Christopher R Taylor Posted July 3, 2017 Report Share Posted July 3, 2017 The shield's ability to absorb impact and attack is very, er, inconsistent in the movies. Sometimes he can take Thor's full haymaker attack, sometimes a grenade blows him hundreds of feet. So, its kind of a coin flip. But that's less about the shield than er, creative writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted July 4, 2017 Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 I apologise if my reading of the rules on STR based on Range is at odds with 6e proper - I don't actually have that and am using Champions Complete, which does leave out and simplify some things. That's cool. All you need to do in that case is replace HA with Blast of a desired power level, or have a normal HA and use the throwing rules, with Bounce to get it back to his hand. I'd probably go with Blast because he uses it like that so much. eg 8d6 Blast (40) +2 CSL with Strike, Block and Bounce (6); Range Based on STR (-1/4), OIF Indestructible Shield (-1/2); 26 points. You could add 1 recoverable charge, but I tend to go with NOT having the shield being more of a special effect or plot point for Cap - easily handled through OIF, just as I feel OIF works better than OAF. But for some other shield slinging character who loses their toy more often, those would work. Obviously you might want to add in rPD/rED, Deflection, Reflection, Barrier and so forth (even Stretching). Those DO provide effects that are commonly seen, though you can't judge from a comic or movie if it was done through Block, barrier or regular defenses. My aim was to demonstrate that you can get by with a minimalist approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted July 4, 2017 Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 I used the Indirect Advantage to represent any 'bounces' made in the path of the 'throw'. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted July 4, 2017 Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 I used the Indirect Advantage to represent any 'bounces' made in the path of the 'throw'. HM Well, that works too. It's really just how you want to spend the points. Indirect isn't going to be needed for a lot of targets (i.e. there is a direct line, or in HtH). I'd rather use Bounce and CSLs; when not bouncing you can use them for OCV or DCV, or to increase damage (at 2 per DC). As a thought... you can use CSLs to offset reducing your DC when Spreading. So Cap can even hit two mooks at full power with two CSLs used that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted July 4, 2017 Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 I used the Indirect Advantage to represent any 'bounces' made in the path of the 'throw'. HM Combat skill levels can do that too. It's cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted July 4, 2017 Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 And that's the beauty of using a VPP since multiple 'thrown' slots can be created without increasing the cost. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted July 4, 2017 Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 Mrinku I too am using CC. Btwf CC did leave out that stipulation, it's no biggie. Iirc, ranged on STR works out about the same cost as TK. I'm just surprised is all that it got left out. I also take a different route with HA and advantages with CC since it doesn't go into prorated STR and advantages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted July 4, 2017 Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 In this case it does seem an odd omission, since HA is used to build clubs and other blunt weapons, which you might often want to build as throwable. Thor's Hammer, for example, which would be neither OAF (probably not a focus at all) or a 1-use recoverable Charge, since it magically returns. Now THAT would be a good example of where I'd use Indirect instead of the Bouncing rules Maybe if they'd saved a page by designing a one-page character sheet (ideally one with space for a character portrait...). There were at least four editions of the game that managed that quite easily (I'm not familiar with 5e). Having powers and skills on the flipside? WTF? Get it all on the front and use the back to record the ongoing saga and other business that isn't needed in combat. (Sorry, bugbear rant off) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted July 4, 2017 Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 Mrinku I've allowed builds with ranged on HA before. (As I said in 5thr its legal for Heroic). To me what's more confusing is that you can legally build HKA with the ranged advantage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasBroot Posted July 4, 2017 Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 Here are additional slots to my previous build: 0 9) Fall From Any Height: Leaping 120m, Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4) (75 Active Points); Conditional Power Power does not work in Ubiquitous Circumstances (Only to stop falling damage; -2) Real Cost: 16 [Notes: This represents the Vibranium versions of the shield shown in Earth 616 and the MCU.] - END=6 HM For 75 active points I think I'd rather take 75 PD (only to stop falling damage). No endurance and you could fall from orbit and not take body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durzan Malakim Posted July 4, 2017 Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 For 75 active points I think I'd rather take 75 PD (only to stop falling damage). No endurance and you could fall from orbit and not take body. Elegant as this is, a 75 PD exceeds most PC's campaign limits for defenses, unless your GM is feeling generous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasBroot Posted July 4, 2017 Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 True, but when using theorycraft you can't really factor in limits that aren't universal - like the active points used in the power it's being compared to, It's to point out the cost associated as much as anything - I *think* 30 points of armor will technically stop you from taking body at terminal velocity (but not the stun - even the 75 might be hard pressed on that) and is