Strange Charges question

[JmOz]

Can a instant power have continuing charges to represent a time period that the character can use the power

 

SWORD OF ARES

2d6 HKA, Physical manifestation, 3 continuing charges lasting 1 minute

[Cantriped]

Instant Powers typically cannot, no. But a Physical Manifestation (like Delayed Effect) can generally be treated much like the activation of a separate, Constant power that grants you access to the power it is a modifier for. So I would generally allow a character to take modifiers with a "To Manifest" tag that affect activation of the Physical Manifestation instead of activation of the power itself. For example, Gestures To Manifest (-1/4), or 3 Continuing Charges Lasting 1 Minute To Manifest.

[Hugh Neilson]

Well, if it can't be "continuing charges", it can certainly be "limited power" - it is clearly limited. Seems like the same limitation value would be reasonable.

 

Will it cost 0 END, or also be limited that the character has to spend END for each attack?

[Grailknight]

I'd build it with an END Reserve that takes a day to recharge. Once you use it up, that's it until tomorrow.

[Doc Democracy]

Well, if it can't be "continuing charges", it can certainly be "limited power" - it is clearly limited. Seems like the same limitation value would be reasonable.Will it cost 0 END, or also be limited that the character has to spend END for each attack?

Well, charges generally provide 0 END, I would be content to allow this without requiring END expenditure.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Well, charges generally provide 0 END, I would be content to allow this without requiring END expenditure.

I'm looking less at "would I allow it" and more at "vision of the power" - i.e. do you still spend END to swing the sword, or maybe you spend it only on STR. Either way would be fine - just trying to get a handle on the power.

[JmOz]

It was just a simple example,  the actual power I was thinking of was Iron Knucks that included a electric aspect, with it being something like 1 continuing fuel charge lasting 5 minutes, x4 clips....No turning them on and off between phases btw,,,The idea is that even if you did not attack you would still need to spend the "endurance"...

 

But the sword would require Str but not endurance for the actual sword...

[Hyper-Man]

I think we need to know more details about the special effect of this ability.  Is it a 'spell' the character can only use themselves? Can it be handed to someone else?  If the latter the 'rules legal' method to build such an effect would likely be the 'Differing Modifiers method' which can handle the duration issues via UBO.

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

I believe Steve's response to your rules question does not make sense.  It is the simple solution that makes 'sense'. 

 

It reminds me of a similar question I asked here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/50410-re-regeneration-ubo-with-differing-modifiers-followup/?hl=charge

 

Maybe someone could ask Steve to point us in the direction of what RAW method should be used to build the desired SFX.

 

HM

[Armory]

Can a instant power have continuing charges to represent a time period that the character can use the power

 

SWORD OF ARES

2d6 HKA, Physical manifestation, 3 continuing charges lasting 1 minute

 

Until recently I had a similar situation with a PC.  She had five vials of a serum that she injected which granted her 5 minutes of powers such as Density Increase and additional STR.  I don't have her in front of me, but I recall the Limitations Focus (for the vials), Continuing Charges - 5 Minutes, and OIHID.  Apparently it was a technically illegal build, but we both understood how it worked, and it didn't seem overpowering.  I took full advantage of those Limitations during gameplay, so she earned those points.  She has since saved up enough points to make those powers permanent, so I don't have to worry about it anymore.  That's the best time to find out you've got a bad build, after you've ditched it!

[Hugh Neilson]

Until recently I had a similar situation with a PC.  She had five vials of a serum that she injected which granted her 5 minutes of powers such as Density Increase and additional STR.  I don't have her in front of me, but I recall the Limitations Focus (for the vials), Continuing Charges - 5 Minutes, and OIHID.  Apparently it was a technically illegal build, but we both understood how it worked, and it didn't seem overpowering.  I took full advantage of those Limitations during gameplay, so she earned those points.  She has since saved up enough points to make those powers permanent, so I don't have to worry about it anymore.  That's the best time to find out you've got a bad build, after you've ditched it!

