Help with Generic Heros

[Amorkca]

Just a suggestion; but if you set up Belt as a support character he can do the entangles, change environment, things that slow people down not necessarily stop them in their tracks!

[JmOz]

Okay, hopefuly final round of revisions are up

 

The following are major changes

• Added line to Powers/Tactics describing typical combat phase and the END per turn it would cost after REC (assuming they did it each turn) to all
• Added comment on top speed to all (in MPH and KPH)
• Minor adjustments to most characters attributes

--------

Beast:

• Increased REC
• Removed 0 END from claws

Belt

• Changed Exploding Combat Disc to Acid Capsule

Brick

• Heavily Adjusted Attributes
• Added Life Support
• Reduced Base Leaping, increasing NCM (btw figuring out mph/kph was a pain) 

Blast

• Added END Rec to powers
• Increased NC Flight

 

Tell me what you think all, also how is the layout?

[Hyper-Man]

Nice! 

 

The CSL and Martial Maneuver choices seem a little tight on Belt but I understand the reasoning.

 

The way Leaping was displayed in the Powers section on Brick was initially confusing but I see what you did (purchasing the extra meters directly in the Characteristic Block and buy only the Increased Non Combat Multiple in the Power).  i would suggest putting both the +8m and x32 in Powers to make it less confusing.

 

HM

[JmOz]

Combined +6 CSL seem alot to me...Will look at revising Brick's  Leaping

[Ninja-Bear]

Yeah I too found trying to figure out mph is a pain!

[JmOz]

Not that hard on most (Multiply meters a turn by 0.3 do web search for km to mile conversion).  The problem with leaping was how NCM works with it...

[Cantriped]

Yeah NCM Leaping is a bit of an odd bird. Its the only form of noncombat movement that doesn't increase your actual velocity (instead increasing maximum jump distance)... I sort of wish Swinging worked more like Leaping, and less like unusually cheap Flight.

[JmOz]

I could see Swinging being handled like leaping easily, would also justify the price reduction, personally I feel that both leaping and swinging should be dropped and made limits on flight...however that would be counter productive on leaping,..

[Cantriped]

I think there are enough mechanical distinctions between said modes of movement to justify having separate power entries from Flight (despite being a fanatical adherent to CC/FHC over 6e1&2, I'm not actually riding the 'mechanical reductionism bandwagon').

However, It would make a lot of sense for Swinging to be treated mechanically like Leaping instead of Flight, even given the source material Swinging draws upon (Spider-Man et-al). In both cases there should be mechanically defined limits on the distance covered by a single Leap/Swing*, limits on how/when you can change direction mid-Leap/Swing, and restrictions/assumptions regarding the arc of movement not being in a straight line**.

*(NCM multiplier is a good mechanic for this since it scales with velocity, but can be bought separately to represent the iconic 'hulk-jump' or swinging from an especially long swingline.)

**(Leaping tends to arc upward, while Swinging tends to arc downward. Thus should they realistically require space above/below the leap/swing vector to complete the move.)

 

Perhaps one of my projects will include an Toolkitting Option for "Swinging Like Leaping".

[Hugh Neilson]

Here they are

 

http://jawedel01.wixsite.com/kountry-gaming/copy-of-hero-games

 

Tell me what you think...

Consistent with repeating the link above, I will likely repeat some other items.

 

Beast

 

Still don’t like that double AP. How often will characters have Hardened once? Seems like 35 STUN vs single hardened won’t be a lot different from 28 STUN versus half defenses. Meanwhile, she loses 7 STUN on average against opponents without hardened defenses. Yes, I acknowledge 10d6 is about 12.5 DCs…

 

Even against Brick, 10d6 would do 35 – (5 + 5 +10 =) 15 rather than 8d6 doing 28 – (5 + 5 + 5 =) 13.

 

Belt

 

Another “always slips a bit of BOD past defenses” KA (like Beast’s) seems to suggest BOD damage is expected to be pretty common. Limiting the acid capsule in some way to make it best applied out of combat might be worth considering, but being able to use it on foci adds some versatility.

