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Two weapon fighting using naked advantage trigger.


jdounis

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Hello everybody,

 

Due to popular demand in my Epic Fantasy campaign i had to find a better way to simulate two weapon fighting other than Multiple attack due to its restrictions,

so i made this build:

 

Light weapon offhand attack:  Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; After Attacking with HTH Weapon in main hand .; +3/4) for up to 15 Active Points of Any Offhand HTH weapon(11 Active Points).

 

I think it's a valid construction that also has the Off hand penalty of -3 for those without Ambidexterity.

 

I will make 2 versions of it for them to buy: 

 

Light weapon as above and Heavy weapon with 30 AP in the naked advantage.

 

What do you think?

And a question can i add a limitation such as Concentration to the above naked advantage, so when you use it you suffer the Limitation?

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Two-weapon fighting (at least as portrayed in modern media) is pretty much a video game invention.  Even Florentine style dueling didn't really go at it with both weapons at once, but its a thing now so people want it for their character.

 

This build looks like it would let people do what they want: hit with both weapons, so it probably accomplishes your goal.  Its cheap as dirt to buy off the off-hand penalty (3 points in 6th edition) and penalty levels to negate multiple attack penalties are pretty cheap too but this would work.

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Two-weapon fighting (at least as portrayed in modern media) is pretty much a video game invention.  Even Florentine style dueling didn't really go at it with both weapons at once, but its a thing now so people want it for their character.

 

This build looks like it would let people do what they want: hit with both weapons, so it probably accomplishes your goal.  Its cheap as dirt to buy off the off-hand penalty (3 points in 6th edition) and penalty levels to negate multiple attack penalties are pretty cheap too but this would work.

 

Thank you for your reply, Can i apply a Side Effect to a naked advantage, as a special power, that you suffer from it every time you use ? I would like to have an inherent -1 OCV(light)/-2 OCV(heavy)  to the above powers in addition to the Off hand penalties.

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It's a bit ahistorical (some historical Kung Fu weapon styles may have done it), but some modern martial arts have definitely gone in this direction. Miyamoto Musashi was also noted (and unusual) for actively using two swords.

 

My own experience is SCA heavy combat fighting (I profess very little personal skill, mind you) and "two stick" was (and probably still is) a popular form. Typically one weapon is used to block, but the trick is that you can't really be sure which one is going to be used to attack with. (This is directly akin to Boxing). It's a lot more effective to feint with one sword and strike with the second than to just keep hitting with both.

 

My gut feeling would be to build a co-ordinated two weapon attack into a Martial maneuver with a high OCV, neutral to small negative DCV and an extra DC. Or select some appropriate Martial maneuvers that already exist.

 

CSLs bought only for "two weapon style" could also work.

 

But having said all that, I don't have any problem with how the OP has built this especially for epic fantasy.

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Thank you for your reply, Can i apply a Side Effect to a naked advantage, as a special power, that you suffer from it every time you use ? I would like to have an inherent -1 OCV(light)/-2 OCV(heavy)  to the above powers in addition to the Off hand penalties.

 

Go for -DCV over -OCV. This isn't really a hard trick to learn, and more attacks are harder for the target to stop, but it leaves you wide open because you're giving up your parry defence.

 

HERO is a bit misleading because multiple attacks are -OCV... but they simulate hasty ones. Using both weapons in a practiced, co-ordinated manner is different.

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HERO is a bit misleading because multiple attacks are -OCV... but they simulate hasty ones. Using both weapons in a practiced, co-ordinated manner is different.

 

 

This is a really good point and my mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought, cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives, to quote the great Hedley LaMarr.  Having a low OCV, lowered DCV hasty 'flail and hope for the best' multiple attack is good but a trained multiple attack should severely drop DCV and have minor OCV penalties and lower damage slightly.  That is, its not so hard to hit a bunch of times but you won't hit as hard and you open yourself up to attack.

 

I'm reminded of Jeff Speakman who was amazing in combat but had zero charisma:

 

 

Incredibly fast hands.  No acting talent.

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What I'd like to make is a maneuver that you wouldn't want to use unless your opponent was either a really bad shot or stunned.  Something that opens you up to great danger, but when usable is really effective.  I want to see more of that in combat, and less 'another martial attack with slightly different mix of OCV and DCV.'

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What I'd like to make is a maneuver that you wouldn't want to use unless your opponent was either a really bad shot or stunned.  Something that opens you up to great danger, but when usable is really effective.  I want to see more of that in combat, and less 'another martial attack with slightly different mix of OCV and DCV.'