Well, let's make it legal:

 

Focus (for the vials), Limited Power - power can be activated and deactivated for 5 Minutes at a time, three 5 minute periods a day, and OIHID

[Cantriped]

Until recently I had a similar situation with a PC.  She had five vials of a serum that she injected which granted her 5 minutes of powers such as Density Increase and additional STR.  I don't have her in front of me, but I recall the Limitations Focus (for the vials), Continuing Charges - 5 Minutes, and OIHID.  Apparently it was a technically illegal build, but we both understood how it worked, and it didn't seem overpowering.  I took full advantage of those Limitations during gameplay, so she earned those points.  She has since saved up enough points to make those powers permanent, so I don't have to worry about it anymore.  That's the best time to find out you've got a bad build, after you've ditched it!

As long as the powers in the suite were constant or persistent, than Continuing Charges is legal.

Density Increase and Growth are Constant, most of your common defense powers are Persistent, and despite having pseudo-instant applications, Characteristics (such as Strength) as a Power are also Persistent. So unless she had something like Hand-To-Hand Attack or Hand Killing Attack bought through the suite, it was perfectly legal*.

*If she did have HtHA or HKA bought trough the suite: the simplest way to represent that legally would be to use the appropriate version of Linked. Linking the Instant powers to the suite of Constant/Persistent Continuing Charged powers such that she could only use the former while under the effects of the latter.

 

The complicated way would be to build a "Granting Power" using Differing Modifiers UBO (which effectively becomes it's own separate constant power), and place Continuing Charges on your ability to Grant the power (but not to use the Granted Power).

[Hyper-Man]

Cantriped,

 

I would love to see your input on the old Healing rules question I asked Steve L. linked to above:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/50410-re-regeneration-ubo-with-differing-modifiers-followup/?hl=charge

 

Here is a working link to the original discussion thread that prompted the question to Steve.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/50375-regeneration-as-a-spell/
 

V1 (ruled illegal)

30 You CAN heal those wounds!: Healing BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection, Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (152 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; used during casting only; -1 1/4), Extra Time (1 Minute, Only to Activate, -3/4), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Others Only (-1/2), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Does Not Work On Some Damage One Type of Damage (-1/4) - END=[1 cc]

 

V2 (legal)

32 You CAN heal those wounds!: Healing BODY 7d6 (standard effect: 21 points), Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection, Decreased Re-use Duration (20 Minutes; +3/4) (166 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; used during casting only; -1 1/4), Extra Time (1 Minute, Only to Activate, -3/4), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Others Only (-1/2), Gradual Effect (1 Minute; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Does Not Work On Some Damage One Type of Damage (-1/4)

[Notes: Functions as 2 Body per Turn Regeneration lasting 1 minute.] - END=17

 

HM

[Cantriped]

From the initial skimming I'm going to hazard a guess and say this was a 5th edition construct?

I've lost most of my old 5th Edition rules memory in favor of CC/FHC (I just can't hold two versions of any given game in my head at the same time); however such a construct (or a similar, slightly better built version) should be legal in CC/FHC. A few things that stand out in that construct:

You have to declare a "reasonably common" condition which prevents Resurrection.

You have to declare a "reasonably identifiable" condition which removes/ends an Uncontrolled Power.

You have to declare a "reasonably common" condition which shuts down a power built with Continuing Charges.

You have to declare the type of damage it doesn't work on.

You don't need both Continuing Charges and Uncontrolled. Uncontrolled functionally gives END-costing powers qualities to those Continuing Charges already possess.

 

In CC/FHC a similar power might look like the following:

​"Just Spit On It":​  Healing 1d6 (SE: 3 BODY), Constant (+1/2), Decreased Re-Use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2), Uncontrolled (Ended By Splashing Mud Or Filth Into The Wound; +1/2) (35 APs); Extra Time (1 Turn; -1 1/4), Incantations To Activate (-1/4). Total Cost:  ​14 points.

Note:  I don't want to restart the "Healing War" from last year; just note that I am not​ halving the effects of Healing BODY in the construct above. So if you do, adjust the construct accordingly. In lieu of Uncontrolled (+1/2), you could use 1 Continuing Charge Lasting 5 Minutes (-1); (30 APs) Total Cost:  8 points.

The former is very expensive to maintain for any length of time (even reducing your SPD to 2), but can be used as often as necessary. The latter option can only be used once per day (unless you adjust the number of charges to taste), but will last long enough for the power to tick 25 times, healing up to 75 BODY!

More than enough for most purposes, though so outrageous I only suggest it for violent, comedic campaigns where characters regularly get nuked from orbit and stand back up, unharmed moments later.