under most games caps. That said I'd personally be inclined to 'let' someone exceed limits for such a specific situation anyways: If I denied it they'd just come back with a Desolidify (cannot pass through objects, falling damage only) or a 1 meter teleport, no relative velocity, must cross intervening space, triggered within 1 meter of the ground while falling, some variation of triggered flight, or something even more clever. All would let you fall from orbit and actually are probably fewer points but, like the leaping, while they're (probably) mechanically sound I don't feel they accurately replicate the 'feel' of what's happening... your shield is absorbing the fall damage. Why not let it? It's my opinion that the simpler you make the conditions for accepting a *very limited and situational defensive power* (-2 in the original post) exceeding a campaign 'limit' the less likely someone is to need a master's degree in Hero System Studies to play along and try and get around said limit.. edit: Actually I think terminal velocity (Professor Wikipedia recommends 320 km/h) works out to be: 320 km/h x 1000 m / 3600 (seconds/segments in an hour) = 88 meters per segment. That's a 14d6 move through against the earth? 75 would stop all but the most extreme fall damage and 40-50 will do it on average. 30 will stop all body like I guessed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted July 4, 2017 Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 Just a 1m triggered teleport with negates velocity at the end would do That's what, like 8 points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted July 5, 2017 Report Share Posted July 5, 2017 You cheeky boy In regards to using PD, Flight, Damage Reduction or even Damage Negation to offset velocity damage (and it should include being thrown and probably knockback, so the limitation probably won't be as generous as you may have thought), I'd throw in a "Requires Skill Roll" too, probably using Breakfall, but if you're using a Power Pool maybe the dedicated skill for altering the pool. Breakfall on its own can reduce the damage, but the modifier for a long fall makes those impractical (-1 per 4m). A mere 100m drop gives a -25... Also... I'd have thought 75PD would be overkill anyway if the aim was to prevent BODY damage. Everyone has 2PD anyway, and someone like Cap has a fair bit more. Terminal Velocity is 30d6... assume a base 15PD or so and you could probably make such a fall survivable with as little as +10PD (taking some, but not a critical amount of BODY). +20 PD on top of Cap's base should be enough to prevent any BODY damage in most cases. Staying conscious is another matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted July 5, 2017 Report Share Posted July 5, 2017 I agree with your logic on breaking campaign limits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted July 5, 2017 Report Share Posted July 5, 2017 A lot depends on what version of the Marvel shield is being modeled Earth 616 Proto-Adamantium (a unique alloy of Vibranium, steel, and an unknown third component.) or pure Vibranium. Also, does it work against Physical Damage as well as Energy Damage? Is it magnetic? does it conduct heat or electricity? Picking which version to model will go a long way in determining the best ways to model it. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted July 5, 2017 Report Share Posted July 5, 2017 Fortunately for my own campaigns I'm more than happy to just go with "reasonable facimilie" for my tribute stuff. Plus I tend to gravitate to low-mid power levels. You have to be careful with HERO about doing beneficial absolutes (i.e. Immune to Fire, Absorbs All Momentum), since it is at heart a game that provides specific levels of effect for a specific cost. Non-beneficial absolutes are, conversely, usually fine (Cannot Kill, Does not Work Underwater). With NPCs (especially mega villains) you CAN get away with it, since you don't need to balance points. There's not much practical difference between simply saying Flame-o the Fire Master is totally immune to fire damage and giving him sufficient levels of Damage Negation (only vs Fire) at double the campaign's DC cap and whatever else may be required like Hardened Power Defense. But I empathise with folks that still need to get it all coded up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted July 5, 2017 Report Share Posted July 5, 2017 Just a 1m triggered teleport with negates velocity at the end would do That's what, like 8 points? For falling, 1m Flight (glide only) will sort you out for 0 points (unless I've missed an "any power costs at least one real point" rule; I only have the CC version of 6e) - you never get a chance to build up falling damage in the first place and gently descend at 2m per phase... But that's clearly a different special effect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted July 5, 2017 Report Share Posted July 5, 2017 Mrinku I know that CC it does state that minimum cost is 1 CP-where at the moment though is a good guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasBroot Posted July 5, 2017 Report Share Posted July 5, 2017 Is terminal velocity 30d6? I honestly thought it was but I didn't have my copy of CC in front of me ... is it somewhere in there? Did I do math for nothing? (Although interesting the see the difference between what a terminal velocity impact *should* do using the velocity/move through rules vs what they decided it does do) Like I said - the 75 was to illustrate the cost of the 120 meter leap (same price, cool design, much weaker effect - orbit fall vs medium skyscraper). If I wanted to take a serious stab at it *and* respect a campaign cap of say 30 PD I'd make a compound power: Shield Fall: (Total: 75 Active Cost, 75 Real Cost) Resistant Protection (10 PD) (Real Cost: 15) plus Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75% (Real Cost: 60) Slot Cost: 7f I had enough points using a 75 point slot to cover falling from orbit onto spikes or something (Killing attack) and walking away with (assuming a 20 PD base on the rest of the character) with probably less than 5 body and probably 18-22 stun (even if that 10d6 killing impact against spikes was defended against solely by the rPD of the shield fall power - 35 average body - 10 = 25/4 = 6 body) And there's really nothing beside the GM making pleading doe eyes (or more likely limiting combining defensive powers) to not just use that as the shield's basic defensive slot against physical damage all the time since I didn't bother putting limitations on it (no real need - powers in multipower slots are crazy like that). Suddenly allowing a campaign limit break of +75 PD for one specific situation looks a lot more appealing. (0 body, 30 stun if the 75 was the only PD applied - 15 stun if you assume a base of 15 PD when not using that power.