Palladium Summoners and Follower

[Mr. R]

So from time to time I try to convert games from one system to Hero just to see how it will work out and balance. (hint it doesn't)  One I was having trouble with was the Summoner.  They have a whole set of summoning circles that brings something to them that they can then try to dominate and keep as a servant for the next few months.  

 

So I was thinking of Summon as the power, then realized that after being summoned they are actually made a Follower under Hero rules.  

 

But Followers can get expensive, and the summoner can at higher levels get access to more dominated creature as well as more powerful ones.  As well they can switch out their Followers if they want to go to the trouble.

 

SOOOO.... any ideas on how to price this?  

 

The circle is a focus and immobile, and the process takes time.  But after the summoning, it can be destroyed.  So is this a limitation on the Follower power?  Or just a SFX?

 

I find this interesting and look forward to your responses!

[Tom Cowan]

hmm, 5 point to have 2x the number, so 2 4 8 16 32, +25 points for 32 followers

[Christopher R Taylor]

So from time to time I try to convert games from one system to Hero just to see how it will work out and balance. (hint it doesn't)

 

 

Palladium is kind of infamous for virtually no balance at any level, but yeah, I find that all the time as I do conversions.

[Cantriped]

I would use Summon rather than Follower, unless you are okay with the 'summoned being' gaining Experience (that the 'summoner' doesn't have to pay for), and that in some cases you're supposed to lose the CP spent on them if they die.

 

Conversely, the main issue with using Summon is maintaining control over long periods, Tasks typically being measured in Phases during combat after all. As such my Summoner's often use a "Two-Slot System" for Summoning and Commanding  summoned beings.

The first slot is the ritual that actually brings the creature to this world, so it takes all the Extra Time, Immobile Foci, etc.

The second slot is designed to 'refresh' the summoned being's tasks by 'resummoning' them. This slot requires that the summoned being "Inhabit Locale" and "Arrive Under Its Own Power"; such that instead of creating an endlessly growing pile of summoned beings who hate you, you regain control over the summoned being that you previously summoned (using the first slot). For extra ease of use, you make both slots Friendly (or better), so that the summoned being doesn't get Ego Rolls to resist being commanded. 

[Doc Democracy]

Ooh Cantriped, isn't the second slot a bit cheesy? If you can satisfy the requirements by using another slot in the multipower, then the second slot is not as limited as the limitations might suggest...

 

I can understand if you are GM and decided that is how you wan summoning to work but would it not be more legit to house-rule summoning so there is no need for the second slot?

 

Doc

[Cantriped]

It is a little cheesy, but I prefer cheesy (but arguably legal) constructs to out-right house-rules that may have severe unintended consequences. You can see an example of this construct in my Human Necromancer (shameless plug).

 

It is worth bearing in mind that because the two slots share very few modifiers (usually just Incantations), the cost of the multipower as a whole is much more expensive than buying the more restrictive Summoning power out-right would have. The "Arrives Under Its Own Power (-½), and Must Inhabit Locale (-½)" modifiers on the second slot are still fairly restrictive, because they make the slot worthless if you haven't already used the first slot to summon something which qualifies to be 'summoned' by it (or don't just happen to encounter such beings by chance).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Re-Summoning to continue control makes sense to me, and I use it for my "summoning inanimate objects" rules in the Codex.  Instead of having a will to fight, inanimate objects automatically serve, but for a time period based on their amicability rather than rolls. You can re-summon to keep the vehicle or structure around a bit longer, refreshing the service time.

[csyphrett]

Cantripped is right that a circle is immobile, a focus,  needs gestures and incantations. The summoned creatures depending on their ego and intelligence are not loyal and will screw over the summoner depending on their attitude towards him/her.

 

Additionally the summoner has to win three out of five, I guess in hero would be, ego versus ego combats just to get the thing to follow him in the first place. If the character can't  win the contest, the creature will wait or try to trick the summoner into leaving the circle so that it may kill the summoner.  Destroying the summoner's property and nearby friends and so forth are on the table.

