Character creation cards

[Brian Stanfield]

High Rock Press (I think) posted an upcoming production schedule a while back that announced character creation cards for Champions. That page is gone, and the news posted on this site is gone too. Does anyone have any idea if that project is still a go?

[Ninja-Bear]

I don't know but I remember seeing those postings so if they are gone, I'm guessing the cards are no longer being Perseus. My 2 cents.

[Sketchpad]

You mean this one?

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94419-news-from-high-rock-press/

[Brian Stanfield]

You mean this one?

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94419-news-from-high-rock-press/

 

Ah, yes, thanks for that. The link to High Rock Press's page is dead, however, and this is more what I'm concerned with. Not only is there no news, the old announcement is nowhere to be found anymore. Does this have anything to say about the production schedule?

[Sketchpad]

Ah, yes, thanks for that. The link to High Rock Press's page is dead, however, and this is more what I'm concerned with. Not only is there no news, the old announcement is nowhere to be found anymore. Does this have anything to say about the production schedule?

I would recommend contacting HRP with that. Perhaps via their Facebook page if you have access?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I kind of like the idea of this, but I'm not sure how to go about producing such a thing.  Using it for Fantasy Hero would be handy as I have a modular concept for character creation in the works:

 

race (base line)

profession (skills/abilities)

personality (complications)

background (stats)

 

Not sure how well it would work with cards though.  Plus, artwork, etc.

[Brian Stanfield]

I kind of like the idea of this, but I'm not sure how to go about producing such a thing.  Using it for Fantasy Hero would be handy as I have a modular concept for character creation in the works:

 

race (base line)

profession (skills/abilities)

personality (complications)

background (stats)

 

Not sure how well it would work with cards though.  Plus, artwork, etc.

 

It seems like you could use something like the Superhero Gallery from Champions 6e pretty easily for Fantasy Hero. Even more so with race/class/skills/weapon familiarities. I could even see these become template cards with lists of options to choose from with secondary cards or something like that.

[Doc Democracy]

I can only see it working if they made a decision right from the start about the power level, there are a lot of assumptions to be made. However, the modern game industry means there are people that can produce stuff for you that could provide pretty cool effects.

 

Check out the gloom card game, transparent cards that layer up. I can see small card holders (to keep stacks together. You have a core power card with a few stats on it, like cost and end and damage. You layer advantages and limitations that overlay the stats but leave the core details showing. It could be interesting...

[Nolgroth]

I kind of like the idea of this, but I'm not sure how to go about producing such a thing.  Using it for Fantasy Hero would be handy as I have a modular concept for character creation in the works:

 

race (base line)

profession (skills/abilities)

personality (complications)

background (stats)

 

Not sure how well it would work with cards though.  Plus, artwork, etc.

 

Wow. I have a similar one, though mine is Race > Cultural > Archetype/Class.

[Brian Stanfield]

I can only see it working if they made a decision right from the start about the power level, there are a lot of assumptions to be made. However, the modern game industry means there are people that can produce stuff for you that could provide pretty cool effects.

 

Check out the gloom card game, transparent cards that layer up. I can see small card holders (to keep stacks together. You have a core power card with a few stats on it, like cost and end and damage. You layer advantages and limitations that overlay the stats but leave the core details showing. It could be interesting...

 

I was thinking about cards that layered. I can't quite visualize it yet for this situation, but I'd love it if it could work. 

 

What I was thinking was something a little more basic. Let's assume that the goal here is for quickly creating characters without a lot of thought or time spent. Probably for beginners too, who aren't going to be worried about min/maxing every single detail since they won't be familiar with all the minutiae anyway. So keep it simple.

 

There will be a basic card for each power, with the basic information you suggest: damage, END, adders, and cost. Below the basics would be a list of suggested power levels with their costs and stats: pick one. Perhaps on the back of the card would be some common builds with advantages/limitations, etc. Not too much, just enough to give a few suggestions in a very basic way.

 

Each advantage and limitation would have cards as well, with their explanations, adders, etc., and cost modifiers. Maybe some suggested combinations on the back of each one as well. 

