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Extra DCs for Martial Arts in 6e

Martial Arts 6th Edition

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#1 PhilFleischmann

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 10:24 AM

I don't have 6e (yet).  Did I correctly read somewhere in these forums that extra DCs for Martial Arts cost 4 points each?  Is that the correct price?

 

And if so, why?  What does HtH Attack cost in 6e?  Maybe I've misunderstood.

 

+1d6 with STR costs 5 points, costs END to use, and adds to Lifting capacity.

+1d6 HA costs ?, costs END to use, does not add to lifting capacity, and can only be used for normal damage strikes.

+1 DC with Martial Arts costs ??, does not cost END to use, does not add to lifting capacity, and can be used with any Martial maneuver, including those that don't do damage, like grabs, disarms, shoves, escapes, etc.  And if you have Martial maneuvers, you're never going to be using the corresponding standard maneuvers.

 

As I understand it, the only differences between STR and MA DC are:

1. STR costs END, and DCs don't

2. STR adds to lifting/throwing, and DCs don't

3. DCs are used only with the (better) MA maneuvers

 

Anything else?  It seems to me that #3 doesn't really matter to the cost, since you're going to be using the better maneuvers if you have them anyway.  #1 should make DCs cost more (0 END is a +1/2 advantage).  And #2 is at most a -1/4 limitation on DCs.  Thus, MA DCs should cost about 6 each, by my calculations.

 

So what's the deal?  What are these costs in 6e?  Are they what they should be?

 

I suspect that (if there's a problem here) this topic would have come up before.  I searched for it, but didn't find one.


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#2 steriaca

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 11:50 AM

Hand-To-Hand Attack cost 5 points for each 1d6, but MUST buy a -1/2 mandatory limitation "Hand-To-Hand Attack".

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#3 DasBroot

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 12:30 PM

Don't damage classes add to the active cost of the power they're modifying and change the endurance cost?  Or is that a fever dream / houserule I pulled out of the ether?

 

In any case if allowed in the game the hth DC are arguably 'better' than hand attack for a lot of situations (especially if you spend a lot of points on martial maneuvers - but if you do then you're comparing apples to oranges).

 

However, unlike HtH DC you can advantage and limit Hand Attack (and these advantages get pro-rated into your strength damage).  Penetrating and armor piercing, for example, offer advantages in attacking that martial maneuvers  (at least the core ones) can't match.


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#4 Hyper-Man

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 12:44 PM

I don't have 6e (yet).  Did I correctly read somewhere in these forums that extra DCs for Martial Arts cost 4 points each?  Is that the correct price?

 

And if so, why?  What does HtH Attack cost in 6e?  Maybe I've misunderstood.

 

+1d6 with STR costs 5 points, costs END to use, and adds to Lifting capacity.

+1d6 HA costs ?, costs END to use, does not add to lifting capacity, and can only be used for normal damage strikes.

+1 DC with Martial Arts costs ??, does not cost END to use, does not add to lifting capacity, and can be used with any Martial maneuver, including those that don't do damage, like grabs, disarms, shoves, escapes, etc.  And if you have Martial maneuvers, you're never going to be using the corresponding standard maneuvers.

 

As I understand it, the only differences between STR and MA DC are:

1. STR costs END, and DCs don't

2. STR adds to lifting/throwing, and DCs don't

3. DCs are used only with the (better) MA maneuvers

 

Anything else?  It seems to me that #3 doesn't really matter to the cost, since you're going to be using the better maneuvers if you have them anyway.  #1 should make DCs cost more (0 END is a +1/2 advantage).  And #2 is at most a -1/4 limitation on DCs.  Thus, MA DCs should cost about 6 each, by my calculations.

 

So what's the deal?  What are these costs in 6e?  Are they what they should be?

 

I suspect that (if there's a problem here) this topic would have come up before.  I searched for it, but didn't find one.

 

The costs of HA's and Martial Damage Classes did not change from 5e/5er to 6e/CC.

edit - The mandatory HA Limitation changed from -1/2 to -1/4

 

The only functional changes made were how HA's with Advantages stack damage. The current rules are more in line with how 5e/5er handled HKA's with Advantages.