 

That motorbike can go 300 kph (25m x 8 noncombat x 5 phases per turn x 5 turns per minute). Pretty souped up! Tough to control over 180 kph, though, since his base running still costs END.

 

Down to 10d6 with the Steel Knuckles, but begs the question why one would not bump the slot to 4d6. What about making it 4d6, but using Martial Strike instead of Offensive Strike to cap at 10d6 with better OCV/DCV?

 

The levels allow him to either hit anyone or be virtually impossible to be hit in return (Martial Strike will make that even more an issue). 10 DCV + 1 for Off Strike + 6 for levels = 17 DCV, although a 7 OCV will not hit too often.

 

Why not just make the skill kits Skill Levels and acknowledge this is a “GM Permission” exception to the “no special powers in a framework” rule? If I were strictly enforcing that rule, I doubt I would allow this build as a workaround anyway.

 

For newbie players, maybe some tactical notes on the use of his various options would be good.

 

Blast

 

Still thinking presenting it first leads a newbie to intuit “Full Blast” is the go to attack, even with the tactical note. I am also thinking my go to would become the wide beam, fired from 6 to 8 meters up. Loses 2 DC, but can target multiple opponents and never misses – especially nice for someone with 8 OCV (10 with skill levels). 17 DCV, huh Belt? Surprise! Beast will not be too happy when she uses her 10d6 AP Blast against anyone without Hardened Defenses, either.

 

Bolt

 

Another Penetrating KA.

 

Where do his Martial Arts DCs come from? It looks like they reflect 20 STR instead of 15, or just the Crossbow Club and no STR at all. I think he has an 11d6 Off Strike (3d6 STR + 4d6 Maneuver + 4d6 Crossbow).

 

If I were Belt, I would be very jealous of Bolt in combat. Anything Belt can do, Bolt can do better. Except, maybe that DCV tanking thing. Forget OCV, - he has the Exploding Arrow if need be.

 

He deals 10d6 to a group of opponents with teammates who generally have 10 DC attacks. His Off Strike will come out to 11d6. Mook Buster? He may have the most powerful combat suite of the team.

 

Against most targets, Beast should get a bit more STUN thanks to 8d6 AP vs 10d6 Normal; Belt and Blur can’t compete; Blast has comparable damage but lower OCV; Brick has poor OCV and SPD, plus no versatility.

 

Brain might have a shot – his defenses match Brick’s (albeit with no AP or Impenetrable) and he can stay a long way away. But Bolt only needs to get close with a Flash Arrow and it’s pretty much all over for Brain.

 

Brain

 

I get 3 END with half flight and a 2 END mental attack. I’d be higher up than Blast, generally hovering to minimize extra END usage so I can keep END to 2 per phase as much as possible. Anyone really focuses in? Mind Control to “attack a closer target who is easier to hit”.

 

Overall

 

The CV and Defense spreads are pretty broad. I'd be interested in seeing them played to assess how well my gut reactions play out.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think swinging could easily be described as a form of leaping.  It has basically the same structure and real-world use, just upside down.  You need a launch and landing points, you need clear space between them, its linear, etc.

[Durzan Malakim]

How combat-optimized do you expect these heroes to be? While I'm sure there are Champions games that require and reward role-playing and skill challenges, I suspect most new players will be expecting to join Superhero Fight Club. You don't want to give them an Ang Lee Hulk when they are expecting a "Hulk Smash!" version.

 

Things to consider:

• Beast: Will hate any opponent who can move out of her reach, especially vertically.
• Belt: Will probably not like superhero fight club since he spent nearly 100 character points on skills appropriate to his origin rather than abilities to fight other super heroes.
• Blur: will play like a video game character controlled by one-button. "I press the Passing Strike button again and again forever." Is there no other attack option you can give her?
• Blast: Will probably do well in the inevitable "superheroes fight each other when they first meet" encounter.
• Bolt: Is already well built for superhero fight club, but could be even scarier if he invested fewer points in customization skills.
• Brain: Is already well built for superhero fight club, and can hover just out of Beast's reach and ruin her day.
• Brick: Will also hate any opponent who can move out of his reach, especially vertically.

[JmOz]

Consistent with repeating the link above, I will likely repeat some other items.

