# Clips and Charges and The Limitation That Refused to Lighten Up

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Here's what's happening to me in HD:

I want to create a gun for the new administrator of the PCs' team. And she'd probably have several. So I'm setting them up in the Multipower, and adding the Common Modifier Charges.

I select 8 Charges, which is a -1/2 Limitation. Then I check Clips, because she'd have extra ammo. 2 Clips is a +1/4 mod to the Limitation, so it moves up to -1/4.

I push it up farther, to 4 Clips, which brings the total Limitation up to 0.

She'd be serious about this stuff; she doesn't have powers herself, and knows she may have to fight the team sooner or later. So I consider 6 or 8 clips?

When I step the Clips adder up, it goes not to 8 but 16, for a +3/4 Adder, making the total value of the Limitation ...0.

At first, I didn't understand the step from 2 to 8, but after consulting the Book (6E1 369), I found where pushing into Advantage territory gives you 4x the clips at each new step. However, what HD is not doing is showing it as an Advantage. The total Limitation Value, when it becomes an Advantage, never rises above -0.

32 Charges should be +1/4, but instead shows as 0.

250 Charges should be +1, but instead shows as 0.

2000 Charges should be +1 3/4, but instead shows as 0.

I can work around this with Custom Advantage, but someone not checking the math might get filled with a false sense of security. So I thought you ought to know.

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That is correct and in accordance with the rules of the system.

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Try applying the modifier directly to the power instead of the framework. The rules for that combo can be weird.

HM

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It still won't take on a positive value...Nor should it.

How many times could you use the power without the Charges Modifier? How are you gaining any advantage with a huge number of Charges? (You're not)

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well 0 END for Charges

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Sorry Simon, I was misreading the OP and misremembering the rule.  Rereading all the rules from 6e1 page 367-369 provides all the details.

HM

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Erratum from my previous post: The 2000 charge example should be +1, not +1 3/4. The table on 6E1 368 shows that value of Charges as an Advantage capping at +1, before taking anything like Continuing or Recoverable Charges.

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And if you apply Charges to a Power that costs END, it will max out at +1 - again, as dictated in the rules

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And if you apply Charges to a Power that costs END, it will max out at +1 - again, as dictated in the rules

Meanwhile, if you apply Charges as a Common Modifier in a Multipower in Hero Designer (meaning it's applied to all the powers inside), it will max out at -0.

Cost Powers

75     Multipower, 60-point reserve, all slots 4 clips of 16 Charges (+1/4) (75 Active Points) - END=
6f      1)  Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points) - END=0
6f      2)  Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points) - END=0
6f      3)  Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6, Area Of Effect (8m Radius Explosion; +1/4) (56 Active Points) - END=0
75     Blast 12d6 (75 Active Points); 4 clips of 16 Charges (+1/4) - END=[16]

EDIT: Yeah, the Multipower is doing something to the calculation, because while I was filling in a Blast inside the Multipower, the cost of the Multipower increased when the Charges changed to a +1/4. Meanwhile, the Blast inside the Multipower to which I applied the same Charges is showing a -0 modifier and a cost of 6f. Something is very wrong here.

EDIT: Clipping from a text export illustrating the problem. Shouldn't the slots of the Multipower with the Charges on all slots have higher active point costs?

Edited by Territan

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ONCE AGAIN: HD is doing things correctly.

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Territan, I I strongly recommend rereading the pages I mentioned above.

You should also look up the rules for applying Advantages directly to frameworks.

IF you still have questions about the rules you may want to post a question to Steve Long in the rules forum.

HM

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On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 3:19 PM, Simon said:

That is correct and in accordance with the rules of the system.

But they messed up in conquerors, killers & crooks. Mechassassin's gun is bought with charges in the framework and at +1/4 mod instead of 0 mod. I only came across it while converting to Hero designer using him as a template for one of my players

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I don't have that build in front of me, but there are plenty of configurations that can cause Charges to go over a +0 -- HD will follow all of these (despite my loathing of the Modifier).

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