is still an uptight snob.  R2 is still independent and doesn't listen to people.  So wiping their memory wouldn't really be like killing them.  After all, it's played for laughs in one of the prequels.  That's also why droids don't completely freak out if they know you're going to wipe their minds.  They aren't going to die, they're just going to forget what happened recently.  Not that they're normally super-concerned with human activities anyway.  There may be an element of "oh good, I'm gonna forget that damn 'Gangnam Style' song my last master made me listen to again and again."

 

Default droid settings probably give them a different emotional makeup than humans.  They don't seem to need sex, or food.  A lot of them seem pretty happy to just serve their purpose.  3PO likes being a protocol droid.  R2 would normally like being an astromech droid, but that's not really what he is.  He's a spy.  Your average droid is doing exactly what he wants to do.  "Ambition" isn't really a part of a droid's emotional package.



#65 Tech priest support

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 05:02 AM

Even when C3PO was CGI, he still moved noticeably slower then a Seperatist Droid. Yes, compared to 3PO a Seperatist Droid was not the worst at something.


By the time c3po could be CGI his slow motion had been established. K2so was free to be as fast and agile as a human.
"You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views. Which can be very uncomfortable if you're one of the facts that needs altering." The Doctor.

#66 Christopher

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 10:56 AM

By the time c3po could be CGI his slow motion had been established. K2so was free to be as fast and agile as a human.

K2SO was a sort-off Combat droid. Imperial Make in particular. Less mobility limitations made sense for those cases.

I asume he had more loyality hardware/programming. And was normally under a very strict Mind Wipe shedule, to avoid any independance.

 

I can not remember if K2SO was reprogrammed or independant. But in any case, it showcases nicely why you do not want a droid that good at killing people without tight control. He never even got a Blaster most of the movie.



#67 Tech priest support

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 03:49 AM

The rebels reprogrammed him, at least that one did.
"You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views. Which can be very uncomfortable if you're one of the facts that needs altering." The Doctor.

#68 bigdamnhero

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 10:53 AM

Right. Although it was also specifically stated that his "quirky" personality was a side effect of his reprogramming, which implies that such things are not simply the result of accumulating too much memory.

 

Also, while it appears that K2SO is bound to follow Cassian's orders, IIRC at the end he is able to defy Cassian's direct orders re sealing the door to the data vault and holding off the Imperials in a suicidal last stand. In fact now that I think about it, he also defied Cassian's order earlier to stay on the ship simply because he "got bored." (Tho that could be interpreted as an excuse when the real reason was he knew they'd likely need his help.)


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#69 massey

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 03:12 PM

Part of the safeguards against droids taking over would be that 1) they don't seem to have "internet" like access, and 2) they each have their own distinct personalities.

 

R2-D2 gets information from Cloud City's main computer, but from the description he's talking to another AI.  3PO even tells him not to trust strange computers.  It seemed like he was more talking on the phone to another person than he was directly accessing information.  He is able to shut down the garbage disposal on the Death Star, but that doesn't seem like it would be a high priority system.  Most droids seem to have to speak to one another vocally to transfer information, and some of them are jerks.  Just because you're a droid, that doesn't mean you like other droids.

 

Data transfer speeds in Star Wars also appears to be pretty slow.  The only time we see a fast connection is in Rogue One where they use that giant satellite dish.  The rest of the time it looks like they use a physical data chip to transfer info.  If a droid's brain can't be "uploaded" into another form, that gives them some limitations very similar to humans.


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#70 Christopher

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 04:51 AM

Part of the safeguards against droids taking over would be that 1) they don't seem to have "internet" like access, and 2) they each have their own distinct personalities.

 

R2-D2 gets information from Cloud City's main computer, but from the description he's talking to another AI.  3PO even tells him not to trust strange computers.  It seemed like he was more talking on the phone to another person than he was directly accessing information.  He is able to shut down the garbage disposal on the Death Star, but that doesn't seem like it would be a high priority system.  Most droids seem to have to speak to one another vocally to transfer information, and some of them are jerks.  Just because you're a droid, that doesn't mean you like other droids.

 

Data transfer speeds in Star Wars also appears to be pretty slow.  The only time we see a fast connection is in Rogue One where they use that giant satellite dish.  The rest of the time it looks like they use a physical data chip to transfer info.  If a droid's brain can't be "uploaded" into another form, that gives them some limitations very similar to humans.

Regarding transfer Speeds:
It was the complete technical drawing of a moon sized space station. I once saw the entire energy/water transfer plan for a small city. The DS plans had more detail and data just around one of the hangars. And it was a few orders of magnitude bigger then even those hangars.