 

Beast

 

Still don’t like that double AP. How often will characters have Hardened once? Seems like 35 STUN vs single hardened won’t be a lot different from 28 STUN versus half defenses. Meanwhile, she loses 7 STUN on average against opponents without hardened defenses. Yes, I acknowledge 10d6 is about 12.5 DCs…

 

Even against Brick, 10d6 would do 35 – (5 + 5 +10 =) 15 rather than 8d6 doing 28 – (5 + 5 + 5 =) 13.

 

Belt

 

Another “always slips a bit of BOD past defenses” KA (like Beast’s) seems to suggest BOD damage is expected to be pretty common. Limiting the acid capsule in some way to make it best applied out of combat might be worth considering, but being able to use it on foci adds some versatility.

 

That motorbike can go 300 kph (25m x 8 noncombat x 5 phases per turn x 5 turns per minute). Pretty souped up! Tough to control over 180 kph, though, since his base running still costs END.

 

Down to 10d6 with the Steel Knuckles, but begs the question why one would not bump the slot to 4d6. What about making it 4d6, but using Martial Strike instead of Offensive Strike to cap at 10d6 with better OCV/DCV?

 

The levels allow him to either hit anyone or be virtually impossible to be hit in return (Martial Strike will make that even more an issue). 10 DCV + 1 for Off Strike + 6 for levels = 17 DCV, although a 7 OCV will not hit too often.

 

Why not just make the skill kits Skill Levels and acknowledge this is a “GM Permission” exception to the “no special powers in a framework” rule? If I were strictly enforcing that rule, I doubt I would allow this build as a workaround anyway.

 

For newbie players, maybe some tactical notes on the use of his various options would be good.

 

Blast

 

Still thinking presenting it first leads a newbie to intuit “Full Blast” is the go to attack, even with the tactical note. I am also thinking my go to would become the wide beam, fired from 6 to 8 meters up. Loses 2 DC, but can target multiple opponents and never misses – especially nice for someone with 8 OCV (10 with skill levels). 17 DCV, huh Belt? Surprise! Beast will not be too happy when she uses her 10d6 AP Blast against anyone without Hardened Defenses, either.

 

Bolt

 

Another Penetrating KA.

 

Where do his Martial Arts DCs come from? It looks like they reflect 20 STR instead of 15, or just the Crossbow Club and no STR at all. I think he has an 11d6 Off Strike (3d6 STR + 4d6 Maneuver + 4d6 Crossbow).

 

If I were Belt, I would be very jealous of Bolt in combat. Anything Belt can do, Bolt can do better. Except, maybe that DCV tanking thing. Forget OCV, - he has the Exploding Arrow if need be.

 

He deals 10d6 to a group of opponents with teammates who generally have 10 DC attacks. His Off Strike will come out to 11d6. Mook Buster? He may have the most powerful combat suite of the team.

 

Against most targets, Beast should get a bit more STUN thanks to 8d6 AP vs 10d6 Normal; Belt and Blur can’t compete; Blast has comparable damage but lower OCV; Brick has poor OCV and SPD, plus no versatility.

 

Brain might have a shot – his defenses match Brick’s (albeit with no AP or Impenetrable) and he can stay a long way away. But Bolt only needs to get close with a Flash Arrow and it’s pretty much all over for Brain.

 

Brain

 

I get 3 END with half flight and a 2 END mental attack. I’d be higher up than Blast, generally hovering to minimize extra END usage so I can keep END to 2 per phase as much as possible. Anyone really focuses in? Mind Control to “attack a closer target who is easier to hit”.

 

Overall

 

The CV and Defense spreads are pretty broad. I'd be interested in seeing them played to assess how well my gut reactions play out.

 

As always I love your input, some of the best thought out comments on the thread.

 

BEAST

Yah, I know that mechanically you are right, but when I look at the source material (Timber Wolf, Wolverine and ilk, etc...) I see them being the ones who no matter who they are against being  able to affect the guy.  Maybe not the "strongest" but the most effective.  Defiantly seeing this character the most likely to go "Killer" so the HKA is very appropriate IMO. 