Like Haymaker?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a palindromedary in a graminidogenic trance

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I did dig out Ninja Hero (often imitated, never bettered!) and it pretty much just goes with +1DCV for learning an off-hand weapon element (and equipping with one) and the standard -3 for attacking with an off-hand weapon unless you buy Ambidexterity.

 

But you can build something like:

 

Double Dragon Strike: +1 OCV, -2 DCV, +2KDC (5 pts) with specific double armed style.

 

Another thought I had... the old reply to "I want to hit more often" is "buy more Speed". So maybe do exactly that - extra Speed limited to off-hand weapon use (-1 1/2 or more I'd suggest as it doesn't add extra movement or allow the main weapon on that phase). Would probably be a little tricky to run, but there are rules for changing speed mid-turn if the weapon is drawn or lost. Since this is meant to be some epic fantasy situation and not a generic rule it would be up to the GM to work out how to run it.

 

This would have the bonus of providing extra phases a character could block with (using the off hand weapon) which fits neatly with how I've seen twin swords used.

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Another more abstracted approach would be to borrow a page from ranged combat and buy a Naked Autofire Advantage.  I could see limiting the damage to the smaller of 2 weapons being used.  Here is a gun version of what I am talking about.  Note that the END costs of this or the Multiple Attack method start to get crazy if you are using the recommended 1 END per 5 Points of STR used rule for Heroic games.

 

From my version of John Wick (Keanu Reeves):

10 Quick Fire: Autofire (3 shots; Naked Advantage; +1/4) for up to 60 Active Points of Any Semi-Automatic Weapon of Opportunity (15 Active Points); OIF (Any Semi-Automatic Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2)
[Notes: Autofire imposes an additional +5 STR Minimum to any weapon used. This can be offset by using the Brace Maneuver. END cost is per each Autofire burst if combined with Multiple Attack, NOT per shot fired.] - END=1

 

And based on:

38     Bastard Sword:  (Total: 38 Active Cost, 13 Real Cost) HKA 1 1/2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (37 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 13 (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Required Hands One-And-A-Half-Handed (-1/4) (Real Cost: 12) plus Stretching (Medium Weapon) 1m, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2); OAF (-1), Always Direct (-1/4), Limited Body Parts (Blade; -1/4), no Noncombat Stretching (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) - END=0

 

I would build something like this:

 

10    Sword Flurry: Naked Advantage: Autofire (3 shots; +1/4) for up to 60 Active Points (15 Active Points); OIF (Any Sword Of Opportunity; -1/2)

[Notes: Autofire imposes an additional +5 STR Minimum to any weapon used. ] - END=1
 

:)

HM

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Some multiple strike things I've done for villains in Champions (mostly KAs):

 

Autofire HKA (the fist of the northstar technique - Yata!)

Trigger HKA (the miyamoto musashi quisanart fighting style - though I usually I set it to zero phase actions)

Reduce Penetration RKA (dual blazing pistols - PC though he was going to be hit with a 2d6 KA autofire, but instead got 6/6 Body and 36 Stun from a 4d6 KA)

AoE selective HKA constant requires an attack roll(another miyamoto musashi quisanart fighting style maneuver)

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One of my original players (3e) wanted a flying speedster, whose powers I largely based on Northstar from Alpha Flight. I borrowed "superspeed punches" from one time Northstar fought the Hulk (and managed to stagger him with hundreds of punches in a second or so) and built it as an autofire PEB, no range, penetrating (damage the same as his normal STR damage - 3d6 I think).

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No, no. Autofire works well. I certainly won't criticise that one at all.

 

Like many things there's a few good ways to build this. I think we've probably hit on most of them:

  • Naked advantage trigger attack
  • Naked advantage increased damage with reduced penetration
  • Extra Speed, only for secondary weapon attacks and/or blocks
  • CSLs with either Multiple Attack or a specific Two Weapon form (note: only needs 2pt CSLs and is probably the simplest option) 
  • Custom Martial maneuver
  • Naked advantage Autofire
  • Naked advantage AoE

Edit: struck out the illegal CSLs with Multiple Attack. Thanks for spotting that, H-M!

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IF the players get involved with the decision then they may have an aha moment when they realize that the rules allow combining the Multiple Attack rules (free optional maneuver) with the Naked Autofire build as long as they also purchase the Rapid Autofire Skill as well.  And if they are using different types of weapons (different OCV and/or damage) they can always choose which weapon to attack with 1st.  The fact that any miss means the sequence ends is a rule balance issue for a free optional maneuver.  The easiest way around it is more CSL's with the attack(s).

