'17-18 NBA Thread

[Starlord]

Yes, LeBron and Kyrie embraced...but I still think LeBron wanted to whisper in Kyrie's ear, "Dude...I never get hurt." 

[Pariah]

The Jazz beat Oklahoma City?

 

Huh.

[Michael Hopcroft]

The Jazz beat Oklahoma City?

 

Huh.

It's an 82-game season, and the league is full of world-class athletes. Any team can pull out a win against any other team on a given night. The question is -- can they do it consistently?

[Badger]

It's an 82-game season, and the league is full of world-class athletes. Any team can pull out a win against any other team on a given night. The question is -- can they do it consistently?

 

Except the Knicks.   

[Enforcer84]

And the Bulls. 

[Starlord]

I was thinking the Suns....

[Starlord]

The Jazz beat Oklahoma City?

 

Huh.

 

Not surprising this early...three ball dominators who haven't played together.

[Badger]

Anthony is going to be the hard one I think.  Westbrook is a PG who gets Ast even if he is shoot-first.  And while Indiana wasnt a team I get to watch more than 1 every other year.  George has struck as not being overly selfish  (then again not sure if Indy had enough to test that).  Anthony is known to be one of the premeir ball hogs of the 21st century this side of Kobe

[Enforcer84]

yeah and he can't/won't defend anymore.

 

Portland's been a pleasant surprise opening 2-1 on the road and only losing a squeaker to Milwaukee who has been playing quite well thankyouverymuch in the young season.

[Starlord]

The Orlando Magic are 4-1, 1st in the Eastern Conference and have beaten the Spurs and the Cavaliers.

 

Huh?

[Badger]

Golden State likes getting ejected this year.

 

 

CHicago Bulls like beating up on each other this year.

[Michael Hopcroft]

I managed to find this article on the "Xs and Os" of how basketball is actually played at the NBA level, and how it differs from the way it was played even ten years ago.  It makes some statements that contradict what casual fans assert without realizing it.

 

The chief of those is the casual fan belief that players don't shoot well anymore. Players actually shoot better than before -- they are, however, usually denied the shots they would have taken twenty years ago that would be virtually automatic to them today. It wasn't that long ago that a thirty-foot three to win or tie the game would be considered an act of foolhardy desperation. Today's NBA-caliber shooter, unless you put someone in his face, will more often than not make that shot. You have to defend the entire court, all the time, or you will get burned.

[Badger]

I wouldn't say more often than not (barring Curry, maybe).  But, the uncontested 30 footer would be reliable enough to sweat over for sure.

 

The main reason for the cant shoot thing is a by-product of the late 90s, when everybody thought they were 3-point shooters (and most were wrong).  Now they actually learned to shoot those 3s.  (note: they probably got that idea when they moved the 3-pt line in for a couple of years)

 

I miss the dominating inside center, but except for (an overrated*) Shaq and for a few years a young Dwight Howard, those haven't existed since the early-mid 90s when Ewing-Olajuwon-David Robinson started getting old.  The 7-foot 3-pt shooter is an interesting novelty, but less fun to watch when everybody 7 ft is doing it.  (the way it is in today's game, though).  Still better than 1995-2010, when half the offenses played keep away with their own center.

 

 

*Yes, Shaq is overrated, too many people seem to think he was the greatest center.  He was more or less the last traditional center, but he doesn't even crack my Top 5 for centers (Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, and a depressingly severely underrated Moses Malone are my top 5, for the curious, with Robinson and Ewing at least having good cases to be as good or better than Shaq)

[Enforcer84]

I'd put Hassan Whiteside, the Stifle Tower (Rudy Gobert),  and Andre Drummond as old school centers. Neither strays to the 3 point line with anything resembling regularity, they are defense minded but can score in the post or throw down a dunk or two. 

 

But the game moved back outside (The big men used to shoot 30% and never stayed in the lanes until George Mikan)  the athletic wing scorers have been been with us since the 60's and the 3 point shooting became the major weapon 4 decades after it was introduced in the ABA.