[Tech]

So, how would you write up JmOz's power?

[Hugh Neilson]

Either

 

 

SWORD OF ARES

2d6 HKA, Physical manifestation, 3 continuing charges lasting 1 minute

 

or

 

 

SWORD OF ARES

2d6 HKA, Physical manifestation, may only use for one minute at a time, 3 minutes per day

 

The limitation for "may only use for one minute at a time, 3 minutes per day" would be the same as "3 continuing charges lasting 1 minute".

[mrinku]

You could try using Summon, with appropriate limitations, such that the object is summoned for a fixed time period and can only be called so many times a day. That feels right for a magic sword, but possibly not for other powers.

 

EDIT: Time Limit appears to be the modifier the OP needs. It specifically states that when applied to an instant power you only pay the END when the power is used during the time period specified. A 1 minute Time Limit on an Instant Power is a +3/4 advantage; applying that and 3 Charges (-1 1/4)  gives:

 

2D6 HKA (30) 1 minute Time Limit (+3/4) = 52, 3 charges to activate (-1 1/4) = 23 points

 

... which DOES feel about right. Because the charges are to activate the power and END must paid normally, it all seems to click.

 

For the "Electronux" effect where you *don't* want to spend END, buy it to 0END (+1/2) for 30 points

 

EDIT: On reflection I think buying it with normal charges probably does make it 0 END all the way through the Time Limit, aside from STR END. So if you want to do it with a power that DOES cost end to use, apply the "Costs Endurance" modifier (-1/2 for normal END).

[Hugh Neilson]

So, 2d6 HKA, 1 Minute Time Limit (+3/4), 3 charges to activate (-1 1/4), would be 23 points (ignoring other limitations, like the physically existing sword, etc.). For 7 points, you could have a 2d6 HKA available all the time.

 

If we make it 2d6 HKA, 1 Minute Time Limit (+3/4), 3 charges to activate (-1 1/4), costs END (-1/2), we get a cost of 19.

 

3 Continuing charges of 1 minute each would be -1/2, so a cost of 20, or 15 if you want it to cost END on each usage.

 

The continuing charges are a little bit cheaper, a less cumbersome build and seem pretty reasonable to me

 

WHAT FOLOWS IS THIS IS ALL WRONG - see below - so I edited it to put it in spoiler tags

 

 

especially as this is more limiting (the normal rule is that

 

“A character who’s affected by an attack with Continuing Charges takes damage when the power is first used, and on each of the attacker’s Phases thereafter on the attacker’s DEX.”

 

If we tack on another -1/2 for each use of the power being Instant (the Continuing Charge allowing it to be re-used, but requiring an attack action each time), we get -1 (15 points) or -1 1/2 (12 points) if each use costs END.

 

This seems a reasonable approach, albeit pretty complex in its own right.

 

It does not seem equitable that an attack you can fire at a target, and it will keep doing damage over the next minute, should cost 20 points (and no END) while we charge 19 to be able to make attack rolls with the power, spending END every time, for the same minute. Dropping the cost from 20 to 12 seems at least somewhat more reasonable.

 

[mrinku]

Hugh, a distinction here is that a continuing charge version will only affect one target per charge. Once it's taken out that target, any further attacks it can do are wasted. Also, if you happen to miss, that's it for that charge.

 

The Time Limit version allows you to attack multiple targets over the period of a minute (5 whole turns) and any misses don't affect trying again next phase.

 

However, a big point you've missed is that Continuing Charges can ONLY be applied to Constant and Persistant powers, as per the Charges Table, so you have to make the power Constant first, a +1/2 advantage. Time Limit can be applied to Constant powers, but that's not the effect that was wanted. You need to compare the cost of a regular 3 charge HKA with that of Time Limit applied to an Instant power version. At that point the higher point cost of the latter becomes obvious.

 

I'm a little unsure about what you mean about "For 7 points, you could have a 2d6 HKA available all the time." Is that taking 1 charge per day and a Time Limit of One day or something? Because I get Time Limit One Day (+2) and Once a Day (-2) balancing out on that. Costs END makes the final cost 26 points for a direct comparison to the 2D6 HKA, but if it gets Dispelled you totally lose it until tomorrow, which seems fair for saving 4 points over a regular version.