 

Also if the creatures are under control, lesser beings get a chance once a month to break free with modifiers to its ego roll. Greater creatures such as high level demons and such get a chance once every two weeks with ego modifiers and bonuses.

 

Also the behavior of the summoner can automatically trigger the breakout roll battle which will put the summoner back to having to go to the circle for protection if he loses. Not an option if summoner and demon are traveling together.  

 

If the creature breaks free, trouble may ensue depending on how it feels about the summoner.

CES 

[Mr. R]

Cantripped is right that a circle is immobile, a focus,  needs gestures and incantations. The summoned creatures depending on their ego and intelligence are not loyal and will screw over the summoner depending on their attitude towards him/her.

 

Additionally the summoner has to win three out of five, I guess in hero would be, ego versus ego combats just to get the thing to follow him in the first place. If the character can't  win the contest, the creature will wait or try to trick the summoner into leaving the circle so that it may kill the summoner.  Destroying the summoner's property and nearby friends and so forth are on the table.

 

Also if the creatures are under control, lesser beings get a chance once a month to break free with modifiers to its ego roll. Greater creatures such as high level demons and such get a chance once every two weeks with ego modifiers and bonuses.

 

Also the behavior of the summoner can automatically trigger the breakout roll battle which will put the summoner back to having to go to the circle for protection if he loses. Not an option if summoner and demon are traveling together.  

 

If the creature breaks free, trouble may ensue depending on how it feels about the summoner.

CES 

 

THIS.

 

So how do we price this?

[Cantriped]

Most of those mechanics, or similar mechanics, are built into the default rules for Summon; including EGO vs. EGO contests to control the Summon, occasionally having to recontest for control (dependent upon Tasks instead of a fixed duration), and the Summoned being resisting Tasks that conflict with it's Psychological Complications. The only thing that cannot by RAW be done is requiring multiple successful EGO vs. EGO contests to establish control (either consecutively or a ratio (such as 3 out of 5)), although I suppose you could price that addition as a kind of Requires A Roll modifier.

 

However, I hate the whole Ego Roll Contest mechanic to start with, so my example Necromancer (which uses Summon to create/command its skeletons) goes to great lengths to dispense with that mechanic entirely: Taking Amicable on both slots to deny the Summoned Being their initial EGO rolls, and a Limited Power modifier to deny the Summoner subsequent Ego Rolls to maintain control (instead they have to use the Command slot power to regain control of the Summoned Being).

[csyphrett]

I guess that's a good work around. Summoned creatures for a palladium summoner are never amicable. They are always hostile, and they almost always want to kill the summoner. 

CES

[Cantriped]

Taking Hostile (at any level), will cause the summoner to automatically fail the Ego Roll to control the summoned being and gives the summoned being the equivalent of a psychological complication that forces them to dislike/hate the summoner. Meaning unless the summoner has other powers to establish control over the summoned being (typically Mind Control), they are just creating more enemies for themselves with every activation. Builds for such summoners often define the summoning circle defined as an extremely powerful (but very Limited) Dismissable Barrier which protects them from the summoned being until they can find a way to control the being.

 

It is also worth noting that unlike the Summon​ Monster I-IX​ spells in D&D, Summoned Beings in Hero don't automatically disappear after a given amount of time (nor is Summon a legal target for Dismissible in CC/FHC), or you've lost control them. Summon lets you semi-permanently create Game Elements. 

Typically to avoid having 'Bad-Things'^TM happen to them, Summoners pay a slight premium to give their Summoned Beings the ability to return home (usually via one-way EDM), and then use their final task to order them to "Go Home". Otherwise they purchase a Dispel Summon* power which can reliably banish the summoned being with an average or Standard Effect result.

*Per RAW, Summoned Beings never 'naturalize'; so you can banish them via Dispel Summon regardless of whether they are (or were ever) under your command, and regardless of how long it has been since they were summoned.

 

CC/FHC omits mention of the rules regarding Number of Summoned Beings, but the gist of the rules from 6E1 (289) is that a Summoned Being counts against the number of beings you can Summon so long as it will owes you tasks, or is otherwise under your control (explicitly including being subject to Mind Control). So by default you can never control more of a kind of being than you can summon at once.