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Extra DCs for Martial Arts in 6e


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That's the way our group has always played Pushing - a very rare event, under the most dire of circumstances. The STR can be pushed (as often or rarely) for a martial or non-martial maneuver, though.

 

Hype, I'm not sure what I'm advocating either :)

 

Combat skill levels have always seemed best purchased at no more than the 5 point level, to me. Beyond that, they just feel overpriced. That makes the best thing to compare to DCs (+2 levels, only for damage classes) a tough one, but 2 levels with MA would cost 10 points - removing the ability to add OCV or DCV drops that to 4 points if we accept a -1 1/2 limitation, and we are losing two of the three main things they are used for, plus any ancillary benefits.

 

Gut feel, I have never found MA DCs to be priced inappropriately. Hand Attack at -1/4 has always felt overpriced to me (no benefit to anything but direct damage, but the same price as a MA DC? No thanks). Make it 0 END (+1/2) and Martial Maneuvers Only (-1/2) and we get 4.29 points per d6 - more expensive than an MA DC, and does less. That hardly seems fair. Even -1/2 limit for HA would mean it's 3.75 per 0 END DC limited to Martial, which is still pretty pricy.

 

My gut feel says pull HA out of limitations and Blasts entirely and make it 3 points for +1d6 direct HTH damage with either martial or non-martial maneuvers (pick one - no one will pick both) and 4 points for +1 DC with all of one or the other. Or call it Limited STR with a -1/4 limitation and a -1/2 limitation, but that doesn't explain the boost to martial maneuvers not enhanced by STR.

 

ASIDE: Skill levels? Just buy the stat up! I've believed INT and PRE should be priced up, rather than noncombat skill levels priced down, for some time.

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If the HA lim is only -1/4, that makes it even worse!  The "limitedness" of MA DCs is significantly less than the limitedness of HAs, but we don't have a limitation value smaller than -1/4.

 

(I have advocated in the past for greater granularity in Limitations and Advantages.  I suggested using values that are multiples of 1/20 - "nickels", instead of 1/4 - "quarters".  With nickels, you can still make -1/4 if you need to, and you can also have modifier values of -1/10, +1/5, -2/5, +3/10, etc.  So two small limitations that are both currently -1/4, but one is clearly slightly better than the other, you'd be able to give them different values that more accurately reflect how limiting they are.  But I digress.)

 

The "entry cost" is certainly a mitigating factor for the MA DCs, and might be enough to ignore the problem.  You have to spend at least 10 points on maneuvers before you are even eligible to pay 4 for an extra DC.  But with those 10 points, you can already have a maneuver that adds 4 DC to your regular STR damage.

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Or not used equally by all.  Extra DC really reach their full "best purchase in the game" status when combined with the martial arts design rules from Hero System Martial Arts, which are optional.  If the GM doesn't allow those rules, it nerfs Extra DC considerably. They're definitely still worthwhile, but not at the "Holy cow!" level they can reach if you're able to custom-build just exactly the maneuvers you want to use them with.   :winkgrin:

What is the major difference between MA DCs and combat skill levels.  Martial Arts in the end are useful for one type of attack, punching people although their are options for NND, KA or Mental Powers if GM allows but lets take good ol' fashioned pound and ground.

 

Each DC for MA cost four points and can increase dmg 1 DC (1 d6) or give a +1 OCV

 

Two skill levels for a single maneuver cost four points and for limited group of attacks six points.  They yield +2 OCV or hit or +1 DC (1d6)

 

So in comparison it is Martial Arts Advantage damage and Skill level advantage to hit.  Which is better can be argued as subjective.

 

Now one can buy lots of maneuvers with differing effects but you are sinking a lot of points into what is in the end punching someone.  Plus lots of MA maneuvers involve Blocks, Dodges, Escapes etc. that don't cause dmg which means the actual list of maneuvers in average MA purchase is in line with 3 point combat skill level anyways.

 

HTH attack str dmg increase it now equals MA DC in cost.

 

Think about it in this way and it is more balanced than you might think.

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What is the major difference between MA DCs and combat skill levels.  Martial Arts in the end are useful for one type of attack, punching people although their are options for NND, KA or Mental Powers if GM allows but lets take good ol' fashioned pound and ground.

 

Each DC for MA cost four points and can increase dmg 1 DC (1 d6) or give a +1 OCV

 

Two skill levels for a single maneuver cost four points and for limited group of attacks six points.  They yield +2 OCV or hit or +1 DC (1d6)

 

So in comparison it is Martial Arts Advantage damage and Skill level advantage to hit.  Which is better can be argued as subjective.