 

There could be a separate chart giving a grid of costs and advantages. There is something like this on 6e1, p. 362. Add all the advantages for a power, refer to the chart, then add all the limitations and refer to the chart, bingo! Quick and easy for power builds.

 

Give some ground rules on the point levels, some suggestions on how many powers (perhaps 3 attacks, 1 defense, and 1 utility), then add perks, talents, and complications, and you've got a character. Not as elegant as layered cards (which I love!), but it gets the job done.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I was thinking less of a way to play than a visual way to build characters with.

[Brian Stanfield]

Wow. I have a similar one, though mine is Race > Cultural > Archetype/Class.

 

 

I was thinking less of a way to play than a visual way to build characters with.

 

That's what I'm thinking as well. I'm just looking at quick character generation. It could then be transferred onto a character sheet in a very simplified form without all the build information. 

 

As for Fantasy Hero, I think this could perhaps work in even more interesting ways. Each racial or cultural card could have career/class paths to choose from, commonly used weapons, equipment, and skills, etc. as suggestions. Or it could work the other way around: a "melee fighter" card could have suggestions to build from, a "ranged fighter," rogue, wizard, etc. They could all point to other cards with sets of skills to compliment the "classes" without watering down the options too much. 

 

A more interesting approach would be to build without the classes, but start with a skill set and build from there. In Fantasy Hero this would suggest the openness of the system, but still give some direction to the selection process if the skills are presented in a way that pairs them with other skills commonly taken together.  For example, the lock picking skill could suggest a constellation of related skills on the same card, hinting at (but not overtly pushing) the character archetype of a thief. Maybe a card for each skill with similar information. Spells could simply be pre-made for the time being, with options on how to vary them, with the more technical build information on the back of the cards. 

 

Just some thoughts. I'm just curious to see how they will actually be produced. They were scheduled for Q2 this year: I'm still waiting for the Kickstarter announcement, and hoping!

[Christopher R Taylor]

II really don't like classes or archetypes, but... a lot of people do.  And a lot of people find creativity easier with a sheet of boxes to check off, whereas I prefer a blank sheet of paper and a pencil.  So I'm trying to work out a way to get classes to work in Fantasy Hero in the sense of "pick this guy to be" if you want, and then open ended for people who don't.

 

One reason I love Fantasy Hero is that I don't have to play a "fighter" I can play Fafhrd, the sneaky bard fighter.  And he's not "triple classed" he just picked the parts he wanted and made his own "class".  I've never played a premade class in Elder Scrolls, I've always made my own odd hybrid.   But I think I'm the oddball here and coming up with 15-20 "Classes" people can choose from, including some like the spell sword which Hero does so well (magic-enhanced warrior) might be the way to go.

 

Having cards to make that easier would be something people might like, its something fun and tangible people can hold in their hands and frankly we're a long ways culturally from where we were in the 1970s when a pencil and some dice were great for people.  Now people want crayons and yarn and sparkles like a 5th grader.  My job isn't to like it, its to find ways to reach the customer where they are.

[Tom Cowan]

The big thing with the premade check box system is the speed that you can make an ok character.  Maybe not the perfect for you character but one that is ready to roll.

 

I like the Hero system because of the open ended way it works.

[Brian Stanfield]

II really don't like classes or archetypes, but... a lot of people do.  And a lot of people find creativity easier with a sheet of boxes to check off, whereas I prefer a blank sheet of paper and a pencil.  So I'm trying to work out a way to get classes to work in Fantasy Hero in the sense of "pick this guy to be" if you want, and then open ended for people who don't.

 

One reason I love Fantasy Hero is that I don't have to play a "fighter" I can play Fafhrd, the sneaky bard fighter.  And he's not "triple classed" he just picked the parts he wanted and made his own "class".  I've never played a premade class in Elder Scrolls, I've always made my own odd hybrid.   But I think I'm the oddball here and coming up with 15-20 "Classes" people can choose from, including some like the spell sword which Hero does so well (magic-enhanced warrior) might be the way to go.

