g3taso Posted July 16, 2017 Report Share Posted July 16, 2017 It occurred to me that Negative Combat Skill Levels could be a great defensive power. I have two basic versions I'm exploring. Don't Hit Me: Negative Combat Skill Levels (-2 to opponent's OCV), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Explosion (+1/2), Selective Target (+1/4), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (32 Active Points) Don't Hit Me: Negative Combat Skill Levels (-1 to opponent's OCV), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Explosion (+1/2), Selective Target (+1/4), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1), Autofire (3 shots; +1/4), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (22 Active Points) Someone tries to hit the character, and an explosion centered on that character inflicts NCSLs on him. He tries to hit again, and gets the effect stacking. Thought I'd throw this out there for discussion, for comparison. Do these work mechanically? Any weaknesses or limitations I should be aware of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 16, 2017 Report Share Posted July 16, 2017 Where are you taking baseline rules for "negative combat skill levels"? The term does not come up on a 6e wordsearch. As with most such abilities, I would be asking about the SFX of this odd mechanic, and why the build should not be based on a Change Environment or Drain mechanic rather than what I suspect is an out there optional rule being taken out of context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g3taso Posted July 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2017 It's 5e. Sorry I didn't say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted July 16, 2017 Report Share Posted July 16, 2017 Penalty levels don't really work that way, they're about negating penalties on yourself, not reducing bonuses on others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted July 16, 2017 Report Share Posted July 16, 2017 Where are you taking baseline rules for "negative combat skill levels"? The term does not come up on a 6e wordsearch. As with most such abilities, I would be asking about the SFX of this odd mechanic, and why the build should not be based on a Change Environment or Drain mechanic rather than what I suspect is an out there optional rule being taken out of context. Penalty levels don't really work that way, they're about negating penalties on yourself, not reducing bonuses on others. From 5er pages 54-55: Negative Combat Skill Levels:Certain powers or abilities, such as some curses in Fantasy games, involve making a character less capable in combat — in short, they apply negative CSLs to him. At the GM’s discretion, a character may impose a -1 on another character’s OCV or DCV for 5 Character Points. (The character must choose whether his NCSL power reduces OCV or DCV when he buys it, and and cannot change this thereafter.) This reduction in CV applies for all purposes, not just for a single attack or versus the character who imposes the NCSL. This “Power” is No Range, Constant, and costs END; using it to affect the target requires an Attack Roll. Each point of Power Defense the target has negates one NCSL. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted July 16, 2017 Report Share Posted July 16, 2017 however the penalties to hit due to Shrinking are Negative OCV for others to hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted July 16, 2017 Report Share Posted July 16, 2017 double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted July 16, 2017 Report Share Posted July 16, 2017 I think NCSL's were an afterthought idea was sort of Talent-like in the shorthand of the build. I prefer a Drain or Change Environment approach if affecting others and adding additional Modifiers is the ultimate goal of the skill. Of course the Teamwork Skill as it current stands has a similar but much more limited effect with Coordinated Attacks. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christougher Posted July 16, 2017 Report Share Posted July 16, 2017 The biggest problem with this "power", is that as soon as someone gets in range, they can't hit ANYBODY, not just you. If you just want them to miss you, chuck all this and buy some DCV levels. Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 Thought I'd throw this out there for discussion, for comparison. Do these work mechanically? Any weaknesses or limitations I should be aware of? Just the big Red Flashing STOP Sign and utter requirement for GM approval. You also don't really need Personal Immunity AND Selective Target unless you're expecting Missile Reflection, and it's hard to see this being particularly reflectable unless you're delivering the effect using bullets. What special effect are you thinking of to justify this, anyway? 32 points would buy +4 combat skill levels in 5e (I think), or +6 HTH ones, which as Christougher points out will have the same effect as a personal defense. But I do get that there's a difference between making yourself harder to hit and reducing a target's ability to hit others... this would extend to them attacking any target, even ones outside the area of effect. Edit: Further thoughts... 