 

Now one can buy lots of maneuvers with differing effects but you are sinking a lot of points into what is in the end punching someone.  Plus lots of MA maneuvers involve Blocks, Dodges, Escapes etc. that don't cause dmg which means the actual list of maneuvers in average MA purchase is in line with 3 point combat skill level anyways.

 

HTH attack str dmg increase it now equals MA DC in cost.

 

Think about it in this way and it is more balanced than you might think.

There are flaws in your logic here...

First of all. Martial Arts are useful for far more than just one type of attack. You can apply a martial maneuver to any attack power of the appropriately declared special effect, not just punches and kicks. They also allow you to do things you cannot usually do with the powers that they apply to. For example, you can use a sword (an HKA) to block, disarm, grab, or trip someone with the appropriate martial maneuver.

Secondly. You cannot apply 2-point CSLs to Damage, so the minimum cost to increase damage using Skill Levels is 6 points (using two 3-point CSLs) versus 4 points if you are using Martial Arts DCs or 5 or more points if you are simply buying more of the base power. Those CSLs can also be used for OCV or DCV, but they can only be applied to at most 3 different powers, or three different maneuvers. Likewise, simply buying more of the power is sometimes more expensive, but they can be made much, much cheaper in bulk using Power Frameworks; unlike Skills (including Martial Arts) which are Special Powers (and therefore cannot be placed into frameworks).

 

In terms of the opportunity costs for buying HtHA versus MA DCs: Their real cost is normally the same. The former can be made cheaper by being bought in a Framework with other Attack Powers, but only certain maneuvers can benefit from the damage they produce (HtHA doesn't apply to Martial Escape or Martial Grab for example). The latter cannot generally be discounted further, but they also apply to far more of your Martial Maneuvers (with obvious exceptions like Martial Dodge) that you would otherwise be forced to pay slightly more for per DC to improve by buying more Strength (which generally isn't appropriate to some character types).

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"First of all. Martial Arts are useful for far more than just one type of attack. You can apply a martial maneuver to any attack power of the appropriately declared special effect, not just punches and kicks."

 

If your GM allows it however to truly broaden that usefulness to differing attacks you have to buy several MA maneuvers and a GM might very well make you buy them as more than one style.  Thus your hand to hand is one style, claw an bite another, energy blast fu another.

 

Most of the MA styles have limited actual attacks available and the cost of the manuevre adds up which is why the 3 point level could be applied to a single Martial Arts style ad most characters have five manuevres with two defensive anyways.  Plus CL can be bought for energy blasts or KA as well.

 

Even so the points value even out.  You could buy 4 MA dc to get an extra +4d6 dmg at 16 points, I have to buy eight 3 point levels for 24 points.  However minimum you are going to pay 10 points extra for maneuvers and up to 30 to 40 points to gain the advantage of having it apply to five or more attacks.  You might get an extra +2 OCV to add to the +4 for a +6 OCV increase but I still am better at +8 and I did not have to pay a 10 to 30 point premium.  Again the argument is subjective.  A cheap effective attack vs the eclectic diversity of the martial arts style.  I still stand by my opinion that they are balanced.

 

 

"You cannot apply 2-point CSLs to Damage, so the minimum cost to increase damage using Skill Levels is 6 points (using two 3-point CSLs)"

 

Fair enough, my mistake

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What is the major difference between MA DCs and combat skill levels.  Martial Arts in the end are useful for one type of attack, punching people although their are options for NND, KA or Mental Powers if GM allows but lets take good ol' fashioned pound and ground.

 

Each DC for MA cost four points and can increase dmg 1 DC (1 d6) or give a +1 OCV

 

Two skill levels for a single maneuver cost four points and for limited group of attacks six points.  They yield +2 OCV or hit or +1 DC (1d6)

 

As Cantriped noted, 2-pt. levels don't add to damage.  Also, I think you're missing most of the potential of Extra DC by focusing your attention on normal damage.  For example, consider, say, 10 Extra DC (40 CP) when used with a "Pressure Point Lock" custom maneuver:

 

+1 OCV: +1 CP

Grab Two Limbs: +3 CP

1d6 NND Damage:  +2 CP

+5 STR to hold on:  +1 CP

No STR to damage: -2 CP

Total Cost:  5 CP

 

For 45 total CP, some of which will also be useful with other maneuvers, you get a Grab with an OCV bonus, that holds them with +55 STR.  Assuming a MA with a STR of 20, that means they basically have to be a Brick to get out on their own (or have some other special means of escape).  And as long as they can't escape, you're dropping 6d6 NND damage on them every Phase.

 

Doesn't suck.  :)

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That example is great but shows a character with a potential 16d6 Offensive Strike which is usually above most starting 'caps'.

