How visible is rDEF? (Forcefield)

[Manic Typist]

Specifically, how visible do you think it should be when:

1) It's not in active use (not blocking an attack)

2) It's SFX is a OIF magical item worn on the PC's person as opposed to obvious body armor?

 

rDEF is Persistent, which IIRC correctly means it doesn't use END and since it doesn't use END it doesn't have to be visible (but the effect obviously is visible when the power is in use unless bought Inobvious).

 

So, does this create a minor, fringe advantage to the PC who pays points for his rDEF over the PC who paid Resource Points/nothing for body armor? I'm tentatively ok with that but like to see what others have experienced.

 

Or did I get it wrong? Pretty sure powers that don't cost END have a less visible/Obvious component to them.

[Greywind]

Generally, if someone gets hit with a killing attack, and they know it's a killing attack, they're going to be pissed and looking for who did it regardless of whether or not it hurt.

[Cantriped]

Resistant Protection, Damage Negation, and Damage Reduction are all listed as Inobvious by default; which means that an opponent can only tell that the power is Active (or that they even have such a power) by making a PER Roll (usually Sight or Hearing-based). I do not think you can normally make a PER Roll to ascertain the existance of a given power if it isn't Active (barring some kind of Discriminitory Detect that targeted Spells, Mutations, Technology etc.).

 

Buying the power through an Obvious (or Inobvious) Focus doesn't actually change the Percievability of the power itself. That quality merely defines how easy it is to ascertain whether or not the power comes from the Foci instead of the Character once you've realized they have the power.

 

In that regard, technically speaking a suit of plate armor defined as OIF Resistant Protection should also be taking Obvious To Sight And Hearing (-1/2) unless it is somehow light enough to wear clothes over it easily and doesn't clank when you walk. But the Perceivability Rules get ignored fairly consistently by most authors of pregenerated equipment it seems.

[mrinku]

It's OIF, so has to have an obvious effect, but I'd be good with one that only appears when it actually blocks damage.

[Manic Typist]

Greywind - I'm talking about it from the perspective of the attacker.

 

So, my read on it is that if someone shoots a musket or a crossbow at this PC with a magical ring that grants 8rDEF, they will see the bullet/bolt impact/shatter/bounce off the person who looks like they are wearing nothing but regular light clothing. That is odd and so they will basically not even need a roll to know something's way off - unless they are at medium or longer range and could perhaps doubt that they hit the target. Close range, they MIGHT believe they missed, but mulitple shots will quickly clue them in. So I hadn't thought of that, but thank you.

 

What my read of O in OIF in this case means, and I think will be critical for observant attackers, is that every time this power because Active, while they might not see the forcefield itself or even see the bullet shatter against the PC's skin... they will see the magic ring glow. So the focus is what's going to really give away the power, because if it were Inobvious it would require something like Deduction or several rolls to figure out.

 

So it's a slightly different understanding from Cantriped - it's Obvious that a power is in use and that's is related to the Focus, but not that what kind of power is in use or if that power has anything to do with what the NPC is observing.

 

Seem fair? Anyone spot a huge flaw in reasoning?

[mrinku]

Nope, that sounds fine to me. 

 

The One Ring is IIF (though Sauron and the Ring Wraiths have an ability to specifically detect it). Green Lantern's ring is (very) OIF. Although it doesn't usually glow when Hal Jordan is in his Secret ID, so even there special effects are story driven rather than absolute. Or you could argue that it still only glows in use, since his costume is a ring construct.

 

Enhanced senses might be able to spot it, even when not in use. Targeting level or better Sense Magic, perhaps. Or Detect Magic Artifact.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Perceivability Rules get ignored fairly consistently by most authors of pregenerated equipment it seems.

 

 

I don't bother building most gear like that but yeah, it should have increased perceptibility and some penalties to skills in the cost (good luck with concealment or stealth, even shadowing).

[Manic Typist]

I usually lump stuff like that under the Real Equipment Limitation.

[Beast]

resistant protection is inobvious
for me this means you would not know till you could observe bullets bouncing off,etc

per genre most force fields are visible when in use and may require end being spent(just a general not all encompassing ,I know I have defined a def as force field but did not take visible and cost end)

[mrinku]

We are talking focuses here, which have their own visibility rules. Obvious foci HAVE to telegraph they are the source of an effect, at least while in use. But as discussed earlier there's a lot of leeway with what that actually means. By default it should be *pretty* obvious what's going on.

 

Since a ring normally doesn't do anything special, an OIF one needs to do something unusual, like shoot out green rays that form a shield, or project a glowing aura that's brighter around the ring. Otherwise it will be IIF.

 

A ring that just makes the owner glow all over when the protection is active is going to be IIF.

[Cantriped]

On 7/23/2017 at 5:32 PM, mrinku said:

It's OIF, so has to have an obvious effect, but I'd be good with one that only appears when it actually blocks damage.

 

I don't think it is correct to treat Foci Perceivability and Power Perceivability as equivalent game elements, nor can I recall any current rules which state that the two elements have any direct impact on one another. A suit of armor defined as OIF Resistant Protection is still Inobvious (usually to Sight and Hearing) by default; it doesn't become Obvious (a -1/2 limitation by itself) as a result of taking OIF (-1/2). You have to make a PER Roll to determine that the character wearing the armor is gaining the benefits of Resistant Protection... however, because the Foci itself is Obvious, once you've perceived the power itself, no roll is required to deduce that the suit of armor is providing that power (instead of the character's natural toughness or something).

