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Visibility of Aid-ed points


SteveZilla

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While the use of the Aid power is visible, is the effect of that power also visible?  If I Aid someone's power, is there any visible indicator that that character is under the beneficial effect of that Aid?

If the Aid-ed points themselves don't come with any visibility, what kind and value of a Limitation would it be to make them visible?

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Bloody good question!

 

Some special effects would make this obvious, others not. The example "Madder I Get the Stronger I Get" power in CC isn't bought with any visibility modifiers, but I guess you'd notice the effect indirectly. Certainly, once Big Girl starts frothing at the mouth and punching four times as hard you could work it out, especially if it's a known thing she does.

 

On the other hand, if Doctor Weird makes arcane gestures and purple light streams from his hands to surround The Square with an eerie glow, there's no normal way of telling that that was a DMCV Aid until The Square is actually attacked in Mental combat. Analyze Magic or Discriminatory Mental Sense might have a chance, of course.

 

So I'd look at what you're actually doing for this effect to happen and buy it accordingly. By default, the effect is visible at some level, so there'd be no need to pay more points. Invisible Power Effects can be used to hide the results of the power (With a warning sign. Invisible Blast damage may not be appropriate even if invisible Barriers are fine) but can't be bought on its own to do so. CC p.108

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Aid is a power and, thus, should be visible to three sense groups while in play, unless Invisible Power Effects is purchased.  My expectation would, thus, be that an aura affecting three sense groups (or some other appropriate indicator) is visible when the Aid power is being used ... until Aided points fade away ... unless IPE is purchased as an advantage for the power.

 

(A reasonable, non-adjustment power comparison might be Entangle ... which is an Instant power (like Aid) ... and also has a visible effect that remains after the Instant power has been used (like Aid).  If you want both to be invisible, you need to buy the Entangle with IPE.  Thus, I'd expect the same for Aid if you want its use and its lingering effect to be invisible.)

 

I'd expect Drain to be the same way -- meaning I'm of the opinion it should be obvious a Drained target is under -some- kind of effect ... unless the Drain was purchased with IPE.

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My gut reaction is "no".  By default, you wouldn't have a sparkly video game glowing effect around your character when an Aid was used on you.  Just like if someone hits you with a Drain defined as "poison darts", people can't tell by looking at you that you've been poisoned.

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The real problem with this kind of nitpicking character design is that it ends up requiring the use of Advantages that don't really add anything, just to simulate a given special effect.  It makes some powers more expensive without giving you any added benefit.  This has a worse effect on game balance than Figured Characteristics or Elemental Controls ever did.

 

Invisible Power Effects is an expensive Advantage, because it lets you turn into super-sniper and nobody knows where the attack came from, or even that there was an attack.  Suddenly Bob just falls over dead, and nobody knows what happened.  That's really powerful, and that's why it's worth a +1.  Indirect is also really powerful, because you can shoot through walls, around corners, have your attack come from other directions (even seeming to come from your target's buddy instead of you).  But if you aren't intending for your power to have these benefits or be used in this way, you're really ratcheting up the cost for no reason.  You are paying more just to pay more.

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Aid is a power and, thus, should be visible to three sense groups while in play, unless Invisible Power Effects is purchased.  My expectation would, thus, be that an aura affecting three sense groups (or some other appropriate indicator) is visible when the Aid power is being used ... until Aided points fade away ... unless IPE is purchased as an advantage for the power.

 

(A reasonable, non-adjustment power comparison might be Entangle ... which is an Instant power (like Aid) ... and also has a visible effect that remains after the Instant power has been used (like Aid).  If you want both to be invisible, you need to buy the Entangle with IPE.  Thus, I'd expect the same for Aid if you want its use and its lingering effect to be invisible.)

 

I'd expect Drain to be the same way -- meaning I'm of the opinion it should be obvious a Drained target is under -some- kind of effect ... unless the Drain was purchased with IPE.