4e didn't really have anything directly equivalent, but since 6e makes OCV and DCV normal characteristics, you could get the desired effect with Drains and Suppresses, unless I'm missing something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 I was surprised not to find them as I must recall them from 5e. Under a 5e model, I would still wonder why the NCSL build is more appropriate than a CE or Drain-based build, but drain would be tougher to use in 5e. As highlighted above, even a small amount of Power Defense nullifies the build. Note that a Selective AoE attack still has to roll to hit each target selected, so it's not an automatic hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrealone Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 Under a 5e model, I would still wonder why the NCSL build is more appropriate than a CE or Drain-based build, but drain would be tougher to use in 5e. As highlighted above, even a small amount of Power Defense nullifies the build. I'm with mrinku on this one -- i.e. it's probably because you can't just Drain DCV or OCV in 5e. There is, however, Transform for use in such scenarios, but it's comparatively expensive and ugly... because you shouldn't have to overcome the full BODY of someone to levy a curse that makes him/her hamfisted ... since you're just affecting the hands (and what they can do) ... and not the whole body. Note: Draining DEX -might- suffice for the hamfisted example in 5e, since DCV is impacted ... but if the goal is to make someone clumsy while handling a weapon with his/her hands, but to leave his/her balance, speed, leg use, etc. intact ... a 5e DEX drain won't do it without the appropriate limitations on it ... and then it gets complicated and spendy really quickly, too. Stuff like this hamfisted example is my best guess as to what someone had in mind when the Negative Skill Levels blurb was written for 5e. i.e. It's an easy way to do negative mods to someone without it being unduly complicated or bookworky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 The better fix is to decouple OCV, DCV and DEX - which 6e did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g3taso Posted July 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 So the idea is ok, it's just how I'm going about it. Here's an updated take on the basic idea. In this case the effect is centered on the character (who is immune). Change Environment 1" radius, -4 OCV, Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Selective Target (+1/2), Explosion (+1/2) (50 Active Points); No Range (-1/2) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 You don't need both Personal Immunity and Selective Target; you can already choose not to select yourself thanks to the latter. Also, your build should note the size of the Area, and how quickly the penalties fade off. My 5th is very rusty, but IIRC it looks like this power will only affect targets (you select) within ~8" (~16m). If you successfully hit them with the effect (you have to attack each target's DCV individually when they enter the area), you will penalize them regardless of who they choose to attack while affected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 So the idea is ok, it's just how I'm going about it. Here's an updated take on the basic idea. In this case the effect is centered on the character (who is immune). Change Environment 1" radius, -4 OCV, Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Selective Target (+1/2), Explosion (+1/2) (50 Active Points); No Range (-1/2) Change Environment isn't meant to have any significant effect on combat, which this does, so it shouldn't be allowed. You will also need to justify the power. Why does this happen? What is the special effect? It might be a magic spell, mutant hex power, psionic hypnosis or something else. The special effect will often suggest other options or modifiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g3taso Posted July 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 Hey folks, let me clarify or redirect my query from the other side: "I wish to have an effect that I can use to penalize an opponent's OCV (or DCV, etc). I am wanting to use with Trigger and Explosion advantages". Please brainstorm pros/cons and suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 Change Environment isn't meant to have any significant effect on combat, which this does, so it shouldn't be allowed. No you misunderstand. Change Environment is one of the "Catch-All Powers" and can have significant combat effects. What it cannot have are significant combat effects which replace existing powers or beneficial effects. So you can use Change Environment to impose enormous penalties to any given Success Roll (such as penalties to PER Rolls defined as shade), but you cannot use it to grant even the most minor bonuses (such as a bonus to PER Rolls defined as light), or simulate other powers (such as a Killing Attack or Drain/Suppress). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 He tries to hit again, and gets the effect stacking. This is the only part that plain old DCV levels won't give you for cheaper. But I believe you'd need to add Continuous and Uncontrolled to make the original setup work the way you want. As it is, it would only work for the one attack, and then it would reset. I'm still not really sure when the special effect of this power is, though. What is it supposed to look like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 Hey folks, let me clarify or redirect my query from the other side: "I wish to have an effect that I can use to penalize an opponent's OCV (or DCV, etc). I am wanting to use with Trigger and Explosion advantages". Please brainstorm pros/cons and suggestions. In order to penalize CVs I suggest Change Environment (-1 OCV/DCV are worth 5 APs each I believe). Since you want the effect to emanate beyond you, No Range and Area Of Effect are must haves. Since I assume you want it to emanate from you as you move you'll need GM's permission for the effect to follow you. In 6th edition at least Area of Effect Constant No Range Powers do not move once activated by default, they only follow the character at GM's Option. I believe you were also inclined towards making it a Selective