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Adding Damage Reduction to itself?


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Let's assume a character has, oh say, Damage Reduction 1/2 vs rPD and rED. For whatever reason, there is a temporary bonus to the DR, such as 1/4 vs rPD/rED. Would you make that 3/4 DR then? I saw a writeup on the Dragon Mandarin where he has DR 1/2 vs rPD/rED and with a spell can add another 1/2 DR: how would you handle that?

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If I allowed it I would apply the higher first and then the lesser afterwards.

 

For example: If hit by 10 stun through defenses in your scenario I would reduce it to 5 (50%) and then reduce that 5 by a quarter (3.75  becomes 3 since rounding always favors the character in Hero).  

 

For Dragon Mandarin I would take the 10 and reduce to 5 then 2.5 (2).  That's the same as a true 75% reduction gotten to by a convoluted way and probably what the write up intended.

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It depends on how the "boost" to DR was done. 

  • If as an Aid, it would have to add enough to bring the DR up to 75% rPD & rED.  (Since 50% rPD & rED is 60 points, that means +60 points to bring it up to 75% rPD & rED.)  So you'd just apply DR once, dividing the total damage by 4.
  • If done as a separate DR (25% rPD & rED, for 30 points), according to the rules (6E1:184) you'd only get the 50% rPD & rED:

 

 

If a character has two or more Damage Reduction powers that could apply to the same attack, he can only apply one of them (he chooses which one) — he can’t apply multiple Damage Reductions to keep reducing the damage from a single attack.
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Champions Complete has the same rule (page 56)

 

If a character has two or more Damage Reduction powers
that could apply to the same attack, he chooses only one to
apply.
 
 
But I like making write ups work (a lot of them have glitches like this) - hence *if* I allowed it. 
 
Like Bolo said he really should have an Aid (or a flat out greater copy of the power in his spell pool - for example, he's normally 50% but has a slot with 75% in the pool for when those pesky heroes are getting serious).
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If you have two different ones, like "Damage Reduction vs metal" and "damage reduction vs magic" and someone throws Mjolnir at you, you only get the biggest one, not both.

 

But if you have 50% damage reduction and someone gives you an identical type of 25% damage reduction, I'd say they stack for 75%.

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If they both apply to the same attack, then I'd say you should go by active points, rather than the % of the individual reductions.

 

IDHMBIFOM, but if 50% Reduction costs 60 points and 75% Reduction costs 120 points, then 60 points + 60 points = 120 points.  So you only get 75% Reduction, even though you're adding two 50% together.

 

And I have said for a long time to be flexible and allow for greater granularity in Damage Reduction.  If someone adds 25% Reduction to the 50% Reduction you already have, that's 60 + 30 = 90 points.  I'd call it 66.67% Reduction or 2/3.  So divide the damage by 3, instead of 2 (50%) or 4 (75%).

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Yeah, active points for me. You are only allowed to apply one DR if you have more than one that applies, your choice which (just checked in CC).

 

By any chance, would that character's extra DR spell have different coverage? If he has rPD and rED that's already two separate DR purchases. But you can buy DR vs special effects - DR vs Magic will protect against both physical and energy based magical attacks. So maybe the base one is that, with a spell to cover mundane attacks?

 

Edit: Okay, read his entry in Villains I. So all this is is someone using the power pool to buy something he already has? That being the case, waste of time since the rules clearly say to choose one DR to use if more than one apply. He could, of course, conjure up 75% DR if he needed a bit of a boost.

 

It's really the same sort of thing as buying Desolidification twice, or having more than one gadget that gives you Radar. You need a point of difference between them to make it worth doing.

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The highest valued effect would take precedence.  I would not allow them to stack.  Stacking them would open a large can of worms.  For example, if one person can give another reduction why not 2?  What would happen if 5 people gave reduction, each one a little different?  25% non-resistant, 25% resistant, 25% resistant and difficult to dispel, 25% resistant and AoE, 75% non-resistant?

 

 

Note: this is how I would rule.  Your mileage may vary.

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Like DasBroot - I wouldn't expect to see it in a character build, but if it happened through a convincing concatenation of circumstances I would apply the modifiers serially and then multiply into the damage.*

50% with an extra 25% - that's 1/2 x 3/4 so multiply damage by 3/8!