 

BELT

I think you are right that the Acid Capsule needs to be a little less convenient in combat, maybe a real simple get rid of continuous action (Swipe away with hand?) to make it a good way to do a very little body but not have the continuous effect...

 

Yes the Bike is a VERY fast bike, however (and I researched this) it would barely crack the top 5 commercially available...

 

I think you are right about swapping Offensive for Martial strike, changing to skill levels on the kits, and the tactical notes, also a warning that the character is an out of combat monster in exchange for combat efficiency (ie he is the one who will do a lot of the non combat stuff at the cost of not being as good in combat)

 

Blast

Will rearrange the top 3 to put the KA into slot 3, of course the AE would hit friends and foes alike...

 

​Bolt

He does not have a penetrating RKA, and yup his MA is miscalculating should state 7d6 (11d6 w/Crossbow club)...I might have a bias for archers (it's what I usually play)

 

​Brain

Remember you still need to spend END to maintain flight...But yes tactically floating very high up, probably take an extra recovery every turn...

[JmOz]

 

How combat-optimized do you expect these heroes to be? While I'm sure there are Champions games that require and reward role-playing and skill challenges, I suspect most new players will be expecting to join Superhero Fight Club. You don't want to give them an Ang Lee Hulk when they are expecting a "Hulk Smash!" version.

 

Things to consider:

• Beast: Will hate any opponent who can move out of her reach, especially vertically.
• Belt: Will probably not like superhero fight club since he spent nearly 100 character points on skills appropriate to his origin rather than abilities to fight other super heroes.
• Blur: will play like a video game character controlled by one-button. "I press the Passing Strike button again and again forever." Is there no other attack option you can give her?
• Blast: Will probably do well in the inevitable "superheroes fight each other when they first meet" encounter.
• Bolt: Is already well built for superhero fight club, but could be even scarier if he invested fewer points in customization skills.
• Brain: Is already well built for superhero fight club, and can hover just out of Beast's reach and ruin her day.
• Brick: Will also hate any opponent who can move out of his reach, especially vertically.

 

Some good points in here.  A lot of characters do have glaring weaknesses, kind of buy design. 

 

Beast: defiantly has a problem with flyers...her and Brick could always figure out some kind of combat maneuver to help the two of them deal with that kind of opponent as a team...Maybe Brick could pick her up and throw her at the guy or something

 

Belt: Will be adding a note that he is a noncombat monster at the cost of combat abilities.  Been in a game where no one has taken a lot of skills?  Every team needs the skill guy as much as the "Strong guy"

 

Blur: Yes a bit of a one trick monkey

[Ninja-Bear]

Jmoz I agree with you with the double AP on Beast. That's what's I was thinking too.

[Ninja-Bear]

With Blur you could put a note how typically speedsters use move bus and multiple move bys. Perhaps just a page reference.

[Ninja-Bear]

Also Jmoz aren't your generics built to be useful in your game world? There's nothing wrong with that if it is. I would suggest though explaining what the campaign rules are for that game. This way they can better see why some of the builds are built the way they are. That they were built with a guideline in mind and not in a void.

[Hugh Neilson]

I agree with Ninja-Bear on the guidelines issue. The early versions had high DCs to defenses - that could be oversight (and they were toned down in the later versions) or the desired game style (one good hit and the target is likely out, so Dodges, Blocks and First Strikes are more important).

 

How lethal is the game expected to be? Half the team with RKAs makes more sense in a game expecting some bloodshed than in a classic Four Colour Supers game. How common are Hardened Defenses? Double AP makes more sense if a third of opponents can be expected to have Hardened Defenses than if it is a rare selection. Even the "mook enemy to Supers enemy" ratio can make a lot of difference.

 

What is a standard OCV and DCV, with what expected range? What are the Super Averages, and Great, and Maximum levels for OCV, DCV, defenses, attacks, etc.?

 

I'm not sure Belt is combat-ineffectual. He can reach a decent OCV and DCV with his Martial Arts. But maybe his Multipower attacks should focus on things other characters can't do (the smoke pellet works - maybe a small Flash, a small Drain, etc., to "debuff" opponents for his teammates rather than a tiny Throwing Disk).

