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Cumulative Flash?


g3taso

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Is this kosher? Cumulative doesn't apply to stuff that does damage, and flashes dont. If this is good, I'm thinking of this as a high-power rapid flash device, like a flashbang grenade.

 

Sight Group Flash 1d6, Cumulative (+1/2), Autofire (3 shots; +1/4), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (14 Active Points)

 

 

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Flash technically uses the Body damage mechanic.  Hero Designer lists the following as reason that it's not a legal modifier:  Cumulative cannot be applied to abilities that cause STUN or BODY damage.

 

And from 6e1 226

If a character’s affected by a Flash, generally he can’t suffer any further effect from other Flashes of the same Sense Group. Once he’s Flashed by the first Flash, he cannot perceive further Flash effects with the Flashed (“blinded”) Sense until the first Flash wears off. The GM may waive this rule in light of special effects or other considerations, if appropriate.

 

So basically what you are trying to do would be in GM permission only territory.

 

HM

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Yes, sort of:

Per CC 102, Flash meets the "Applies To" prerequisites for Cumulative as Flash is an Effect Roll applied against a Defense to determine non-damaging effect (Counting an effect based on Normal Damage BODY is not the same as actually causing Normal Damage BODY).

 

However... Cumulative powers are subject to a Maximum Effect equal to the maximum possible result ((# of Dice)x(2) segments in this case) regardless of how the power originally stacked, if at all. So the power described above will never last more than 2 segments, regardless of how many of those Shots hit, because Cumulative is causing subsequent Effect Rolls to add to the initial Effect Roll (up to it's maximum) as opposed to stacking with or overriding the initial Effect Roll as described by Flash (CC 68). Whether or not an unmodified Flash stacks, overrides, or has no effect depends on the special effect of the Flash (Per CC 68).

 

You are probably be better off buying a Constant Flash with enough dice of Effect to keep the target blinded between your phases instead.

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Is this kosher? Cumulative doesn't apply to stuff that does damage, and flashes dont. If this is good, I'm thinking of this as a high-power rapid flash device, like a flashbang grenade.

 

Sight Group Flash 1d6, Cumulative (+1/2), Autofire (3 shots; +1/4), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (14 Active Points)

 

A 3d6 Sight Group Flash would be 15 points so I'm not sure 1 point is worth the trouble considering that the Flash effects only last 1 Segment per BODY rolled either way.

 

HM

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Not sure I understand the design philosophy behind this... if it's to overwhelm a flash defense higher than your base dice why not not take a 3d6 flash?

 

If it's to keep them blinded forever then why not 

 

You are probably be better off buying a Constant Flash with enough dice of Effect to keep the target blinded between your phases instead.

 

yeah, that.

 

The cumulative thing Cantriped points out aside (limited to maximum able to be rolled on one dice) it just wouldn't make 'sense' for a flash to be cumulative.

 

"Ah! Ze first flashbang has hit! I can see or hear nothing!"

*boom*

"Noo! A second flashbang that I neither saw nor heard because I'm already dazzled has hit! I am blinded longer!"

*boom*

"Make it stop! I can't stand not being able to see or hear zee additional flashbangs that are impacting near me!"

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For a typical Flashbang Grenade, a much more effective build would just use a high-dice Area of Effect Flash (Sight) with OAF and Charges. More expensive yes, but as it is the original build is completely ineffective and not even worth the 3-14 CP it would cost to purchase (3 being it's point value with OAF and 1 Charge).

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If we take the normal cause of flash, a quick bright light, a cumulative effect is impossible.  If the GM allows a flash to be something else, say a spell which causes temporary blindness, a cumulative effect could happen.  I would say, it is then up to the GM whether they'd want to allow a cumulative effect as its beyond the original design of the flash effect as the game designers figured it would be used for.  Personally, I might allow it but only if the number of segments still blinded were also treated as flash defense but only for certain types of flashes.  They would still have to buy the cumulative and no advantage would cut or disable the the defense from being blinded.