 

*Technically if you took 31 damage and multiplied by 1/2 (15) then 3/4 (11) you get a different answer than if you multiply 31 by 3/8 (12) due to rounding.

Given the infrequency of this occurrence, and the tiny difference it makes I can't believe I even care about it - but dammit, if I wasn't a bit of a maths nerd I wouldn't love Hero so much...

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I have to say I disagree with Champions Complete. If someone paid points for defenses, they should get to use them. I'm not saying I'm going to allow someone with multiple DR, but to me the CC ruling is arbitrary and goes against what I just said about defenses. An example would be someone who has a 15 PD/15 ED and has a suit of powered armor that adds 20 PD/20ED - you just get to use the greater of the two - um, no.

 

For the write-up of the Dragon Mandarin, I'm going to go with 75% DR total, if he boosts his regular 50% DR.

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Ok I think because it's DR, it's confusing people. I read it as Dragon Mandarin has a total of 75% DR with the spell. I've read the posts of the rules however in this case I think that it is easier to buy it twice and have one with limitations than have a big one and have an awkward explanation of when it's 50% or 75%. I wouldn't use Aid. Do you Aid for Deadly Blow? Aid for+ X Armor, Blast, etc.? Usually no. I see the two DR as one with partial limitations is all.

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IDHMBIFOM, but if 50% Reduction costs 60 points and 75% Reduction costs 120 points, then 60 points + 60 points = 120 points.  So you only get 75% Reduction, even though you're adding two 50% together.

50% x 50% = 25%, and your model results in 25% of damage getting through, as well as fitting with the AP costs.

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I had noticed the two fifties added up in cost to a 75 (which kind of suited my off the cuff ruling) and was preparing to point that out in my first follow up post - until I saw the RAW from 6 and confirmed it with CC that flat out says "Nope. Pick one. /thread"

 

I still *might* allow applying serially (not additive) if it ever came up.

 

5 people giving you 50% will reduce a whopping 100 point hit to 50 - 25 - 12.5 - 6 .25 - 3.125 (3). That's 97% which seems pretty extreme ... but it cost 300 active points (resistant) at base (before adding the usable on others, etc you need to make it work).

 

Since one of the optional power guides actually has 100% resistant reduction priced at 120 (double the 75% level) spending 300-400 to make Bob indestructible seems over-engineered if anything:  There were better ways to do it cheaper.

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Well stacking is always dangerous for a campaign, its not just Damage Reduction.  I mean, if a character has an 8d6 armor piercing blast and three people aid them with "just" 4d6 armor piercing, now they're going to blow a hole through the moon.  GMs just need to keep an eye on that stuff.

 

However, Aid has a maximum effect, and these don't stack (at least per 6E1:136 -- I don't see it explicitly stated in CC):

 

 

 

Even if two different characters use separate versions of one of these Powers on the same character’s Characteristic or Power ... the maximum number of points they can add to that character equals the largest maximum for any of the Powers used.
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I have to say I disagree with Champions Complete. If someone paid points for defenses, they should get to use them. I'm not saying I'm going to allow someone with multiple DR, but to me the CC ruling is arbitrary and goes against what I just said about defenses. An example would be someone who has a 15 PD/15 ED and has a suit of powered armor that adds 20 PD/20ED - you just get to use the greater of the two - um, no.

 

For the write-up of the Dragon Mandarin, I'm going to go with 75% DR total, if he boosts his regular 50% DR.

 

Personally, I'd be cool with that if he had 50% DR, and an additional 50% DR, giving him 75% DR, since the cost for both combined would equal the cost of 75% DR.

 

However, going back to your first post:

 

 

 

Let's assume a character has, oh say, Damage Reduction 1/2 vs rPD and rED. For whatever reason, there is a temporary bonus to the DR, such as 1/4 vs rPD/rED. Would you make that 3/4 DR then?

 

In that case (50% DR + 25% DR), I would NOT make that 75% DR.  Otherwise, why pay 60 points for 75% DR when you can get the same thing by buying 50% (at 30 points) + 25% (at 15 points), final cost 45 points.

 

The problem I would have with multiple, serial use of DR is that it opens up to abuse, especially with Usable On Others.  Expanding upon DasBroot's example, let's say you have a team of 5 supers and they each have the following:

 

25% rPD / 25% rED Damage Reduction, Usable on Others (up to 4, only to others, grant within Limited Range, can go anywhere; +1/2).  45 AP. 

