How to do Captain Famous Hero Guy's Magic Metal Sheild

[indy523]

You know the drill it is Captain Flag Waiver and his round metal shrild made from specia; metal from outer space  who never loses the shield for long but how does one buy it.

 

Focus OIF:  Our flag waiver always seems to control the shield.  He throws it and if it does not boomerang back it stays out of the enemies reach just long enough.  Even in the rare instances where his opponent wrenches the shield from his grasp comic book karma delivers it back to him so long as he keeps up he good fight.

 

To truly get that shield an enemy must defeat him so it is not accessible.

 

Deflection and Reflection powers:  The shield grants neither power.  It does grant say 5 three point skill levels usable to the blocking roll 15 points with OIF -1/2L for 10 real cost.  Other things can block in a pinch but that shield makes it easy,

 

Armor +10 PD/ED/POW hardened Impenetrable, Usable only when actively blocking.  This means the character must be aware of the attack and attempting to block it with the shield.  Obviously if his block succeeds the attack is deflected/blocked but if it fails the armor applies.  This is either -1/4L or -1/2L but not more.  I am leading to -1/2 because 1) he can't be surprised 2) he has to give up an attack action and the best argument the armor only counts once per phase Why?  Because in multiple blocks the blocker gets successive -2 to his OCV but once he misses he can block no more until his next action.

 

This is Armor 45 x 1.5 or 67.5 with a total -1L for 33 real points, 43 total for the defensive side.

 

Seems reasonable to me.  Where am I wrong.

[Lucius]

Seems reasonable to me.  Where am I wrong.

 

Perhaps in making it a Focus. Is it ever taken away at all?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Captain Palindromedary

[indy523]

Perhaps in making it a Focus. Is it ever taken away at all?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Captain Palindromedary

 

In the movies he did not have it briefly because it got battered away and had to fight without it and Bucky the winter soldier took it from him and used it against him before Cap got it back.  In the end I look at it is if you want caps shield you will have to knock him the f out and take it from him.

 

Oddly enough the same argument can be made regarding making a NRA members gun an OIF and not an OAF....

 

"If you want his gun you'll have to pry it from his cold dead hands"

 

Shout out to all the politically sensitive.  To quote Larry the Cable Guy "That's funny, I don't care who you are!"

[Christopher R Taylor]

Very rarely does Cap lose his shield, but it does on occasion happen.  Its been destroyed at least once as well.  But those could be a limited restrained and plot effect.

[Hyper-Man]

Here is an old thread with a 5e version of The Shield and The Claws.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/68154-captain-america-build-350-pts/?p=1743039

 

HM

[massey]

40.- 60 Pt Multipower, OIF unbreakable (-1/2)

4u - 12D6 Energy Blast "thrown shield"

3u - +4D6 Hand Attack, +4 DCV "holding shield"

2u - Missile Deflection +5 OCV "deflecting shield"

2u - 30/30 Force Field, uses full action (-1) "hide behind shield"

 

That's the 2 minute version.

[Steve]

There is an "Unobtainium" shield write-up in one of Hero's equipment books, but I can't remember which one right now.

[DasBroot]

There's one in Champions Complete.  It's pretty similar to Massey's from what I recall though it throws in a lot of 'lockout' limitations as well (you can't use anything else if the shield is over there now because you threw it, etc).

[Hyper-Man]

There is an "Unobtainium" shield write-up in one of Hero's equipment books, but I can't remember which one right now.

 

There is a Questionite Shield in the Hero System Equipment Guide on page 276. It's way overpriced in my opinion (300 Active Points!). My 5e version could be updated to 6e rules and still do nearly everything that the book version can.

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

There's one in Champions Complete.  It's pretty similar to Massey's from what I recall though it throws in a lot of 'lockout' limitations as well (you can't use anything else if the shield is over there now because you threw it, etc).

 

The one in CC is identical to the the one in HSEG.

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

I used a Force Wall slot in my version to represent the ability to resist Knockback when going for full defense. I would mix in Barrier and Damage Negation slots in a 6e update for the same reason.

 

HM

[Cantriped]

I hate that the Questionite Shield uses Blast instead of Hand-To-Hand Attack as the base power, but then again I also hate that Ranged HKAa are explicitly legal, but Ranged HAs are not... Although arguably Limited Range and Range Based On STR HAs are technically legal in CC thanks to no longer being defined as variations on Ranged as they are in 6e1.

[Hyper-Man]

edit - double post

[Hyper-Man]

Nope.  HA's cannot have any form of the Ranged Advantage.