 

They can still run into situations where only 1 hit land it's just that with Autofire the # of hits determination is firmly buried in the mechanics of the to-hit roll.  In the case of MPA the number of attacks attempted has a direct and up-front affect on the to-hit roll before it is made.  Theoretically, the points spent on the Autofire (or Trigger) could just as easily and effectly be spent on CSL's instead.

 

HM

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The original 11pt Trigger attack version would buy +5 OCV towards Multiple Attack penalties and save a point :)

 

Or burn one more point and buy +3 Speed (Only for off-hand weapon use, -1 1/2) for 12pts...

 

Except there are very few HTH weapons built on 15 Active Points (even a Dagger needs to be built with 0 END, Strength Minimum to use is separate).

 

Also, Multiple Attack Penalties can not be countered by PSL's.  And CSL's cannot be bought directly for them either.  The CSL's have to be applicable to the attack/weapon being used.

 

HM

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Also, Multiple Attack Penalties can not be countered by PSL's.  And CSL's cannot be bought directly for them either.  The CSL's have to be applicable to the attack/weapon being used.

 

HM

 

Well, that works. "Broadsword and Dagger" is legal for a 2pt CSL, I think. You can only use that (and only for OCV because it's a 2 pointer) if equipped with that exact combination, not with Broadsword alone or Dagger alone. Which matches my experience of the matter - you need a lot of practice in the actual weapon combo to make any of this work. (Mind you, that applies to any weapon combo, including sword and shield).

 

In practice it's probably more likely a player would go with levels in the weapons themselves as that's more flexible. But then we get back to multiple attacks with the prime weapon (plus its skill levels) on its own being the same effect.

 

Thanks for picking me up on CSLs with Multiple Attack itself not being allowed. There it is, right at the end of the CC entry on the page overleaf :)

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Thank you all for your wondeful suggestions :)

 

As Hyper-man noted 15 AP are very few for an off-hand weapon and i will make the Light Offhand Attack with 25 AP to be able to use a short sword and below class of weapons.

 

As for the other options mentioned by mrinku, IMHO in the Fantasy Genre all expect two fall short of player expectations for some reason or another, players especially coming from D&D expect an offhand

attack to:

 

A)Use the offhand weapon's properties(i.e. special damage effect, armor piercing).

B)Be able to choose another target for the off hand attack.

C) The two attacks are independent of each other.

 

So in RAW the thing that's readily available and comes really close is only Multiple Attack, that only falls short on the C requirement, the extra SPD  mentioned by mrinku with the limitation

"only to strike with off hand weapon" is really good and probably the most realistic option but complicates the things for the GM in my opinion(having to calculate which phases are the result of

the increased SPD especially if there is Aid SPD, Drain SPD allowed).

 

 

I've come with this final form:

 

Light Off-hand Attack:  Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; After Attacking with HTH Weapon in Main Hand; +1) for up to 25 Active Points of HTH off hand weapon of Opportunity (25 Active Points); Open your defence(-2 DCV), Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-1) Cost : 12

 

 

Thank you again for your suggestions and constructive criticism   :)

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Except there are very few HTH weapons built on 15 Active Points (even a Dagger needs to be built with 0 END, Strength Minimum to use is separate).

 

Also, Multiple Attack Penalties can not be countered by PSL's.  And CSL's cannot be bought directly for them either.  The CSL's have to be applicable to the attack/weapon being used.

 

HM

 

They could always do less than the maximum.  Even if the power is bought as a 1d6K, than can just use and pay end for 10 active and 1/2d6.  Not that I have ever seen any player do this more than once or twice in 30 years of playing.

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They could always do less than the maximum.  Even if the power is bought as a 1d6K, than can just use and pay end for 10 active and 1/2d6.  Not that I have ever seen any player do this more than once or twice in 30 years of playing.

 

Technically that wouldn't work because all the HTH weapons in the published books are bought with 0 END and then a STR Minimum Limitation is applied. It is only the latter that causes the PC to spend END.  Characters can use less STR than the minimum and still use a weapon - they just suffer penalty to their OCV for doing so.  And the Active Points of the base weapon are still unchanged.

 

:)

HM

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Technically that wouldn't work because all the HTH weapons in the published books are bought with 0 END and then a STR Minimum Limitation is applied. It is only the latter that causes the PC to spend END.  Characters can use less STR than the minimum and still use a weapon - they just suffer penalty to their OCV for doing so.  And the Active Points of the base weapon are still unchanged.

 

:)

HM

Even so, they can still do less than the maximum.  If this is a heroic game, then it akin to trying not to strike someone full force with the knife and just make a small cut.

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