 

the Number of truly dominant Centers has been - what 25 over nearly 100 years of basketball? The fact of the matter is that in the NBA size matters  - which is why 7'5'' stiffs have multi year careers. Olajuwon didn't have the 3 point shooting stroke of say Karl Anthony Towns or Boogie Cousins but he could force centers away from basket to open lanes. Ewing hit a few 3s in his day too. Being able to shoot from outside the lane has been important for the 5 forever - with exceptions being Wilt, Shaq, Moses, and Kareem (the former three who just bullied their way in to the paint (though Wilt and Moses could do so with finesse as well), Kareem developed an unbeatable weapon based on his length and Bill Russell was just a bad shot. 

 

The main post innovators were guys like McHale, Hawkins, etc who were smaller or less bouncy. 

 

As for shooting well "anymore" shooting has only gotten better looking back into the golden age and seeing just how crappy shooters were. Lonzo Ball's horrific start would have been pretty normal in the 50's

 

 

[Badger]

 

Yeah, the 2nd best guy to Mikan in the 1940s, seems to have been a guy named Joe Fulks, who was supposedly one of the first jump shooters, but he did have a rep for shooting just about anywhere.  I think he was officially a (6"5) PF, but he probably would qualify as athletic wing scorer (or resembling one as we know it)

 

Note: Course, he also had the rep of being lackadaisical on defense, so I guess he was proto-Carmelo

 

2nd Note: And thinks for reminding me of Hawkins, for some reason I always forget he was a PF/C.

 

 

[Badger]

ANd as much as I cant stand LaVar Ball.  I cant help but think they are being way too hard on Lonzo Ball.  Stephen A. Smith (any guesses on what the A stands for) wanted to crucify him after game 1, for example.

 

Note: Course, like centers, I am still a little behind in my PG thinking, in considering them more as "the distributor".  Don't get me wrong, I think PG is a position that needs to do a lot of things well, but my mind is still a little stuck in the feeling of they should "defer to the other 4 guys".  Though, I am coming a little out of that (though I do feel someone out there needs to resemble a "primary" ball handler,  but of course, we have had plenty of SFs take that role, probably dating at least back to Havlicek and Barry if not someone before)

 

 

[Michael Hopcroft]

5 hours ago, Badger said:

ANd as much as I cant stand LaVar Ball.  I cant help but think they are being way too hard on Lonzo Ball.  Stephen A. Smith (any guesses on what the A stands for) wanted to crucify him after game 1, for example.

 

Note: Course, like centers, I am still a little behind in my PG thinking, in considering them more as "the distributor".  Don't get me wrong, I think PG is a position that needs to do a lot of things well, but my mind is still a little stuck in the feeling of they should "defer to the other 4 guys".  Though, I am coming a little out of that (though I do feel someone out there needs to resemble a "primary" ball handler,  but of course, we have had plenty of SFs take that role, probably dating at least back to Havlicek and Barry if not someone before)

 

 

People are harder on Lonzo Ball than they should be precisely because his father has painted such a huge target on his son's back. That level of hype places demands on the player that can;t possibly be met twn games into an NBA career. And those demands will not help him develop this season, and this will make Luke Walton's job as head coach nearly impossible.

 

It's hard to judge precisely how good a point guard (or any other young player) is while he is on a bad team, and the Lakers are a couple of years and at least two good free agent signings away from being a non-bad team. And Lonzo clearly has a lot of learning to do about the organized game in general, not to mention the pro game. Being the focus of everyone's attention in the media isn't going to help him do that. Fortunately he appears to be showing himself to be a hard worker, and at least somewhat coachable. He needs to move out of his dad's house, though. Seriously.

 

As far as as the role of the 1, all the numbers are sort of arbitrary when you think about it. Anyone remember what a great job Norm Nixon did as point guard for the Lakers in the '80s? No? Well, that was where he was listed on the roster alongside a certain Mister Johnson.  Nixon fit the physical profile of the traditional 1 guard, but had an entirely different role.