 

And as far as the OP is concerned, citing CC is irrelevant as his use of 'Armor' indicates he's using 5e rules which are crystal clear on the subject.

 

HM

[Cantriped]

Nope.  HA's cannot have any form of the Ranged Advantage.

 

And as far as the OP is concerned, citing CC is irrelevant as his use of 'Armor' indicates he's using 5e rules which are crystal clear on the subject.

 

HM

If the original poster only wanted 5th edition advice, he needed to note in the thread title or original post. Me citing CC is no more irrelevant than you citing the Hero System Equipment Guide. ​Further, the legality of RBS HA is dependent upon which sourcebook you use as your primary rules reference. I use CC as my primary reference, so in the case of any conflict between the printed RAW of CC/FHC and 6e1&2, CC/FHC wins.

It is generally an accepted principle of game design that if two rulesets are considered members of the same edition (which CC & 6th edition commonly are, regardless of my opinions on the subject) than if you use both rulesets any changes made in the newer version overrule the older version (such as the elimination of classes of minds, and the implosion of categorized skills).

 

Per 6e1 you are correct, because Limited Range, Ranged Based On Strength, etc, are all explicitly defined as permutations on Ranged (just like Usable As Attack is a permutation on Usable By Other).

 

However in CC, Limited Range, Range Based On Strength, and Ranged are all separately defined modifiers (CC 109, 112, and 113) (unlike Usable As Attack, which is still a permutation on Usable By Other). While HKA explicitly allows either Ranged or Range Based On Strength (CC 73) without ever actually prohibiting Limited Range (which it also qualifies for), Hand-To-Hand Attack only explicitly prohibits the application of Ranged (CC 70), yet it otherwise qualifies for all three.

In both cases the refer to the specific modifiers in italics, not to general categories of modifiers. For example, Hand-To-Hand Attack doesn't say it cannot take "any range modifier" (a category which Limited Range, Ranged and Range Based On Strength would all be members) it says that it cannot take the "Ranged​ Advantage" specifically.

[dsatow]

I would generally put in a force wall no range with feedback.  There are times when the Captain would hide himself and others behind the shield and it would act like some type of barrier blocking everything.  It would also be sight impenetrable blocking flashes.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I don't see why HA with "ranged" is any worse than blast with "strength adds damage."  Except for how it highlights the broken and messed up nature of HA's build right now.

it should be the same as KAs.  You get either range or add strength.  None of this "you get a limitation" nonsense.

[Cantriped]

I don't see why HA with "ranged" is any worse than blast with "strength adds damage."  Except for how it highlights the broken and messed up nature of HA's build right now.

it should be the same as KAs.  You get either range or add strength.  None of this "you get a limitation" nonsense.

The HA/Blast distinction shouldn't really exist. It should have been changed in 6th edition to a single power named "Normal Attack" with Hand-To-Hand and Ranged permutations just like Killing Attack. HA doesn't really need a mandatory Limitation to justify its existence. Even though it would have the same APs value as Strength, it would still serve it's function as a carrier for Advantages (such as Area Of Effect, Armor Piercing and Ranged). I would also have been okay with STR (and Telekinesis) costing more to compensate.

 

I agree to the extent that I actually wrote an "Add Characteristic Modifier To Damage" modifier (it Applies To any Attack Power) for my Toolkit. As a +0 Advantage it lets you change HKAs and HAs from being based on STR to some other Characteristic (such as DEX or EGO). As a +1/2 Advantage it lets you add a Characteristic (such as STR, DEX, or EGO) to any Attack Power other than HA/HKA. Any characteristic used to increase Damage in this way costs END, and you can buy Reduced END for any such Characteristics as if they were STR.

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't see why HA with "ranged" is any worse than blast with "strength adds damage."  Except for how it highlights the broken and messed up nature of HA's build right now.

 

it should be the same as KAs.  You get either range or add strength.  None of this "you get a limitation" nonsense.

Maybe KAs should be the same as all other attacks - ranged by default, and you get more damage by buying the power higher, not by adding points in some other ability.

 

If you want a Drain PD that simulates your mighty punches bruising the target, making him easier to hurt with later attacks, you buy a Drain, No Range, not HTH Drain, so no range and STR boosts it. A Flash that's a Three Stooges Eyepoke? Same thing. Only KA has this "let STR boost it".

 

Hand Attack then becomes "extra STR, only for direct damage". That's probably -1/2, and for -1/4 you get to enhance non-direct damage combat maneuvers as well. This puts it on a more equal footing with Martial Arts DC's, which only enhance martial maneuvers, but can enhance effects STR would not normally enhance.