I doubt the plan would be measured in something as small as petabytes. That is the kind of plan size, that not even the SW galaxy handles regulary. The plan of a 1.6 km Star Destroyer might be a "size you normally handle".

Most likely thoe plans were some kind of humongous database that could be read to view (parts of) the plan - usually the small part your team needed right now.

 

Avoiding that droids can just swap bodies - or build a child droid that lacks a hardware limit - does a ton to make AI save. Especially if knowledge of how to do the unsafe hardware was lost to time. "Subagent safety" is a really big part of AI safety and dodging it makes the whole mess actually doable.

A "human brain" simulation would propably be save. The issue is, that "a human brain simulation" is some of the stuff we can only build later after we have a ton of experience with non-brain-sim-AGI. It is the longterm goal, not a "we can do it right now" solution.

https://youtu.be/eaYIU6YXr3w



#71 Tech priest support

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 06:16 AM

Regarding transfer Speeds:
It was the complete technical drawing of a moon sized space station. I once saw the entire energy/water transfer plan for a small city. The DS plans had more detail and data just around one of the hangars. And it was a few orders of magnitude bigger then even those hangars.
I doubt the plan would be measured in something as small as petabytes. That is the kind of plan size, that not even the SW galaxy handles regulary. The plan of a 1.6 km Star Destroyer might be a "size you normally handle".
Most likely thoe plans were some kind of humongous database that could be read to view (parts of) the plan - usually the small part your team needed right now.

Avoiding that droids can just swap bodies - or build a child droid that lacks a hardware limit - does a ton to make AI save. Especially if knowledge of how to do the unsafe hardware was lost to time. "Subagent safety" is a really big part of AI safety and dodging it makes the whole mess actually doable.
A "human brain" simulation would propably be save. The issue is, that "a human brain simulation" is some of the stuff we can only build later after we have a ton of experience with non-brain-sim-AGI. It is the longterm goal, not a "we can do it right now" solution.
https://youtu.be/eaYIU6YXr3w

Touching on what you said above it is interesting how the rebels found the deathstar's weakness so easily and quickly. Good god that was a hell of a database as you suggested. Maybe they had a super intelligent computer analyzing it at an ungodly rate of speed.

Of course rogue one retconned this a little. But going by the original movie it was...incredible they found it so easily. I suppose it might have been obvious triggering the main reactor would be the way to go, and they found the exhaust port but it also makes it hard to believe the empire didn't know it was there. Again, before rogue one.

Then again about information, in 1917 a man carrying information was carrying paper, basically. How much information couild he carry? Hell, I routinely carry a 32gb flash drive as a matter of course. And I could easily get one that was much bigger. My smartphone has gigabytes of information storage. I could carry several dozen flash drives in a belt pack.

So in a universe like star wars, hell, the death Star plans may not be that big a database relatively speaking.
"You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views. Which can be very uncomfortable if you're one of the facts that needs altering." The Doctor.

#72 massey

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 07:41 AM

Touching on what you said above it is interesting how the rebels found the deathstar's weakness so easily and quickly. Good god that was a hell of a database as you suggested. Maybe they had a super intelligent computer analyzing it at an ungodly rate of speed.

Of course rogue one retconned this a little. But going by the original movie it was...incredible they found it so easily. I suppose it might have been obvious triggering the main reactor would be the way to go, and they found the exhaust port but it also makes it hard to believe the empire didn't know it was there. Again, before rogue one.

Then again about information, in 1917 a man carrying information was carrying paper, basically. How much information couild he carry? Hell, I routinely carry a 32gb flash drive as a matter of course. And I could easily get one that was much bigger. My smartphone has gigabytes of information storage. I could carry several dozen flash drives in a belt pack.

So in a universe like star wars, hell, the death Star plans may not be that big a database relatively speaking.

 

In the original movie, we didn't know how long travel took.  In Rogue One, travel is shown to take only a few minutes (they receive info that the Imperial base is being attacked, and they send reinforcements that show up before the fight is over).  But in the original film, we don't have anything that indicates travel times.  They could have been on that planet analyzing the Death Star plans for weeks.  Everything is paced in a way that allows the possibility of significant downtime.



#73 Christopher

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 09:44 AM

In the original movie, we didn't know how long travel took.  In Rogue One, travel is shown to take only a few minutes (they receive info that the Imperial base is being attacked, and they send reinforcements that show up before the fight is over).  But in the original film, we don't have anything that indicates travel times.  They could have been on that planet analyzing the Death Star plans for weeks.  Everything is paced in a way that allows the possibility of significant downtime.