[Enforcer84]

6 hours ago, Badger said:

 

Yeah, the 2nd best guy to Mikan in the 1940s, seems to have been a guy named Joe Fulks, who was supposedly one of the first jump shooters, but he did have a rep for shooting just about anywhere.  I think he was officially a (6"5) PF, but he probably would qualify as athletic wing scorer (or resembling one as we know it)

 

Note: Course, he also had the rep of being lackadaisical on defense, so I guess he was proto-Carmelo

 

2nd Note: And thinks for reminding me of Hawkins, for some reason I always forget he was a PF/C.

 

 

Fulks went to WKU and I know more about him because Logan did a story on him

I think the best Big Men besides Mikan was Dolph Schayes (6'8'' and he shot .380 for his career) the game wasn't predicated on the idea of a post game. That really came to fruition late 60's with Wilt, Kareem, Elgin Baylor (who was a Charles Barkley Prototype)

 

Funny you should mention the lazy bit. Was listening to the Lowe Post Podcast and he was talking to a sportswriter/author who wrote a book contrasting the Lakers 33 winstreak team and the Warriors team that won the championship last year. And the book tended to focus on what happened with the Lakers teams with lots of interviews with guys like Jerry West and Pat Riley, et. al. And one of the things that came out of that is the kind of bizarre blanking out of Elgin Baylor in Laker history, and the amusing story that Elgin admitted to not liking to practice or put in the work. He was proud and didn't want to go to the bench but he didn't want to work hard. Not something you'll hear from the old guard very often. 

 

I kind of like the "True Shooting Percentage" advanced stat even if it does move my hero Buck Williams down from 10th in the career FG% list down to 26th on the TS list. TS% is based on how many points your shots earn - so it takes 2pt 3pt and FT into consideration. So a guy like Shaq who shot 58% FG is hurt by his abysmal free throw shooting. And a guy like Steph Curry is vaulted because he hits a decent to high percentage on all three categories. Though Artis Gilmore is still the king. And DeAndre Jordon is close behind because their post games were so high (though Jordan doesn't shoot outside 10 feet IIRC and has no where near the volume of a guy like Artis, Shaq, or Curry) 

[Enforcer84]

6 hours ago, Badger said:

ANd as much as I cant stand LaVar Ball.  I cant help but think they are being way too hard on Lonzo Ball.  Stephen A. Smith (any guesses on what the A stands for) wanted to crucify him after game 1, for example.

 

Note: Course, like centers, I am still a little behind in my PG thinking, in considering them more as "the distributor".  Don't get me wrong, I think PG is a position that needs to do a lot of things well, but my mind is still a little stuck in the feeling of they should "defer to the other 4 guys".  Though, I am coming a little out of that (though I do feel someone out there needs to resemble a "primary" ball handler,  but of course, we have had plenty of SFs take that role, probably dating at least back to Havlicek and Barry if not someone before)

 

 

Lonzo is shooting horribly from all aspects. He's shooting 50% from the free throw line and if we're going to crap on centers for not shooting better than 60% a guard shouldn't get a pass. That said, the Lakers are playing pretty darn well despite this and his rebounding and assists are well above and marginally above average for his position respectively. He's too skinny to guard even smaller players at the moment and I'm not willing to call him a bust ...I gave Anthony Bennett three years before I finally added my name to the piling on. (and Ball seems mentally stronger than Bennett who (as his GM said in a book about the draft - "“The issue with Anthony was, and we had no way of knowing it at the time, the kid had no desire to overcome adversity whatsoever. As soon as it was hard, he was out,” (David) Griffin said. “His whole life, he rolled out of bed bigger, better, and more talented than everybody else. As soon as it was hard, it was over. And I was the one on campus at UNLV. I’m the one who got sold the bill of goods and I bought it hook, line, and sinker. You f*** up sometimes."))