Following this logic, Flash, Blast and KA have lasting effects of a sense failing, STUN and BOD damage. Should there always be a visible effect that someone cannot hear, or is down a portion of their STUN and BOD? Maybe health bars across all the characters?

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My gut reaction is "no".  By default, you wouldn't have a sparkly video game glowing effect around your character when an Aid was used on you.  Just like if someone hits you with a Drain defined as "poison darts", people can't tell by looking at you that you've been poisoned.

Why wouldn't you?

 

Reminder: IPE can be bought for just the effects of a power.  There's a reason for that.  i.e. Rather than full IPE you buy it for the Aid's effects only ... such that there's a sparkly effect when Aid is used ... but no sparkly for the effect on the target.  Same idea for Drain ... if you want the poison's effects from the poison darts not to have the sparkly, buy IPE for only the Drain's effects.

 

 

 

Following this logic, Flash, Blast and KA have lasting effects of a sense failing, STUN and BOD damage. Should there always be a visible effect that someone cannot hear, or is down a portion of their STUN and BOD?

 

Unless bought with IPE for the effects, I agree with the above.  And using your example, someone being down a portion of their STUN and BOD --is- visible unless bought with IPE for the effects, right? :)

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Why wouldn't you?

 

Reminder: IPE can be bought for just the effects of a power.  There's a reason for that.  i.e. Rather than full IPE you buy it for the Aid's effects only ... such that there's a sparkly effect when Aid is used ... but no sparkly for the effect on the target.  Same idea for Drain ... if you want the poison's effects from the poison darts not to have the sparkly, buy IPE for only the Drain's effects.

 

 

 

 

Unless bought with IPE for the effects, I agree with the above.  And using your example, someone being down a portion of their STUN and BOD --is- visible unless bought with IPE for the effects, right? :)

 

I don't think it serves a purpose.  You're just requiring extra points spent in order to select a certain special effect.

 

Now, you can certainly see some effects of an Aid, depending on the actions of a character.  Bob the normal guy gets hit with a 12D6 Str Aid, bumping him from 10 Str to 55 Str.  When he punches somebody, it's going to be clear that he is stronger than he was before.  But I don't see any need for a sparkly.  It steers the game much more towards an online rpg feel, and to me that's a big negative.  Requiring a player to spend points just so that his power fits within the "look" of a fairly normal genre doesn't work for me.

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Here's what the rules say.

 

6E1 p125: From "What's perceived"

 

However, unless the GM rules otherwise, a character who can perceive a Power can determine the following about it: [...] 

  • the Target Effect: the effect of the Power on the target (e.g., it’s injuring him, it’s supposed to injure him but isn’t having much effect, it’s turning him into a frog, it’s weakening him...)

 

6E1 p126 from "Obviousness"

 

Adjustment Powers: Adjustment Powers are Obvious.

 

6E1 p388 from "Invisible power effects"

 

Applying Invisible Power Effects to a Power conceals the Activity, Source, Path, Target, Special Effects, and Intensity of a Power (see 6E1 125). It does not conceal the Target Effect or the Source Effect (if any).

 

The combination of these rules means that if you perceive an Aid power in use, you're always going to know it's aiding/boosting the target in some way, even if someone paid for Invisible power effects. I don't think Target effects have their own special effects by default. You could argue that making target effects perceivable is a limitation or an advantage though. For example, a blast that leaves a glowing aura around its target might be advantageous in some cases or limiting in others.

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Following this logic, Flash, Blast and KA have lasting effects of a sense failing, STUN and BOD damage. Should there always be a visible effect that someone cannot hear, or is down a portion of their STUN and BOD? Maybe health bars across all the characters?

 

Beaten, bloody, wobbly; I'd say there's a visible effect.

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I don't think it serves a purpose.  You're just requiring extra points spent in order to select a certain special effect.

Actually, it's RAW, as Durzan has kindly pointed out.  i.e. No one is requiring anything extra; it's just the way it's supposed to be done unless the GM rules otherwise a la the usual GM fiat exception that's all over the 5e and 6e rules.