[Hugh Neilson]

Hugh, a distinction here is that a continuing charge version will only affect one target per charge. Once it's taken out that target, any further attacks it can do are wasted. Also, if you happen to miss, that's it for that charge.

 

The Time Limit version allows you to attack multiple targets over the period of a minute (5 whole turns) and any misses don't affect trying again next phase.

True. But the continuing charge keeps going if you are KOd, or take other actions.

  

However, a big point you've missed is that Continuing Charges can ONLY be applied to Constant and Persistant powers, as per the Charges Table, so you have to make the power Constant first, a +1/2 advantage. Time Limit can be applied to Constant powers, but that's not the effect that was wanted. You need to compare the cost of a regular 3 charge HKA with that of Time Limit applied to an Instant power version. At that point the higher point cost of the latter becomes obvious.

I looked for that and must have missed it. Right under the subheading, too. So all we have to do is rule that, if the power is not at least Constant, then a Continuing Charge simply allows it to be used throughout the period of the continuing charge, with the usual action and attack roll requirements. That means:

 

3 Continuing charges of 1 minute each would be -1/2, so a cost of 20, or 15 if you want it to cost END on each usage.

 

I'm a little unsure about what you mean about "For 7 points, you could have a 2d6 HKA available all the time." Is that taking 1 charge per day and a Time Limit of One day or something? Because I get Time Limit One Day (+2) and Once a Day (-2) balancing out on that. Costs END makes the final cost 26 points for a direct comparison to the 2D6 HKA, but if it gets Dispelled you totally lose it until tomorrow, which seems fair for saving 4 points over a regular version.

For 23 points, under your math, I get a 2d6 HKA I can use for three one minute periods a day. For 30 points, I get an HKA I can use whenever I want. 30 - 23 = 7 points.

[Hugh Neilson]

So how does that compare? A 2d6 HKA I can use for 3 one minute increments, spending END for each use, costs 23 points under your model, 2 points less than having 32 charges that cost END, or 3 points more than 16 charges that cost END.

 

Under my model, we get a cost of 15 points, which equates to a 2d6 KA with 8 charges that cost END.

 

Which one seems more comparable to 3 1 minute increments a day? That seems like three combats where the HKA can be used without limit. Will he use it 8 times in an average combat to hit the 24 or so charges that it's priced equivalent to? 8 charges is quite a bit less, but those 8 charges let me make a single, isolated attack (say, to take down a guard I snuck up on, or break an object) without losing 1 or 2 more charges as my minute ticks away with no further combat.

 

I lean to the "equivalent to 8 charges" model, but the comparison will allow a GM to make their own assessment of how limiting this limitation is.

[mrinku]

I looked for that and must have missed it. Right under the subheading, too. So all we have to do is rule that, if the power is not at least Constant, then a Continuing Charge simply allows it to be used throughout the period of the continuing charge, with the usual action and attack roll requirements. That means:

...

 

 

For 23 points, under your math, I get a 2d6 HKA I can use for three one minute periods a day. For 30 points, I get an HKA I can use whenever I want. 30 - 23 = 7 points.

 

No, you're simply NOT ALLOWED to use continuing charges with an Instant power. You have to change the power to Continuous (+1/2) first. But Time Limit is allowed to be used with Instant powers, quite specifically.

 

Ah, I see what you mean by "7 points" now. Yes. That is indeed how it works out.

 

Conversely, that set of modfiers (+3/4, -1 3/4) would allow a 3D6 HKA instead for 29 points. It's all very well to dismiss the difference as a mere 7 points, but that was still a sizable fraction of the total cost (i.e. one quarter prior to rounding).

 

As far as comparing Time Limit to a specified number of charges... which is better for a given characters actually depends on how many times they will be attacking. Obviously Speed matters a great deal, but so does the Multiple Attack maneuver and the Autofire advantage.  

 

A +3/4 advantage (Time Limit 1 minute on an Instant power) is equivalent to 125 charges, which is 25 charges per turn over that timeframe. For most practical purposes (except very fast SPD characters with Autofire) that is indeed the same thing as unlimited use - even SPD 12 only gets 60 phases a minute.

[Hugh Neilson]

No, you're simply NOT ALLOWED to use continuing charges with an Instant power. You have to change the power to Continuous (+1/2) first.