 

Granted.  But it speaks again to the cost effectiveness of Extra DC, just in a different way.  For 50 CP, you can get both the 6d6 NND, 75 STR Grab from hell, and a 16d6 Offensive Strike.

 

Or rather, you can have them if your GM is asleep at the wheel.  But strictly from a game mechanics perspective, that can certainly lead to some head-scratching when you compare the cost to other attacks.

 

Having said all this, I wouldn't advocate for changing the cost of Extra DC. Changing the cost just raises the specter of issues already addressed in the thread.  It's just something to be aware of.

 

After all, something has to be "the best purchase in the game."  If it wasn't Extra DC, it would just be something else, the way it used to be DEX and STR.   :winkgrin:

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If your GM allows it however to truly broaden that usefulness to differing attacks you have to buy several MA maneuvers and a GM might very well make you buy them as more than one style.  Thus your hand to hand is one style, claw an bite another, energy blast fu another.

 

Most of the MA styles have limited actual attacks available and the cost of the manuevre adds up which is why the 3 point level could be applied to a single Martial Arts style ad most characters have five manuevres with two defensive anyways.  Plus CL can be bought for energy blasts or KA as well.

GM Fiat isn't a sound basis for a RAW Balance argument. While it is true that the GM might​ prevent you from purchasing a single 'general purpose' martial art, the RAW supports the idea that you can simply buy additional Weapon Elements (at the cost of 1 CP each) to apply your Martial Art style to multiple things. Further, even if your GM does force you to buy multiple styles, in CC/FHC an Extra DC applies to all​ of your martial maneuvers, not just those of a given style. (see CC 155 or FHC 182)*.

*I believe that Hero System Martial Arts​ makes the distinction that Extra DCs for melee and ranged martial maneuvers are separate, but FHC makes no such distinction so I would consider that an optional rule... Also I could be wrong because I'm too lazy this morning to dredge through HSMA looking for the citation.

 

There is also the fun fact that CC/FHC don't require you to spend all 10 points on the same style. For example, my Bell Cranel* example character (shameless plug) bought a 13-pt Knife Fighting Style, and a 7-pt Hand-to-Hand Combat Style (so that he could still Martial Dodge and Legsweep without his knife in hand). He also has 2 3-point CSLs with Blades instead of Martial DCs because I felt being able to improve his CV was worth the extra few points to him, even if it meant he couldn't apply them to his Legsweep (which was intended to be a control maneuver rather than a source of raw damage for him).

*He was intended to be entirely FHC compatible, so he only purchased game elements from FHC and followed the RAW to the letter. 

 

I still stand by my opinion that they are balanced.

I actually agree that these options are balanced. I was only arguing the flaws in your logic, not the conclusion they led you too.

 

 

After all, something has to be "the best purchase in the game."  If it wasn't Extra DC, it would just be something else, the way it used to be DEX and STR.   :winkgrin:

I agree! You get enough nerds on a forum and they will​ find the most cost effective/powerful options in the game.

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What is the major difference between MA DCs and combat skill levels.  Martial Arts in the end are useful for one type of attack, punching people although their are options for NND, KA or Mental Powers if GM allows but lets take good ol' fashioned pound and ground.

As has been pointed out, that's not anywhere close to true. Even besides types of damage, there's grab, disarm, grab weapon, escape, shove, ...

 

Each DC for MA cost four points and can increase dmg 1 DC (1 d6) or give a +1 OCV

Eh? This (bold added) is the first I've heard of this. This would be a major 6e change, and makes the argument even stronger that DCs should cost more.  Pre-6e, an extra DC was an extra DC.  Now you're saying it can be used for OCV instead if you want?

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As Cantriped noted, 2-pt. levels don't add to damage.  Also, I think you're missing most of the potential of Extra DC by focusing your attention on normal damage.  For example, consider, say, 10 Extra DC (40 CP) when used with a "Pressure Point Lock" custom maneuver:

 

+1 OCV: +1 CP

Grab Two Limbs: +3 CP

1d6 NND Damage:  +2 CP

+5 STR to hold on:  +1 CP

No STR to damage: -2 CP

Total Cost:  5 CP

 

For 45 total CP, some of which will also be useful with other maneuvers, you get a Grab with an OCV bonus, that holds them with +55 STR.  Assuming a MA with a STR of 20, that means they basically have to be a Brick to get out on their own (or have some other special means of escape).  And as long as they can't escape, you're dropping 6d6 NND damage on them every Phase.

 

Doesn't suck.   :)

This might be another change in 6e, but in 5e and before, the extra DCs could only apply to one basis of the maneuver - decided when you buy the maneuver.  You can't add the DC to both the damage and the grabbing strength.

 

It still makes the point pretty well though.  +1 OCV and either 6d6 NND, or 55 STR for holding and 1d6 NND - all for 45 points.