 

i.e. If you wanted a Drain delivered via a poison on a dart, that poison should​ be purchased with IPE on the poison's effect, otherwise it'll be visible.  This is the difference, really, between a poison that acts on the nervous system steadily until you just fall over (DEX Drain?) -- without you feeling or knowing or perceiving it ... versus one that makes your skin turn pink (i.e. others can perceive it) and causes you to feel like your skin is on fire from the inside (also a DEX Drain?).

 

Obviously, it -IS- advantageous for the target and others to be unable to perceive the effects of the Drain ... so it -should- cost points.  Why?  Well, in the former example, the target of the Drain would just go about his/her business ... whereas in the latter, s/he (and potentially his/her allies) would likely stop and try to address the cause of the pink, tingly skin the felt like it was on fire.  i.e. It's more than just special effect we're talking about -- it's reaction or the ability to react to the power's effect that we're also talking about.

 

Aid is in the same boat: If you can see that someone's all sparkly, then you potentially know they have an Aid or other power at play ... and may be less prone to messing with them than if you didn't see it.  Again, reaction or the ability to react to the presence/effect of the power ... is the important piece ... and it's more than just special effect.

 

Thus, if you want to deny the target and/or others the ability to notice and react to the effects of the power (which is a points-worthy advantage) ... use the IPE advantage for the power's effects.

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While the use of the Aid power is visible, is the effect of that power also visible? 

 

 

Depending on the special effect, I would tend to rule that aided powers have the same perceptibility as the power that was aided.  That is, if you buy your blast imperceptible to sound, then when its aided, it too is imperceptible to sound.  Picky GMs could adjust the amount aided (so its less of a bonus because of the +½ advantage) but I wouldn't bother unless it more than doubles the effect.

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I'd argue that a non-IPE poison dart would be visible. There's a dart sticking out of them that can be seen or touched, and probably a distictive smell. It would likely have an audible component when fired, too (certainly a gun firing tranquilizer darts does). 

 

And the target would certainly feel where the dart was.

 

But if you pay for IPE you can have one that fully enters the body and uses Iocaine powder, I guess.

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Depending on the special effect, I would tend to rule that aided powers have the same perceptibility as the power that was aided.  That is, if you buy your blast imperceptible to sound, then when its aided, it too is imperceptible to sound.  Picky GMs could adjust the amount aided (so its less of a bonus because of the +½ advantage) but I wouldn't bother unless it more than doubles the effect.

Exactly.  The Aid power itself is visible by default, but the power that is Aided is what it is.  If my Aid makes you stronger, people can see your muscles getting bigger.  If my Aid makes you smarter, they can't see your neurons firing faster.

 

-----

 

Somewhat off-topic:

 

I've always allowed an Aid to add Advantages, if purchased specifically to do so.  So an Aid might specifically cause a Visible power to become Invisible.  But of course, only if the Aid is specifically bought to make its target power(s) Invisible - which, AFAIR, no one has ever tried to do in any game I've ever seen.

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This sort of thing has been a bit of a bugbear with Invisible Power Effects all along. 3e was fairly loose on the matter of visibility and 4e tried to nail it down with rigid rules, which just caused different problems. At the end of the day I guess it comes down to "are you getting what you paid for"?

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Yeah I think the visibility rules are a level of complexity that doesn't really add much to the game.  Probably it should go into special effects, and then have a set cost to make power imperceptible, say +¼ for powers that aren't directly about combat and +½ for powers that are.  I mean, is invisible power effects worth more than that?  Is it worth the game to go into that level of complexity and detail on perceptibility such that even people who've played this since 2nd edition aren't really clear on it and tend not to use the advantages? 

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Yeah I think the visibility rules are a level of complexity that doesn't really add much to the game.  Probably it should go into special effects, and then have a set cost to make power imperceptible, say +¼ for powers that aren't directly about combat and +½ for powers that are.  I mean, is invisible power effects worth more than that?  Is it worth the game to go into that level of complexity and detail on perceptibility such that even people who've played this since 2nd edition aren't really clear on it and tend not to use the advantages? 