Area Of Effect; so that it targets whomever is in the radius that you want to affect, but you have to make each roll separately. I don't like Explosion, or see any benefit to using it, I think it will just slow down the game and complicates the build. However if you are going to use it anyway, you need to define the total radius (as normal) as well as how quickly the effect loses potency. For example Area of Effect Explosion (16m Radius; Loses -1 OCV per 4m). I vaguely recall the rules were a little different for Explosions between 5th and 6th, but either way these are still things that should be noted. Since you want it to Trigger, you need to define what the Trigger Condition is ("Being Attacked" I assume). However, the trigger condition must be "easily verifiable". In other words an opponent has to be able to tell that the Trigger is set before he attacks you and sets off the power. Really though I'm not sure what the benefit of having trigger on the power is in the first place. It would be cheaper and arguably better to just making the power Zero END and Persistent, then simply only ever target people in the radius who might attack you. For that route I might suggest a Limited modifier to make the power only penalize Attacks directed at you or including your area, that way questionable allies are only penalized if they betray you. If you go with Trigger anyway, I would suggest making it Instant (instead of Costs END Only To Activate). There is no point in maintaining a Constant Power between Phases when it will activate itself automatically whenever you need it too. In fact I think it is more convenient since I don't think the Trigger can reset while the power is still active. In addition, I think the Trigger should include the Misfire quality, because the power could go off accidently when he is "attacked" by someone throwing a ball in his general direction, or a strong wind pushing him with its Strength CONS The obvious Con of such a power is that it only penalizes opponents who attack you from within the Area of Effect. Snipers will trigger the effect, but be unaffected by it, and other characters can simply back peddle until they leave the radius. The other obvious Con it that it still doesn't protect you against Area of Effect Attacks unless the attacker or someone else has already triggered the effect, and they are attacking from within the limited area of effect of the power. Just buying DCV (or even Usable Nearby DCV) with a similar special effect would likely have been cheaper for you, and more effective (also much, much less hassle for the GM). PROS The obvious Pro, once activated, you aren't just effectively increasing your own DCV, but that of your allies, and even the Area itself (which is normally impossible). Someone tries to hit the character, and an explosion centered on that character inflicts NCSLs on him. He tries to hit again, and gets the effect stacking. Thought I'd throw this out there for discussion, for comparison. Do these work mechanically? Any weaknesses or limitations I should be aware of? Stacking is gonna be a problem. I'm pretty sure that multiple instances of penalties from the same Change Environment don't stack (but I could very well be wrong). At the very least I wouldn't allow you to maintain an effectively infinite number of overlapping, stacking, Zero END To Maintain Area of Effect Selective Explosion Change Environments that only grew in number the more times you were attacked, until you became impossible to hit until the next time you slept. I think Drain would be more appropriate for a triggered cumulative short term effect that penalizes OCV of selected targets in an Area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrealone Posted July 18, 2017 Report Share Posted July 18, 2017 The better fix is to decouple OCV, DCV and DEX - which 6e did. That's no fix at all for those still playing 5e or 5er. In order to penalize CVs I suggest Change Environment (-1 OCV/DCV are worth 5 APs each I believe). Oh no, not another Change Environment (read: golden hammer -- where everything looks like a nail) approach! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted July 18, 2017 Report Share Posted July 18, 2017 Oh no, not another Change Environment (read: golden hammer -- where everything looks like a nail) approach! Heaven Forbid we use a Catch-All Power for its intended purpose. If you don't like solutions in the form of a Hammer, don't present problems in the form of a Nail. Also note that I also suggested using Drain instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g3taso Posted July 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2017 This is the only part that plain old DCV levels won't give you for cheaper. But I believe you'd need to add Continuous and Uncontrolled to make the original setup work the way you want. As it is, it would only work for the one attack, and then it would reset. I'm still not really sure when the special effect of this power is, though. What is it supposed to look like? Force lightning erupting from a wound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrealone Posted July 18, 2017 Report Share Posted July 18, 2017 If you don't like solutions in the form of a Hammer, don't present problems in the form of a Nail. I didn't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted July 18, 2017 Report Share Posted July 18, 2017 Okay, so when the character is attacked, arcs of lightning erupt from the wound, striking anyone within range that the character designates (and can successfully hit)... and making them magically less accurate while they remain within range? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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