 

The advantage approach is another possibility, but to me violates the "You get what you pay for" principal.

 

Let's take three Clawed Crusader Characters:

 

CC1 has 10 STR

 

CC2 has 30 STR

 

CC3 has 45 STR

 

They all want to have a 4d6 HKA.

 

CC1 should buy 4d6 RKA, no Range for 40 points. 3d6+1 HKA costs 50.

 

CC2 can buy a 2d6 HKA for 30 points. Why does he get the same HKA for 10 to 20 points less? That makes his extra STR discounted by half, or free.

 

CC3 can buy a 1d6 HKA, unless we impose the "doubling rule" - then he must spend 30 points. Why does his last 15 STR not carry the same benefits as the first 30, when compared to CC2?

 

Why not instead allow each to purchase their KA and, if desired, limit some or all of it with a -1/4 limitation much like Unified Power that, if you Drain his STR, his KA is also Drained?

[Lucius]

The HA/Blast distinction shouldn't really exist. It should have been changed in 6th edition to a single power named "Normal Attack" with Hand-To-Hand and Ranged permutations just like Killing Attack. HA doesn't really need a mandatory Limitation to justify its existence. Even though it would have the same APs value as Strength, it would still serve it's function as a carrier for Advantages (such as Area Of Effect, Armor Piercing and Ranged). I would also have been okay with STR (and Telekinesis) costing more to compensate.

 

I agree to the extent that I actually wrote an "Add Characteristic Modifier To Damage" modifier (it Applies To any Attack Power) for my Toolkit. As a +0 Advantage it lets you change HKAs and HAs from being based on STR to some other Characteristic (such as DEX or EGO). As a +1/2 Advantage it lets you add a Characteristic (such as STR, DEX, or EGO) to any Attack Power other than HA/HKA. Any characteristic used to increase Damage in this way costs END, and you can buy Reduced END for any such Characteristics as if they were STR.

Great! I'll apply the Advantage three times for +1 1/2 to add PRE, EGO, and INT to my mental blast!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says why stop there, and throws in STR, DEX, CON, BOD, STUN, and END - then complains about having to recalculate the attack every time to account for lost STUN and END....

[Cantriped]

While as I've written it that might technically be legal... the intent was not to be able to apply more than one Characteristic to Damage (which is why HA/HKA cannot take the +1/2 level of the Modifier). I'll be doing to double checking on the RAW for modifiers in CC/FHC, and possible adding a clause to said modifier explicitly prohibiting such shenanigans. Thanks for the catch.

[Hugh Neilson]

Why not buy, say, 10 AP of every attack power and add the +1/2 advantage to enhance it with your highest stat? For 15 points, I should get at least 8 DCs of everything.

 

And why isn't Lucius' approach of multiple stats legal? If +1/2 is the appropriate advantage to add STR, or to add any other stat, why isn't +2 appropriate to add 4 stats? Each added stat will cost the same amount and add less DCs (presuming I am selecting the highest stats first). May as well spend an extra 5 points for each stat - are any below 10? Even a 5 point stat (Speed?) will add 1 DC, at the same cost as buying 1 DC.

 

Do all stats qualify? Can I boost all my attacks using END? It's OK that this will make my END cost END, as I'll be purchasing lots of END anyway.

[Cantriped]

I didn't say it wasn't legal, I said it wasn't intended.

As for why it isn't appropriate, the answer is: Because of the nature of Advantages and the math surrounding them, and because the shenanigans you and Lucius cited were not how I intended the modifier to be used.

 

The intent was to allow things like a Mental Blast that added your EGO to its Effect Roll, or for the character to buy an Independent Advantage that let them use their DEX instead of their STR to wield a Rapier. Not to let you pay 15 CP to add 60 APs or more to a 5 APs Attack Power (by applying all your primary Characteristics to it).

 

I've rewritten the modifier now to more accurately match my intent. Now you can only ever apply one Characteristic to the Effect Roll of an Attack Power using this modifier, and you must choose the added Characteristic from a limited list (STR, DEX, CON, INT, EGO, or PRE).

[Lucius]

 

Hm.

 

I'll buy multiple iterations of the Power, Linked together, each enhanced by a separate characteristic.

 

No, wait, better yet, each enhanced by the same characteristic.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary points out that now that means I'm counting the opponent's defenses multiple times too

[Cantriped]

You can already buy multiple linked HAs or HKAs to do much the same thing... and people don't. So I'm not really worried enough (about people using the advantage to get the equivalent of Reduced Penetration) to bother writing in a prohibition against it.