 

In the case of the Green Lantern (and similar characters), nearly all of his powers should have been bought Obvious (in terms of Power Perceivability), as well as requiring an OIF; because the effects of his powers are always really Obvious. Even his resistant protection, given that it creates that foxfire glow around him which is the universal visual sign for 'don't fudge with me'.

[mrinku]

I don't think it is correct to treat Foci Perceivability and Power Perceivability as equivalent game elements, nor can I recall any current rules which state that the two elements have any direct impact on one another. A suit of armor defined as OIF Resistant Protection is still Inobvious (usually to Sight and Hearing) by default; it doesn't become Obvious (a -1/2 limitation by itself) as a result of taking OIF (-1/2). You have to make a PER Roll to determine that the character wearing the armor is gaining the benefits of Resistant Protection... however, because the Foci itself is Obvious, once you've perceived the power itself, no roll is required to deduce that the suit of armor is providing that power (instead of the character's natural toughness or something).

 

 

I'm not sure an OIF  suit of armour is your best example here, though I get what you're saying. Someone wearing gear that appears to provide substantial protection is indeed telegraphing Resistant Projection. You'd need gear that doesn't look like it protects (IIF) to do otherwise. (Of course that armour may well be made of plastic and not *actually* provide protection.) 

 

Superman has standard, Inobvious Resistant Protetction. Iron Man has his bought as an OIF suit. The Thing has changed his to Obvious (rocky hide).

 

But yeah, power perceivability does mesh with that of foci, and you're right to pick me up on that - if the Resistant Protection is left as Inobvious, the OIF ring should glow to show something is happening before the protection is used, but for a forcefield effect the power itself should be changed to Obvious too.

 

On the other hand, the focus limitation rules quite clearly state that to qualify as Obvious it needs to be clear that the power is provided by the focus. There really has to be something that telegraphs that that ring is providing the power to "any observer", or it's IIF. In this case it would be enough that this happens when blows are stopped. How that is done will depend on the designer's choice of special effect:

 

Ring of Warding Flame: On activation the ring smoulders with an eerie red glow. Flames leap from the artifact to block incoming attacks.

 

Ring of the Guardian: On activation a low wailing emanates from the ring. Ghostly hands project from it to block weapons daring to strike the owner.

 

Ring of Emerald Power: On activation the ring glows with a green light. A green barrier appears (centred on the ring) against attackers.

[Manic Typist]

Shouldn't it be that the ring is Obviously a Focus for a Power, but since rDEF is an Inobvious Power it takes effort on the part of the observer to recognize what Power is activating when the ring is being Obvious? That's what I'm thinking, although originally I was assuming the Ring of Emeral Power example before I read that rDEF is Inobvious.

[mrinku]

Inobvious really only means it requires a PER roll to work out. It's NOT Imperceptable unless you spring for Invisible Power Effects.

 

But you do need to distinguish between an IIF ring and an OIF ring regardless of the perceptibility of the power itself. An IIF ring Power may still have some special effect that clues in the observer that the target has resistant defences, but would not in itself appear to be the source ("My sword bounced!?! What the..." "Make a perception roll. The old man's skin appears to have a slightly metallic sheen to it." "Oh, crap - magic!").

 

An OIF one with the same special effect should be apparent as the source, that's why it's cheaper, after all ("My sword bounced!?! Damn that glowy ring! It's some kind of Ward!")

 

And special senses can be outside normal OIF and IIF rules anyway, since those are for normal observers ("Stupid barbarian. My Mage Gaze spotted that silly trinket as soon as he appeared. Cut the left hand off.")

[Manic Typist]

Sure, special cases (special senses) are different from baseline.

 

But now I am back to puzzling over the manifestation...

 

So to use your example, it would be PER roll to notice the metallic sheen, and then there is also an obviously glowy ring which is the source. What about if they fail the PER roll? Don't notice the ring?

[Tom Cowan]

I think it is.on miss per roll

Glowing ring? What does it do? Oh well I will loot it later. Swing sword. Hmm, that was a bad hit. Swing. I know I should be doing more. Ah, the ring is doing some thing.  What type of ward is it?

[dsatow]

OK, I asked Steve about this a long time ago and I'll basically paraphrase his answer.  I asked if something like Combat Luck which is defined as resistant has an inobvious effect.  Thus if Indiana Jones who has combat luck 9/9   and 6 PD is shot by Nazi soldiers with 1d6K lugers, do they continue to fire at him with only a 1/36 chance of doing stun?  His answer is, while the Combat Luck would show no obvious defense (like bouncing bullets and the like), the attacker would still know how much damage he should have done and would extrapolate accordingly.  Thus even if Indy is not hurt by the lugers, the solders will bring out their rifles or the machine gun and try to mow him down.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, been away working on my upcoming game.  

[mrinku]

Sure, special cases (special senses) are different from baseline.

 

But now I am back to puzzling over the manifestation...

 

So to use your example, it would be PER roll to notice the metallic sheen, and then there is also an obviously glowy ring which is the source. What about if they fail the PER roll? Don't notice the ring?

 

No, an Obvious focus doesn't need a PER roll. They'd just see a glowy ring but not know what effect (if any) it was producing. 

 

Edit: ...until their sword bounced. Then they'd probably guess right  (but not if the ring actually DID provide some other effect and the IIF necklace was the real source of the protection!)

[Vanguard]

Removed due to being a redundant reply.