I might missremember it but did not Vader say "This day has seen the end of Kenobi. Now it will see the end of the Rebellion". That indicates they had less then 1 day between fleeing the death star, comming up with their plan and blowing it up.

Wich oddly is something that never occurred to me before. I too thought that the traveltimes for the Deathstar might have been humongous.

 

It could be they had as heroic "plan analysers" as they had pilots. But the retconning from Rougue One helps a lot to explain this.


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#74 Christopher

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 09:59 AM

Okay, found the part. Vader did indeed say it "was the same day".

 

So unless there is something in the books to the movie about him streching the definition of day and it actually taking longer, how they found the weakness so quickly was a plothole.



#75 massey

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 10:56 AM

Aha, good point.



#76 Tech priest support

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 01:22 PM

Yes I could assume it was realized that the way to kill something that damn big was to cause it's main reactor to explode and they worked from that.

Other things to do might be to attack the main weapon, attack the dish, fire high yield warheads down the emitters on the dish. Maybe the empire had a defense against that.

In a higher sf setting creating a quantum singularity (micro black hole) on it could have destroyed it as the black hole consumed it's mass and grew.

But apparently both sides had crack analytical teams. I mean that scene were the flunky advised tarkin "We've analyzed their attack, sir, and there is a danger." OK the empire had some good smart thinkers there. I can imagine that scene inside the deathstar during the attack...

In a tactical combat analysis center a group of officers and studying the attack. "Hmm, the rebels sent a squad of Y wings down the trench. Hell of a move, dangerous, no room to maneuver in there. What were they after? Let's see, they skimmed the trench, and...fired proton torpedoes here, but why? What were they aiming at.... Get me a view of that area! Zoom in....what's that? There, that hexagonal opening....thermal exhaust port....get me full schematic of that....straight into the main reactor...HOLY XXXXING SACRED MOTHER OF GOD!!!"

The death star was a stupid idea to begin with but we can blame it on palpatine being evil, he wanted a terror weapon because he was an evil prick with....inadequacy issues. OK stupid idea but palpatine ordered it. At least the empire had some brains in it that were able to figure out what the rebels were up to fast.
"You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views. Which can be very uncomfortable if you're one of the facts that needs altering." The Doctor.

#77 pinecone

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 02:08 PM

Shoot, this is the Star Wars universe, maybe they just use crystal dowsing...they can't even conceive of something as wonky and slow as using an search program.... :yes:


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#78 bigdamnhero

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 10:25 PM

Sidebar: I was just listening to a podcast the other day talking about how reading Braille is becoming a lost art among the younger generation of the blind and visually impaired, because everyone has a smartphone that can just read stuff to you verbally. Numerous advantages, of course, especially in terms of cost - Braille printing ain't cheap as I understand it, and Braille books are bulky as hell. So from that standpoint, it's a huge win. But the article also pointed out that by not learning to read, blind kids are not learning to write at anything approaching an age-appropriate level. Even with high-quality voice-to-text programs, they don't necessarily understand proper grammar, sentence structure, etc and tend to "write the way they talk." Seems to me that could be overcome with different instructional methods, and they didn't offer any evidence that they're learning less from screen readers than they would from Braille. But I still found it interesting.


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#79 Christopher

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 04:46 AM

Sidebar: I was just listening to a podcast the other day talking about how reading Braille is becoming a lost art among the younger generation of the blind and visually impaired, because everyone has a smartphone that can just read stuff to you verbally. Numerous advantages, of course, especially in terms of cost - Braille printing ain't cheap as I understand it, and Braille books are bulky as hell. So from that standpoint, it's a huge win. But the article also pointed out that by not learning to read, blind kids are not learning to write at anything approaching an age-appropriate level. Even with high-quality voice-to-text programs, they don't necessarily understand proper grammar, sentence structure, etc and tend to "write the way they talk." Seems to me that could be overcome with different instructional methods, and they didn't offer any evidence that they're learning less from screen readers than they would from Braille. But I still found it interesting.

Actually that reminds me of something. Extra History recently did a series on "the Bronze Age Collapse". And the ability to read did come up in it. Inlcuding the emergence of our current Alphabet:

 

Actually, the whole series about the "Bronze Age Collpase" might be interesting. Especially episode deals with the Theory of "Systems Collapse". How a more complex modern System is more robust to minor shocks. But also less to major ones.

This might apply not only to our modern world, but also the whole Star Wars setting.


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#80 bigdamnhero

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 03:00 PM

Actually that reminds me of something. Extra History recently did a series on "the Bronze Age Collapse". And the ability to read did come up in it. Inlcuding the emergence of our current Alphabet:

Ooooo! Hadn't watched that one yet!


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