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no advantage would cut or disable the the defense

I would expect the Armor Piercing advantage to behave as usual, if purchased.  (If you meant to say you wouldn't allow an advantage that cut or disabled the defense to be purchased, I get it: that's a GM's prerogative.  But that's not what was written, hence my follow-up.)

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The cumulative thing Cantriped points out aside (limited to maximum able to be rolled on one dice) it just wouldn't make 'sense' for a flash to be cumulative.

 

"Ah! Ze first flashbang has hit! I can see or hear nothing!"

*boom*

"Noo! A second flashbang that I neither saw nor heard because I'm already dazzled has hit! I am blinded longer!"

*boom*

"Make it stop! I can't stand not being able to see or hear zee additional flashbangs that are impacting near me!"

Pretty sure that a lot of bright light/loud noise flash effects do not remove the sense entirely, but dazzle it. The inability to see/hear clearly does not mean no further damage can be done to the sensory organs, short term or long term.

 

Eyeballs and eardrums don't just switch off and withdraw into the skull for protection.

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Damage, sure - blind people wear sunglasses because they can't see the sun hammering their eyes to know to avert them... but looking at the sun makes them no more blind.  That's a little different, though: Damage due to prolonged exposure to flash attacks would be a different mechanic in the Hero system (Does Body? Low powered drain with a high cap and delayed recovery?)

 

I'm curious, though...

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Damage due to prolonged exposure to flash attacks would be a different mechanic in the Hero system (Does Body? Low powered drain with a high cap and delayed recovery?)

 

I'm curious, though...

Transformation to add a Physical Complication .... with the Transformation level (i.e. Minor/Major/Severe) being dictated by the level of impairment resulting from the attack.

 

Examples:

  • Minor Transformation to add a Physical Complication (Hearing Impaired: Infrequently, Slightly)
  • Major Transformation to add a Physical Complication (Hearing Impaired: Frequently, Greatly)
  • Severe Transformation to add a Physical Complication (Hearing Impaired: All the Time, Fully) 

Buying this as a low-die attack makes a lot of sense ... especially if (in the case of a sound attack) it's AoE and constant (think effect of hearing the roar of a jet engine or a rock concert ... prolonged over time).  And, of course, it's already cumulative ... but it could make sense to buy it with the Partial Transformation advantage ... especially in the Major or Severe varietals.

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I would expect the Armor Piercing advantage to behave as usual, if purchased.  (If you meant to say you wouldn't allow an advantage that cut or disabled the defense to be purchased, I get it: that's a GM's prerogative.  But that's not what was written, hence my follow-up.)

No, I meant that if a person was blinded for 6 segments with an AP cumulative flash and hit with it again after a segment, the target would get an effective 5 defense for being blinded by the previous flash which could not be AP or Penetrated or anything else for that matter.  This "house rule" would prevent being hit with a very cheap endless blindness.

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While it make my brain hurt to envision a flash that can make someone already blind, even blinder every time it goes off, there are some concepts and special effects that could make it work.  A chemical that covers  your eyes up more, crumbling off slower, for example.

How about tear gas? Longer exposure creating a longer-lasting effect during which the target is unable to see clearly.

 

I don't believe I will be adopting Steve's view in the Rules Question forum.

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As much as I dislike the "vagueness" of it. I prefer the position CC/FHC takes regarding stacking Flash. Which is to say that it depends entirely on the special effect of the Flashes in question. Although Steve's answer does fit with the general principle he holds that you have to be able to percieve the Target Effect of a Sensory Power to be affected by it.

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Seems to me that a "stacking flash" enjoys a considerable advantage over a "non-stacking flash" and should carry a differing cost, whichever is considered to be the default. Making the default "does not stack" is not consistent with the write-ups of every other power, where "not stacking" is specifically called out and described, so I lean to stacking as the default, take a limitation if the target cannot be affected a second time while still dazzled by an existing application of the power.