 

:)

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#5 Grailknight

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 03:36 PM

You are correct, Martial Arts DC's are the best purchase in the game now that Figured Characteristic are gone. IMO, the reason this isn't a problem is because Martial Arts can be used equally by all types of characters(though the mentalists need the optional rules).  


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#6 Derek Hiemforth

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 07:34 PM

You are correct, Martial Arts DC's are the best purchase in the game now that Figured Characteristic are gone. IMO, the reason this isn't a problem is because Martial Arts can be used equally by all types of characters(though the mentalists need the optional rules).  

 

Or not used equally by all.  Extra DC really reach their full "best purchase in the game" status when combined with the martial arts design rules from Hero System Martial Arts, which are optional.  If the GM doesn't allow those rules, it nerfs Extra DC considerably. They're definitely still worthwhile, but not at the "Holy cow!" level they can reach if you're able to custom-build just exactly the maneuvers you want to use them with.   :winkgrin:


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#7 PhilFleischmann

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 10:55 PM

You are correct, Martial Arts DC's are the best purchase in the game now that Figured Characteristic are gone. IMO, the reason this isn't a problem is because Martial Arts can be used equally by all types of characters(though the mentalists need the optional rules).  

"can be used equally by all types of characters" doesn't really mean anything.  You might as well say, "it isn't a problem because now all characters will be martial artists," or "those that don't use martial arts will be at a disadvantage."  If my character doesn't buy Martial Arts because it's not part of his concept, it doesn't help that he "could have" bought martial arts.

 

I can understand that in 5e, when every 5 points of STR gave 5.5 points of figureds, that a MA DC had to cost less than 5.  But that isn't the case anymore.

 

Is there any further clarification in 6e what the -1/2 "Hand-to-Hand Attack" limitation actually does?  That is to say - How is it limiting?  Because as we all know, a limitation that doesn't limit...

 

It looks like HA is essentially just STR with "Only for normal HtH damage - no lifting or 'exerting' combat maneuvers like Grab".  So perhaps the -1/2 is appropriate.

 

But that makes a MA DC equivalent to STR with "Only for HtH combat maneuvers including all 'exert' maneuvers, and all types of damage (but 1/2 for Killing damage)" and 0 END.  I keep checking and re-checking my math, and I'm getting 6 points for that.

 

And no, it's not any more of a problem for a MA DC to cost 6 than it is for a d6 of HA to cost 3 1/3.

 

HA is 5 points per DC with a mandatory -1/2 limitation.  (Which comes to 3 1/3 points per DC, assuming no other modifiers.)

MA DCs are 5 points per DC with 0 END* and a mandatory -1/4 limitation (because they're less limited than HA).  (Which comes to 6 points per DC, assuming no other modifiers.)

The whole "5 points per DC" rule is still satisfied.

 

* And the 0 END should probably also be considered mandatory, just because that's the way martial arts work, thematically.  The extra damage is due to greater skill, not greater bodily effort.

 

I'll probably just have to house rule this for my games.


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#8 Beast

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 11:02 PM

Str and HtH attack can also be haymakered
MA maneuvers cannot


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#9 Grailknight

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 02:58 AM

Martial Arts may not be part of the starting concept but can be easily worked into any character experience. It's no harder to say a character got more skillful with using his power than it is to say he became more powerful and both methods result in the same thing, a more effective character developed in concept.

 

I do agree that repricing them to 6 points per DC is more inline with their true value.(and they're still better than two 3 point skill levels)



#10 Hyper-Man

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 07:50 AM

I disagree with the need to increase the value of Martial Damage Classes.  Their value is directly proportional to the number of Martial Maneuvers a character has.  There is a diminishing return on the investment the more of those a character purchases beyond a certain point. 

 

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#11 Ninja-Bear

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 07:54 AM

Extra DC should not cost 6 pets. At that cost, you could just buy +5 STR with limitations and save points.
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#12 Lucius

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 08:15 AM

Extra DC should not cost 6 pets. At that cost, you could just buy +5 STR with limitations and save points.


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#13 Grailknight

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 08:45 AM

I disagree with the need to increase the value of Martial Damage Classes.  Their value is directly proportional to the number of Martial Maneuvers a character has.  There is a diminishing return on the investment the more of those a character purchases beyond a certain point. 