 

Having cards to make that easier would be something people might like, its something fun and tangible people can hold in their hands and frankly we're a long ways culturally from where we were in the 1970s when a pencil and some dice were great for people.  Now people want crayons and yarn and sparkles like a 5th grader.  My job isn't to like it, its to find ways to reach the customer where they are.

 

Don't get me wrong: I'm totally with you on this. I started playing Fantasy Hero precisely because there is no class system. The templates offered are only broad strokes to get the imagination going. Whatever it takes to get people to engage the character building process, even in a simplified way, seems like a good thing. At some point they'll realize that building a warrior who can cast spells is, in the end, really no different than building a wizard who can wield a sword.

 

But as we discussed in this thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94641-problems-with-fantasy-hero-complete-and-newbies/), sometimes there is a paradox of choice. The goal, at least in terms of character building cards from what I can see, is to provide a very quick, if cliche, way to create characters. If it starts with "classes" and builds outward, so be it. If it starts with skill sets instead, I'm ok with that approach too. 

 

The important thing is that it's fascinating to consider what it may look like in practice. That would make for a great convention play-test, wouldn't it?

[Christopher R Taylor]

The important thing is that it's fascinating to consider what it may look like in practice. That would make for a great convention play-test, wouldn't it?

 

 

I think that's a great idea.  Hopefully by Next Year's convention season I can have something in place and make people an offer, a signed book or something, if they run it at conventions and test it out for me.

[IndianaJoe3]

It seems like you could use something like the Superhero Gallery from Champions 6e pretty easily for Fantasy Hero. Even more so with race/class/skills/weapon familiarities. I could even see these become template cards with lists of options to choose from with secondary cards or something like that.

 

I do like this idea. I even went as far as creating something similar for fighters (unfortunately lost in a hard drive crash). The biggest complication is that there's no default magic system to draw on for spell casters.

[Brian Stanfield]

I do like this idea. I even went as far as creating something similar for fighters (unfortunately lost in a hard drive crash). The biggest complication is that there's no default magic system to draw on for spell casters.

I think for a quick build for basic characters you'd just use the spells as if they were super-powers. Just pay for the cost, but with all the extra limitations for foci, skill roll, etc., to reduce the cost.

[IndianaJoe3]

I think for a quick build for basic characters you'd just used the spells as if they were super-powers. Just pay for the cost, but with all the extra limitations for foci, skill roll, etc., to reduce the cost.

 

You could do it that way, but you'd probably want to develop the magic system anyway (if only to enable adding on to it later). The ability to select spells from a list (instead of listing them as powers) will also be familiar to players coming from D&D. Of course, then we need a list of spells to select from...

[Ninja-Bear]

Indianajoe3 if you listed all the sample spells from various Hero system rule books, you would have a nice selection.

[Brian Stanfield]

Indianajoe3 if you listed all the sample spells from various Hero system rule books, you would have a nice selection.

 

You wouldn't even have to do all of them. That would be quite a list. Remember, this is just enough for a beginning character, so some samples of each variety would be good enough so they could see how they are built. This would be a good lead-in to playing with the larger ruleset themselves and making their own spells. 

 

As for the supers, the powers are what they're building in the first place. So maybe spell cards could be made as well, where the base power with a few options is listed, and then the advantages/limitations cards would modify the base card. 

 

The possibilities are vast. Trying to keep the card count down would be the next major problem.

[IndianaJoe3]

Indianajoe3 if you listed all the sample spells from various Hero system rule books, you would have a nice selection.

 

I wouldn't really call the HSG a, "magic system." Yes, it's a useful starting place, but I don't get a sense of how magic would work in a campaign from it. 

[Ninja-Bear]

I wouldn't really call the HSG a, "magic system." Yes, it's a useful starting place, but I don't get a sense of how magic would work in a campaign from it.

Not sure why not? The "system" is just a bunch of individual and varied spells.

[rjcurrie]

Just a note. I spoke to Jason Walters at Origins and this is still planned. He hopes to have a revised publication schedule for High Rock Press up soon.

[Ninja-Bear]

Glad I'm wrong!