I feel that the visibility rules were fine (in terms of complexity) in 4e, but like everything else, became bloated and overly complex in 5e and beyond. That said, the added complexity allows you to build/model things with 5e and beyond that were just tough/unclear in 4e.  The poison from a poison dart being invisible to the target and onlookers ... versus it having visible effects that might cause onlookers and/or the target to react... is an example of one such thing.

 

What I sense in this thread is:

  1. some people don't want that level of complexity;
  2. some people just handwave away the cost of an advantageous effect (i.e. an invisible effect on adjustment powers) -- without charging more for it when they should (since, you know, it is actually advantageous); and
  3. only a few people seem to know and use the visibility rules per actual RAW.

To use one example from above, an Aid to someone's Blast being automatically invisible ... for free ... seems wrong to me.  Why?  Well, shouldn't people have the opportunity to perceive that the Blast is now stronger ... unless points were paid to keep them from knowing it?  After all, a stronger blast that people don't know about ... is an edge/advantage, right?  (Especially after hitting them with a non-Aided version and having them shrug it off, for example.)

 

What I'm driving at is that I don't think special effects should play into the visibility of the Aided points, at all.  Instead, I think that whether someone's course of action could be influenced by the perception of a Power or Characteristic (collectively 'Ability') being stronger ... should be what determines whether IPE should be required for the Aid's effect.

 

Examples:

  • Aid to STR could cause someone not to fight with the recipient of the Aid -- so IPE should be required on the Aid's effect on STR if you don't want it noticed a la bigger muscles, more sweat running from the armpits, etc. in the Aid's recpient
  • Aid to Blast could cause someone who has been ignoring a Blast that didn't hurt him/her to suddenly pay attention, again, to the person who is tossing the Blasts ... so IPE should be required on the Aid's effect on the Blast if you don't want the improvement noted (i.e. if you want the target to keep thinking it's the same old Blast s/he's been repeatedly hit with)
  • Etc. (You get the idea...)
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I feel that the visibility rules were fine (in terms of complexity) in 4e, but like everything else, became bloated and overly complex in 5e and beyond. That said, the added complexity allows you to build/model things with 5e and beyond that were just tough/unclear in 4e.  The poison from a poison dart being invisible to the target and onlookers ... versus it having visible effects that might cause onlookers and/or the target to react... is an example of one such thing.

 

What I sense in this thread is:

  1. some people don't want that level of complexity;
  2. some people just handwave away the cost of an advantageous effect (i.e. an invisible effect on adjustment powers) -- without charging more for it when they should (since, you know, it is actually advantageous); and
  3. only a few people seem to know and use the visibility rules per actual RAW.

To use one example from above, an Aid to someone's Blast being automatically invisible ... for free ... seems wrong to me.  Why?  Well, shouldn't people have the opportunity to perceive that the Blast is now stronger ... unless points were paid to keep them from knowing it?  After all, a stronger blast that people don't know about ... is an edge/advantage, right?  (Especially after hitting them with a non-Aided version and having them shrug it off, for example.)

 

What I'm driving at is that I don't think special effects should play into the visibility of the Aided points, at all.  Instead, I think that whether someone's course of action could be influenced by the perception of a Power or Characteristic (collectively 'Ability') being stronger ... should be what determines whether IPE should be required for the Aid's effect.

 

Examples:

  • Aid to STR could cause someone not to fight with the recipient of the Aid -- so IPE should be required on the Aid's effect on STR if you don't want it noticed a la bigger muscles, more sweat running from the armpits, etc. in the Aid's recpient
  • Aid to Blast could cause someone who has been ignoring a Blast that didn't hurt him/her to suddenly pay attention, again, to the person who is tossing the Blasts ... so IPE should be required on the Aid's effect on the Blast if you don't want the improvement noted (i.e. if you want the target to keep thinking it's the same old Blast s/he's been repeatedly hit with)
  • Etc. (You get the idea...)