 

HM

 

Extra DC should not cost 6 pets. At that cost, you could just buy +5 STR with limitations and save points.

 

Martial Arts is the one area where STR builds suffer.  Consider  two Characters: A has 35 STR, B has 15 STR and +4 DC's

 

For any strike or exert maneuver they have equal values values in damage but if you add the NND or Flash maneuvers then B gets his +4 DC while A gets nothing from his extra 20 STR. A also cost 4 points more and spends 2 more END per phase. That free 0 END really starts to show up in Supers games.

 

In 5th/5er and before, Figured Characteristics gave the advantage to STR but that no longer holds true in 6e.


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#14 Hyper-Man

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 08:51 AM

STR still has the advantage.  If the character is grabbed the Martial DC's only come into play IF the character has Martial Escape.  If the character wants to apply the Martial DC's he has to have the appropriate Martial Maneuver.  STR is universal.  END cost is both a negative and a positive as it means STR can be Pushed.

 

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#15 Ninja-Bear

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 09:39 AM

+10 only adds 1 END I'm not the most effiecent of builders but if you can't handle an additional one point then your build has some issues.
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#16 Ninja-Bear

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 09:39 AM

+10 only adds 1 END I'm not the most effiecent of builders but if you can't handle an additional one point then your build has some issues.
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#17 Lucius

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 09:46 AM

STR still has the advantage.  If the character is grabbed the Martial DC's only come into play IF the character has Martial Escape.  If the character wants to apply the Martial DC's he has to have the appropriate Martial Maneuver.  STR is universal.  END cost is both a negative and a positive as it means STR can be Pushed.
 
HM

 
How often is Pushing going to matter? It's for exceptional situations. 

+10 only adds 1 END I'm not the most effiecent of builders but if you can't handle an additional one point then your build has some issues.


So you're saying that the Reduced END Cost Advantage is overpriced?
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#18 Cantriped

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 10:06 AM

The mandatory limitation on Hand-To-Hand Attack is only -1/4 (so HtHA is worth 5 APs per die, but only 4 CP). In regard to "how it is limiting", you can basically think of HtHA as "+5 STR, Only To Increase Normal Damage (-1/4)". The design conceit being that HtHA isn't worth as much as Blast (even if you consider Ranged and Adds STR To Damage to be of equal value) because Strength does everything HtHA does and much, much more, but there were some severe balance problems that cropped up in the days when HtHA was only 4 APs per die.

 

Martial Art DCs are extremely useful/powerful, but they get discounted compared to Strength because of their high cost of entry. You can't just buy +5 DCs and apply them to every attack you perform, you also have to purchase (and justify to your GM) a Martial version of every maneuver you wish to apply the added DCs too (so a minimum of a 10 CP cost of entry, higher if you want to use said DCs efficiently). It is also noteworthy that Martial Arts were priced with the expectation that in a Champions campaign the "Martial Artist" and the "Brick" should be able to dish out comparable damage, despite the former having a STR 30 or 40 points lower than the latter. If you just wanted a high damage output Strikes, you're probably better off just buying HtHA for 4 CP/die (or 6 CP/die for Zero END HtHA). However if you also want to make Grabs, Disarms, etc, than you are better off paying to cost of entry for Martial Arts & Added DCs.



#19 Ninja-Bear

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 10:37 AM

No Lucius I don't think reduced END is over priced. In fact for the price, it really can make extra STR really attractive!
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#20 Hugh Neilson

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 10:51 AM

STR is universal.  END cost is both a negative and a positive as it means STR can be Pushed.


The STR used in your Martial Arts can also be Pushed - no help with NND maneuvers, but otherwise no different.

I think some of this is that we look at an MA DC and, gut feel, it is not worth as much as +5 STR. Maybe we should allow 4 points for "+1 DC with all non-Martial maneuvers".

But I can buy Offensive Strike and add 4 END Free DCs for a lot less than the cost of +20 STR.

I could buy +8 Skill levels with HTH combat and have a pretty nice "martial arts" suite. I could not perfectly duplicate every maneuver (in part as I take no penalties - maybe I should sell back 3 OCV and 3 DCV and use those 30 points for another 3 HTH Skill Levels (wow - skill levels aren't overpriced, are they?) and reduced END on my STR), but I'd have a lot more choices.





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