 

Now, one of the team is hit with an attack doing 40 points of damage past his defenses.  He takes 40* 0.75 = 30 * 0.75 = 22.5, rounds to 22 * 0.75 = 16.5, rounds to 16 * 0.75 = 12.  So for significantly less than the cost of 50% DR, you're reducing damage by 70%.

 

Make it a 6-man team (with UbO up to 8 others becoming +3/4, costing 52 AP) and you're reducing damage by 77.5%. 

 

Heck, slap those suckers on a team of VIPER agents, and the heroes' attacks are practically bouncing off 'em like spitballs!

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However, Aid has a maximum effect, and these don't stack

 

 

Sure, but UBO has no max effect.  In the end, its up to the GM to be careful about how things interact in their game and to use common sense.  Having OCV 6 plus 3 levels in hand-to-hand combat, plus 3 levels with a sword, and then martial arts on top of that can get your OCV up to 14 or higher.  Then there's the sorcerer who can Aid your OCV...  Its how they add up that matters, even if each individual thing is sensible.  That's the final layer of protection on the rules: GM common sense.

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The problem I would have with multiple, serial use of DR is that it opens up to abuse, especially with Usable On Others.  Expanding upon DasBroot's example, let's say you have a team of 5 supers and they each have the following:

 

25% rPD / 25% rED Damage Reduction, Usable on Others (up to 4, only to others, grant within Limited Range, can go anywhere; +1/2).  45 AP.

You could buy +10rPD/+10rED Usable on Others (up to 4, only to others, grant within Limited Range, can go anywhere; +1/2) for the same 45 AP.

 

That would wipe out

 

an attack doing 40 points of damage past his defenses

reducing damage by 100% instead of

 

 

reducing damage by 70%.

How many attacks slip 40 points past defenses? It has to be 58 past defenses before the Damage Reduction outpowers the defenses. Your problem is not damage reduction, or allowing damage reduction to synergise - it is abuse of UbO.

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Your problem is not damage reduction, or allowing damage reduction to synergise - it is abuse of UbO.

 

True.  And completely valid point about the Resistant Protection instead of Damage Reduction. 

 

I allowed one of the PCs in my Champions game to have 6 rPD / 6 rED, Hardened, Impenetrable, UbO (up to 8) -- pitched that he could use it to protect innocents.  In practice, it's used almost exclusively to supplement his teammates' defenses before they go into combat.  The other players are so dependent on it that, on a week where he wasn't able to play so his character wasn't around, one of the PCs almost got killed by a villain's attack.  (Granted, I rolled incredibly high on an RKA.)

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Ok I think because it's DR, it's confusing people. I read it as Dragon Mandarin has a total of 75% DR with the spell. I've read the posts of the rules however in this case I think that it is easier to buy it twice and have one with limitations than have a big one and have an awkward explanation of when it's 50% or 75%. I wouldn't use Aid. Do you Aid for Deadly Blow? Aid for+ X Armor, Blast, etc.? Usually no. I see the two DR as one with partial limitations is all.

 

Okay, so if the desired end result is that he wants to boost his existing spell from 50% to 75% it is going to either be Aid (Damage Reduction) or a new purchase of 75% resistant DR as far as I can see. He needs 30 points each to raise his permanent DR spell to the 75% threshold using Aid. Given that it's a magic power pool, this is one situation where there IS a point to buying it a second time, at the higher level, because it's not permanent.

 

You can get away with that sort of thing as a GM for a Mega-villain (or even introduce a plot point that just gives the effect to him by fiat: "Hahahaha! Now that the fifth seal is unlocked, your puny attacks are like the ticking of ants!"), but I'd be pretty strict with a player that wanted to do this, and stick to RAW. DR is powerful stuff.

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He has 50% rPD and 50% rED  as a standard power and a big VPP for spells. But just because you can use a VPP to build a power doesn't make it usable. There's nothing in his example spells in Villains I that has DR that I could find.

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He has 50% rPD and 50% rED as a standard power and a big VPP for spells. But just because you can use a VPP to build a power doesn't make it usable. There's nothing in his example spells in Villains I that has DR that I could find.

Ok then, as built he doesn't have a special spell which adds to his DR. It's just possible with his VPP then. If I ran him, I would make him buy 75 % DR and then just subtract the points he already spent for his 50 % DR.

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