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For those who didn't see:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/95658-overlapping-flash-durations/

 

While I'll admit I'm a little surprised that he didn't rule it 'greater effect overwrites lesser' his reasoning does make sense to me.  

 

Couldn't 'Flashes' that extend or last until certain condition are met be better simulated by Darkness? Or perhaps change environment?  

 

Tear gas, for example - you can't see until you get clear of the cloud. Is that really a Flash?  

 

Other powers have problems, sure: If you use Darkess to create the effect then you can't see the target afterwards, either.  Maybe selective would help?

 

Or perhaps use CE to force a large penalty to perception until you leave the cloud?

 

There are other ways to impair someones senses in Hero. 

 

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The reason I wouldn't use Darkness (or Change Environment) is that the effect continues even after the person leaves the tear gas cloud. 

 

Looking at the 6E Equipment Guide, tear gas is a Constant NND AoE Flash, with Delayed Recovery (from APG) where each BODY = 1 Turn of effect.  So as long as you're in the AoE, you get the effect.  Since the continuing charge is only for 1 Turn, you wouldn't recover from the Flash before the Constant effect ends (unless someone has some sort of Healing Flash power).  But as GM, I could easily see a higher Flash roll in a later Phase would constitute a higher effect, even if the person was already Flashed.  (IOW, not much tear gas exposure initially, but the wind blew more concentrated gas into his face later = stronger Flash effect.) 

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As tear gas, I usually get around the problem by pairing darkness with inobvious power effects with a continuous flash with the same area of effect.  Thus you are constantly blinded while in the darkness area and you will still be blinded for a while after leaving the area of effect.

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Couldn't 'Flashes' that extend or last until certain condition are met be better simulated by Darkness? Or perhaps change environment?  

 

Tear gas, for example - you can't see until you get clear of the cloud. Is that really a Flash?

Darkness blinds everyone in the area, and prevents those outside from perceiving into the cloud. CE imposes penalties, not an inability to see. My Archer might well have an arrow that releases a small cloud of tear gas at your face, which irritates your eyes (the Flash) and dissipates. Its dissipation does not cause your eyes to become instantly better.

 

I did have a character with Darkness Grenades that also imposed a Triggered Flash on leaving the cloud some years back. By this logic, however, being caught in a second cloud of tear gas has no effect because the first tear gas hardens into eye protection until it wears off.

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I'd hesitate to call it 'protection' when you're still blind.  If you're in the second cloud when the first wears off you're blinded again - not a great tactical move.

 

It's not an immunity in the descriptive sense: Eyes watering and choking when you stagger from cloud to cloud should definitely still be how its described - it's just that mechanically there's no further effect.

 

Now Steve's ruling does allow one point of silliness:  You could create a fixed effect (1) Flash on a trigger that fires when you're subjected to a flash attack.  You blind yourself, sure, but it's better to be blinded for one segment than for whatever they roll.

 

I close my eyes!:  Sight Group Flash 1d6 (standard effect: 1 Segments), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; When targeted by a sight Flash attack; +1) (10 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only works on self; -1), No Range (-1/2)

 

(Though I think you'd be better off just buying 'x' many points of Flash defense instead)

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I used Change Environment to create the Flare spell from d20.

 

Flare:  Change Environment (-1 to Sight Group PER Rolls, -1 CV, Long-Lasting 1 Minute) (12 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, -1 1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Does not work on Flashed or blind creatures; -1/4)

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I close my eyes!:  Sight Group Flash 1d6 (standard effect: 1 Segments), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; When targeted by a sight Flash attack; +1) (10 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only works on self; -1), No Range (-1/2)

Why not make the standard effect 2 points of DEX count from the Trigger (I'm allowed to take LESS than an advantage would otherwise permit, right?).

 

I want mine to cost 0 END, so that makes the AP 12, and real point cost 5. Seems quite a bit more effective than 5 points of Flash Defense.

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