 

 

Can you normally see the difference between a 10D6 Energy Blast and a 12D6 Energy Blast?

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Unless bought with IPE for the effects, I agree with the above.  And using your example, someone being down a portion of their STUN and BOD --is- visible unless bought with IPE for the effects, right? :)

So being down one of 100 STUN is obvious to all onlookers? Shouldn't being at -1 STUN be obvious, then? RAW says it's "more like he’s deeply Stunned", and that "he may even be on his feet, wobbly but still standing, as he tries to shake off the effects of the attack". Wow - that sounds a lot like: 

 

Beaten, bloody, wobbly; I'd say there's a visible effect.

So, since whether I am KOd is visible, it is impossible to fake being unconscious? No one should ever have to ask "is he dead", as being out of BOD is visibly obvious? That seems a lot more like a videogame with a health bar than the cinematic role playing promised by Hero.

 

Yes. 12d is more intense.

So in a combat scene, you would tell the players the relative damage dice (That blast looks about 25% more intense than yours being 15d6 if my blast is 12d6)?

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Actually, it's RAW, as Durzan has kindly pointed out.  i.e. No one is requiring anything extra; it's just the way it's supposed to be done unless the GM rules otherwise a la the usual GM fiat exception that's all over the 5e and 6e rules.

Actually, if you read the quotes, Page 125 6e1 notes you can tell the effect the power has on the target, not ongoing effects from uses of various powers on the target. So, when the Aid power is used, you should be able to see it is enhancing the target in some way. The fact he was enhanced in some way an hour ago is not visible.

 

Interpreted as some of the comments above, how long is it visibly obvious that a character's wounds were healed by a Healing power?

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We had a discussion about the whole visibility thing a long time ago, and I said then, as I've been saying for years, that the 3-Sense Group rule is dumb.  And I even suggest that IPE not work based on sense groups.

 

If a power is "fully" visible, it means that anyone in the vicinity where a power is being used, knows the following things:

 

1. Where the power came from (the person using it).

2. Where the power came from (the point of origin on the power user).

3. What the target was applied to (the target of the power, if it has one).

4. What effect the power has, in general (what does it do to the target).

5. What the power's special effects are (fire looks different from a lightning bolt).

6. Some idea of the power level or intensity of the power that was used (a 12d6 Blast is going to look "bigger" than a 6d6 Blast).

 

That's about it.  Have I left anything out?  It really doesn't matter how many sense groups these things are visible to, just that their visible.  If you can see all of these things with normal vision and nothing else, that's probably good enough in most cases.  Although just to be safe, and prevent certain munchkin tricks, I'd say there should be some auditory component as well - so even if your back is turned, and you didn't see anything, it got  your attention and you know that some power was used, and you may have some good hints as to #5 and #6.

 

If you buy IPE, you can hide aspects #1, 2, 3, 5, and 6.  For Double the advantage (IIRC), you can also hide #4.  So IPE should be bought based on which of these aspects are invisible, not on which sense groups apply.

 

And of course the visibility of Attack powers has different issues than the visibility of non-attack powers, so IPE  doesn't have to cost the same for each of these.

 

There are a few other possibilities of sense-able aspects to the power, like

 

7. If the power has a Side Effect on the user, that will likely be visible.

8. If the power costs END, the user's level of fatigue may visibly, but gradually, change.

9. Certain Advantages and Limitations will be visible:

...a. An obvious Focus is obviously visible.

...b. A Physical Manifestation is visible.

...c. Expendable Foci are visibly expended.

...d. An Indirect power that follows an indirect path from user to target is visibly indirect.

...e. A power that has an otherwise unexpected effect will visibly have that effect.  (Armor Piercing could be seen to pierce armor more than usual, for example.)

...f. It will be obvious whether the power was used at Range or not.

...g.  etc.  I'm sure there are more examples.

 

#9 brings up yet another question: Which power modifiers are visible, when a power is visible?  What about Power Frameworks?  Can someone "see" that a power is in a MP or VPP?  Can you "see" that a power is NND or Accurate or whatever?

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