 

Also, in 5e, you aren't allowed to take both STR+ and STR- on the same maneuver.  And STR- applies to all uses of STR, not just damaging ones.  So this maneuver doesn't give you 55 + STR for holding on, it's just a flat 55.  Maybe this has changed in 6e (I hope not), or maybe you've misapplied the rules here.

 

Since a 5 STR grab is not likely to be useful at all (most opponents will be able to break out with casual STR), don't bother adding that to the maneuver.  How 'bout this instead:

 

+2 OCV: +2 CP

+2 DCV: +2 CP

1d6 NND: +2 CP

Throw (opponent falls): +1 CP

No STR used: -2 CP

Total cost: 5 CP

 

Plus 10 extra DCs (40 points) which can be applied to all other maneuvers as well (other than Blocks and Dodges).  So a 6d6 NND that puts the opponent on the ground even if he remains conscious, with +2 OCV and +2 DCV - and it costs 0 END to use!  All for 45 points.

 

Outside of martial arts, a 6d6 NND, 0 END, No Range, would cost (30 x 2.5)/1.5 = 50 points, and that doesn't include the OCV and DCV bonuses, nor does it knock the opponent to the floor.

 

Granted, I'm using the 5e construction rules, and assuming they haven't changed.  If there's a change that makes my build invalid, let me know.

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After all, something has to be "the best purchase in the game."  If it wasn't Extra DC, it would just be something else, the way it used to be DEX and STR.   :winkgrin:

Not if the game is balanced.  That's the whole point of HERO.  Nothing is supposed to be best.  Granted, it might never be perfect, but that doesn't mean we have to put up with an obvious imbalance.

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From 6e2 page 92:

+1 DAMAGE CLASS
Characters may improve their Martial Maneuvers by buying Extra Damage Classes. Each Extra DC adds one Damage Class to any Maneuver (such as Martial Strike, Killing Strike, or Martial Throw), or +5 STR to any Maneuver that grants extra STR for limited purposes (such as Martial Grab).
An Extra Damage Class adds to all of a character’s Martial Maneuvers — he doesn’t have to purchase Extra DCs maneuver by maneuver. Characters cannot purchase half an Extra DC, nor apply Limitations to Extra DCs. A character can choose not to use his Extra DCs if he wants to do less damage than normal.

 

From CC page 155:

EXTRA DAMAGE CLASS
Each Extra Damage Class adds one DC to any Martial Maneuver, or +5 STR to any Martial Maneuver that grants extra STR for limited purposes. An Extra Damage Class adds to all of a character’s Martial Maneuvers.

 

HM

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Just noticed that this has been brought before:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/72961-martial-arts-and-str/

 

It just hadn't held this level of detail as this current thread has.

Thanks!  For some reason, the archived threads don't seem to show up in searches.  (What's the point of an archive if you can't search it?)  I've tried searching for some of my old posts from years ago, which I can't find now, even though I know they must be here somewhere.

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From 6e2 page 92:

 

From CC page 155:

 

HM

 

Exactly. And it's been that way since 4e, as the example on p 31 makes clear:

Example: Flying Lotus has a 20 STR and has bought a Martial Strike, a Martial Escape, and a Martial Dodge, for 12 Character Points. He also bought +3 DCs, for 12 Character Points. His Martial Strike now does STR + 2d6 + 3d6, for a total of 9d6. His Martial Escape gives him a STR (to get out of Grabs) of STR + 15 + 15 = 50. His Martial Dodge is unaffected by the DCs.

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Thanks!  For some reason, the archived threads don't seem to show up in searches.  (What's the point of an archive if you can't search it?)  I've tried searching for some of my old posts from years ago, which I can't find now, even though I know they must be here somewhere.

 

You have to use the advanced search for more options.

 

HM

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This might be another change in 6e, but in 5e and before, the extra DCs could only apply to one basis of the maneuver

 

Ah, you're right.  Sorry about that; it was in HSMA, and I missed it (I was just looking in CC/6E2).

 

You're also right about STR+ and STR-.  I was thinking they'd be okay together, because they're applying to different maneuver bases, but HSMA doesn't say anything about an exception to the "no STR+ and STR- together" rule for such a case.

 

Okay, I back off my position.  Extra DC is not necessarily the "best buy in the game."  It's still a good buy, but not unreasonably so.  :)

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Not if the game is balanced.  That's the whole point of HERO.  Nothing is supposed to be best.  Granted, it might never be perfect, but that doesn't mean we have to put up with an obvious imbalance.

 

Who said anything about an "obvious" imbalance?  I'm just saying that, barring the exceptionally unlikely event of a completely flawless system, something in the system will be the "best" buy in the game, even if only slightly.  :)

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