 

I don't think Ball is that guy. I think he'll improve and the Lakers got a steal in Kyle Kuzma, if Larry Nance Jr. Comes back they have a solid team and I think Walton is a good coach. As much as I hate the Lakers (and it's a lot) I think they're definitely moving in the right direction to be relevant again and I think Ball will be the center-piece...but he'll need to learn to shoot. Really - he's taller than half the point guards he faces he should be able to post up or shoot over them. He's been atrocious. Daddy didn't do him any favors by being a raging asswhipe either.

[Enforcer84]

Can I say how interesting this year has been? Cleveland is looking beyond mortal at the moment though LeBron did remind us it's his league until further notice. The Warriors have 3 losses and are shooting amazing...that's scary.

The Magic look quietly legit. As do the Pistons. Things will shake out in the end but it's been a fun ride. 

[Badger]

3 hours ago, Enforcer84 said:

Lonzo is shooting horribly from all aspects. He's shooting 50% from the free throw line and if we're going to crap on centers for not shooting better than 60% a guard shouldn't get a pass. That said, the Lakers are playing pretty darn well despite this and his rebounding and assists are well above and marginally above average for his position respectively. He's too skinny to guard even smaller players at the moment and I'm not willing to call him a bust ...I gave Anthony Bennett three years before I finally added my name to the piling on. (and Ball seems mentally stronger than Bennett who (as his GM said in a book about the draft - "“The issue with Anthony was, and we had no way of knowing it at the time, the kid had no desire to overcome adversity whatsoever. As soon as it was hard, he was out,” (David) Griffin said. “His whole life, he rolled out of bed bigger, better, and more talented than everybody else. As soon as it was hard, it was over. And I was the one on campus at UNLV. I’m the one who got sold the bill of goods and I bought it hook, line, and sinker. You f*** up sometimes."))

 

I don't think Ball is that guy. I think he'll improve and the Lakers got a steal in Kyle Kuzma, if Larry Nance Jr. Comes back they have a solid team and I think Walton is a good coach. As much as I hate the Lakers (and it's a lot) I think they're definitely moving in the right direction to be relevant again and I think Ball will be the center-piece...but he'll need to learn to shoot. Really - he's taller than half the point guards he faces he should be able to post up or shoot over them. He's been atrocious. Daddy didn't do him any favors by being a raging asswhipe either.

 

Yeah, Lonzo has shown to be somewhat the quiet, hard worker type.  And I give everybody at least a year (and usually 2-3) before the bust tag comes out. Of course, the other Ball brothers I don't see making it, unless they change their attitudes drastically.   I haven't seen enough to judge but it does seem Lonzo once he gets rid of the ball, just gets lost in the shuffle,  which tends to happen to the assertive-challenged.

[Michael Hopcroft]

8 hours ago, Badger said:

 

Yeah, Lonzo has shown to be somewhat the quiet, hard worker type.  And I give everybody at least a year (and usually 2-3) before the bust tag comes out. Of course, the other Ball brothers I don't see making it, unless they change their attitudes drastically.   I haven't seen enough to judge but it does seem Lonzo once he gets rid of the ball, just gets lost in the shuffle,  which tends to happen to the assertive-challenged.

Lonzo might be one of those players would would have benefited from another year in school, working on those very qualities and gaining postseason experience in the NCAA tournament. The NCAA really needs to clean up its mess in the way it treats its student-athletes so that players don't lose quite as much financially when they stay in school a second and third year, building up their skills and gaining academic experience.

 

As it is, the other Ball brothers are virtually pros already and might not play organized ball at all under the current system, all because their father is a solipsistic jackass.

[Enforcer84]

Somehow, I don't think LaVar actually wants them to be good ball-players, just famous ones. 

[Enforcer84]

Eric Bledsoe to the Bucks could be important. Bledsoe is healthy and eager to play - the Suns were stashing him to lose on purpose last year. And they've managed to piss him off this year. 

I'll be interested in his return to the court. 

[Badger]

Of course, Giannis "My name is too long for Badger to pronounce correctly" is in effect the "point"