 

I suspect most characters will have a default attack. On occasion, Blur might Disarm or Trip, but usually Passive Strike. I can see Belt using a lot of Off Strikes in combat. Beast will use the AP Claws, and Brick will default to Strike, maybe Grab. Characters like Bolt will have a lot of options, but many characters have their go-to in combat.

[JmOz]

Also Jmoz aren't your generics built to be useful in your game world? There's nothing wrong with that if it is. I would suggest though explaining what the campaign rules are for that game. This way they can better see why some of the builds are built the way they are. That they were built with a guideline in mind and not in a void.

Actually not really.  My game world uses a number of house rules that I felt would "get in the way" of them being generally useful, or would insight commentary I did not want for this project.  While my world has been in development for about twelve years however so some no doubt got in to it...

 

As for guidelines, I will post them when I go updating again but just so you guys know what they are

 

10-12 DC---Average 11

16-30 Init (dex)---Average 23

4-7 Speed--- Average 5.5

6-12 CV---Average 9 (Not including CSL)

20-30 Def---Average 25 (no real guidelines on resistant)

 

As I was trying to make them as useful as I could for many different types of games, I did use a wide net on abilities (ala the KA's).  For inspiration look at 80-90's Titans, X-men, and Avengers

[JmOz]

Okay updates up. 

 

Flipped Blasts slot 1 and 3, as Hugh pointed out it makes it less the "go-to", but keeps them in order (Weak, Standard, Full)

 

Fixed Bolt's MA damage

 

Did something a little flavorful and complex on belt (His HA is now a compound power of two HA, one w/ boostable Charges, one 0 End).  Stressed the importance of CSL's and commented on each piece of equipment in Equipment MP.  Combat disc is noted as not being overly effective but thematic

[Ninja-Bear]

I think that they are very useful!

[Hyper-Man]

Okay updates up. 

 

Flipped Blasts slot 1 and 3, as Hugh pointed out it makes it less the "go-to", but keeps them in order (Weak, Standard, Full)

 

Fixed Bolt's MA damage

 

Did something a little flavorful and complex on belt (His HA is now a compound power of two HA, one w/ boostable Charges, one 0 End).  Stressed the importance of CSL's and commented on each piece of equipment in Equipment MP.  Combat disc is noted as not being overly effective but thematic

 

Impressive.

 

Do you plan on letting Blur upgrade their Martial Dodge to a Flying Dodge? Is limiting her normal Running to no-noncombat really worth -6 points?

It doesn't look like all of Blast's Multipower Slots reflect the Unified Power Limitation in their costs (many still show as 6 real points).  And is a 5d6 RKA really something you want a character to start with (even with a total CvK)?

Belt still shows Offensive Strike instead of Martial Strike his CSL choices.

Several characters need further updates in the Characteristic Block displays of *Lightning Reflexes.

 

It looks like you are trying to keep from going too detailed on some things like Self Contained Breathing for Belt and Brick.  In the case of Belt it sure seems like he could have some 'filters'.  If it's an opportunity for the player to improve with XP it makes sense.

 

HM

[JmOz]

Thank you for the comments.  I really have no intentions for the characters, they are just a resource for anyone who wants to use them, what happens after they start is up to them and their GM.

 

BLUR: Passing strike is the only CC Fmove.  If a player wants to change the MA I would suggest Passing Disarm and Flying dodge instead, with one less CSL, but like I said I was going for strictly CC. 

As for No NCM on the base running, when the base running is 30m then that is how the -1/4 lim plays out.  I think that in play it is probably worth it, considering that she is spending 18 points for the ability to keep her "normal running".  It might be easier to digest if I placed the +15 she is buying in running under powers as well

 

Blast's MP is 75 AP, -1/4 brings it to 60 or 6f, 5f with some limitations

[JmOz]

Just wondering if anyone has used any of them, and if so how did it go?

[Cantriped]

I couldn't use them directly because my next campaign is going to be Low-Powered Superheroes, but I did take some ideas from your examples when I wrote my own Low-Powered examples. For example, my speedster can similarly just barely break the sound barrier, but has a lower Combat Velocity (which is reasonable considering the difference in point totals).