Call it “Limited Power” – Usable for only three one minute increments per day. The pricing should be the same.

 

But Time Limit is allowed to be used with Instant powers, quite specifically.

Actually, it’s also explicitly noted as intended for powers that are exceptionally difficult to activate, and directed at fantasy character spells, so if we are sticking to Time Limit’s intended use, this is not it.

 

It's all very well to dismiss the difference as a mere 7 points, but that was still a sizable fraction of the total cost (i.e. one quarter prior to rounding).

Roughly the same as any -1/4 minor limitation. I think three minutes a day is considerably more limiting than a 15- activation roll or Gestures.

 

As far as comparing Time Limit to a specified number of charges... which is better for a given characters actually depends on how many times they will be attacking. Obviously Speed matters a great deal, but so does the Multiple Attack maneuver and the Autofire advantage.

 

A +3/4 advantage (Time Limit 1 minute on an Instant power) is equivalent to 125 charges, which is 25 charges per turn over that timeframe. For most practical purposes (except very fast SPD characters with Autofire) that is indeed the same thing as unlimited use - even SPD 12 only gets 60 phases a minute.

It’s not 25 charges per turn unless you need to use it every phase for the full minute. It’s not 125 charges you can use over the course of the day at your discretion. It’s also not free o END cost, which is why 125 charges is an advantage to begin with. For +1/2, you could have 0 END and use it as much as you want, so why spend +1/4 more to get less benefits? It is of benefit only if the power is Autofire.

[mrinku]

Actually, it’s also explicitly noted as intended for powers that are exceptionally difficult to activate, and directed at fantasy character spells, so if we are sticking to Time Limit’s intended use, this is not it.

 

I have to differ there. "works best with some type of preparation to use" hardly means "exceptionally difficult to activate", "is directed at fantasy spells"  or even "can only be used if there is preparation time involved". Of course, I'm just working from Champions Complete. Maybe it's worded differently in the main 6e rulebook.

 

As far as fantasy spells go, wasn't the original post about a sword you summon? Of course there is no rules distinction in HERO between a spell that lasts a certain time before running out and a gadget that gives the same effect.

 

There is clearly no point in taking Time Limit as an advantage for a power that has no strings attached to use... but a limit of three times a day is pretty solid as far as that goes. The point is that this is more expensive than if you were only allowed to use it three times. And as it IS still cheaper than the unmodified power by a significant margin, there is a point to it. 

 

You could also use limiters such as "must sleep for eight hours between uses", "charge the battery for 15 minutes", "needs a quarter to play on" or "Requires a Skill Roll" to feed Time Limit.

 

Limited Power is fine as a way to handle this. But I tend to use that as a last resort if I can't build using other tools, and these exist in this case.

 

Regarding the charges, I apologise if I confused things. I was just looking at how many charges a +3/4 advantage was worth, really. One way of doing time limited Instant powers is simply to buy enough charges and be done with it. But that's not the effect the OP wanted.

[Hugh Neilson]

I have to differ there. "works best with some type of preparation to use" hardly means "exceptionally difficult to activate", "is directed at fantasy spells"  or even "can only be used if there is preparation time involved". Of course, I'm just working from Champions Complete. Maybe it's worded differently in the main 6e rulebook.

6e is quite explicit that this was the intent of Time Limit. A decent case for leaving it out of CC.

 

The point is that this is more expensive than if you were only allowed to use it three times. And as it IS still cheaper than the unmodified power by a significant margin, there is a point to it.

Either approach costs between 3 uses per day costing END and unlimited uses costing END. Is it better to have, say, three minutes or 8 uses? 4 uses? 16 uses?

 

Limited Power is fine as a way to handle this. But I tend to use that as a last resort if I can't build using other tools, and these exist in this case.

One of those other tools is Continuing Charges. Using existing mechanics as a comparison to Limited Power is also my preference. Comparative builds also provides a cost "sanity check".

 

Regarding the charges, I apologise if I confused things. I was just looking at how many charges a +3/4 advantage was worth, really.

Using Charges as a benchmark requires consideration that Charges come bundled with 0 END. I argued for removing that when 6e was in drafting, and I still think Charges should have been re-priced to larger limitations, without getting 0 END for free.