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. MID-Nite Posted July 5, 2017 Report Share Posted July 5, 2017 The versions in the equipment guides(regardless of version) have always been more than adequate for my needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted July 6, 2017 Report Share Posted July 6, 2017 Is terminal velocity 30d6? I honestly thought it was but I didn't have my copy of CC in front of me ... is it somewhere in there? Did I do math for nothing? (Although interesting the see the difference between what a terminal velocity impact *should* do using the velocity/move through rules vs what they decided it does do) p.139 Falling. The maximum falling speed is given as 60m/segment, and damage is 1d6 per 2m of velocity. The maximum velocity should vary depending on a few factors like density, local gravity and atmospheric pressure (which are always possible variations in a superhero game), and I'm sure 6e proper goes into that, but this is the right limit for regular humans on Earth. A character that can change their body dimensions through Stretching should be able to reduce their maximum falling speed somewhat, even if they haven't gone all the way and bought Flight. 10 points of the dimension changing add to Stretching would let you quarter your thickness and double your height and width for example, for a fourfold increase in your area. Don't have the math or engineering to say what that would do to your terminal velocity, though impact is still probably going to hurt a lot. (That character could also stretch to *decrease* their cross section if they want to hit the ground even harder...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasBroot Posted July 6, 2017 Report Share Posted July 6, 2017 I knew I recognised that 30d6 from somewhere. Funny. That 60 m/s is closer to someone falling spread eagle than simply free falling (again according to Professor Wikipedia). As an aside one of the math guys in my gaming group (definitely not my forte) started playing around a formula after he realized that the hundred ton 1.9 meter tall hero with density increase hits the ground for the same amount of damage as a 1.3 meter tall 40 kg child ("That's just not right") - he started by calculating force (the good old f=ma) and then determining what that force could 'move' if applied to an object and taking the resulting mess and applying it to the strength table under lift (and grumbling about the inaccuracy of that since 'lift' is above your head and hold to take a few steps... not move one inch off the ground, push, pull, drag). The imprecise nature of it had him abandoning the idea in disgust but I thought it was a neat idea - and probably utterly impractical. Best to leave it alone probably (or, since being crushed by objects does damage based on how much strength is needed to lift them, add their weight to the fall damage - a hundred ton object (str 60 = 12d6) falling a distance needed to take 8d6 would take 20d6 instead (so an M1 Abrams tank would actually take body instead of shrugging off an 8d6 attack against its PD - though yes I know the tank armor was probably bought with Real Armor as a limitation). That could get out of hand with a game's DC caps in a hurry if weaponized, though ("Cannonball!" screams the density increase hero turning off his flight a hundred meters above his Entangled target). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted July 7, 2017 Report Share Posted July 7, 2017 Okay, apparently the terminal velocity formula is: v = the square root of ((2*m*g)/(ρ*A*C)) v=velocity, m=mass, g=acceleration due to gravity, p=density of the fluid the object is falling through, A=the projected area of the object (i.e. area perpendicular to the direction of fall) and C=drag coefficient. So... turns out the relationship is pretty simple when all you're changing is the area. Terminal velocity is proportional to the inverse square of the area, so squaring the area halves the terminal velocity. And if you quarter the area you'd double the terminal velocity, all other considerations being constant. In other words, with my example of using Stretching to double height and width, terminal velocity should be about 30m per segment, or 15d6 on impact. There is a caveat, though... changing the character's thickness would probably affect the drag coefficient. But for a quick and dirty calculation this should do. Terminal velocity has a square relationship with mass, so quartering the mass halves terminal velocity, and likewise quadrupling mass doubles terminal velocity. That should suffice for most HERO purposes - density increase, growth and shrinking are couched in terms of doubling and halving already. Probably worth noting too that none of this affects falling damage prior to reaching terminal velocity. A stretcher can't use their powers this way to avoid taking 5d6 from falling 10m (they'd be better off using them to grab something), and Super-Dense Girl is only going to take the same damage regardless, even if she could reach horrifyingly fast speeds falling from orbit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steriaca Posted July 7, 2017 Report Share Posted July 7, 2017 Has anyone looked into VVP, Only For Shield Powers (-1/4 or -1/2 depending on how many powers are logically excluded)? This would allow your Cap clone to slide on his shield (Running), use the edge to cut (HKA/RKA), reflect lasers (Deflection), Shield Toss (Blast), Shield Rush (HtH Attack), ect... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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