How much TK/STR does it take...

[zslane]

How much TK/STR does it take to:

• Prevent a large four-door sedan (say, with two passengers) from leaving the scene of a crime? (i.e., keep it rooted in place while its tires spin)

[mrinku]

Hmm. Good question.

 

While you wouldn't need to fight gravity, you'd be opposing the engine, which may well be more powerful.

 

I'd tend to go with the same amount as required to lift the tyres off the ground (which gives the same game result) and call special effect.

[Tjack]

Is this question just about the math? TK Str vs. velocity+ mass? I generally prefer less effort for the same effect. Grab the wheel rim with TK and let 'er rip!

One rim with tire still attached goes flying and that car's not going anywhere. For a lot less Str than trying to wrestle the whole thing off the road.

[Surrealone]

I agree with mrinku on this -- meaning I'd base the TK STR required on the amount of STR needed to lift the vehicle.  The thinking, for me, is that if you can lift it off the ground to keep it from getting away, then apply the same amount to let it sit there and smoke its tires.  I guess I don't want to punish players for things that increase dramatic effect.  (If anything, they should be rewarded for this, IMHO.)

[Greywind]

While you wouldn't need to fight gravity, you'd be opposing the engine, which may well be more powerful.

 

Which is reflected in the vehicle's STR.

[dsatow]

Actually, you would, at most, need to just lift the vehicle and for practical purposes -5 to -10 Str if you lift a two wheel drive vehicle's end which provides propulsion.  Why fight the engine when you have a vehicle limitation (wheeled propulsion OAF) which helps you.

[Beast]

the vehicle has a str stat
you just have to overcome that

[mrinku]

If we assume that there's some limitation or circumstance that prevents lifting the car (i.e. the special effect of the TK is to increase the force of Gravity locally), it does become a contest of STR vs vehicle power, just as if the character had fired a grapple into the chassis and was resisting the car's movement by main force.

 

Vehicle STR generally represents its carrying capacity, not the mass as such (though they are related - Size gives the base STR and Mass). You can buy up the STR to get more carrying capacity and that often goes with a more powerful engine. To get power you would need to combine the STR with its movement. A STR 15 bike that can move at 100kph clearly has much less power than one that can travel at 250kph. On the other hand, if the first bike had a more robust frame and could carry a STR 20 load it doesn't directly follow that it has a more powerful engine... though you'd likely build that with limitations anyway.

 

Given that in this situation top speed is far less important than acceleration, I'd go with 5 STR to oppose 2m of acceleration velocity (using the Resisting Knockback rules). If you can shut down the vehicles acceleration totally, the wheels are spinnin'. If the vehicle was actually in motion you'd also need to deal with the momentum at the same rate.

 

Edit: On reflection, since this IS a standard sedan and not some super vehicle or hotrod, a STR contest between the car's STR of 30 and the STR of the TK would really seem the best way to go. Each rolls their dice and counts the BODY, using same rules as escaping any Grab. If the car rolls twice or more the TK BODY roll it gets a full move, if it beats the TK but doesn't roll double it escapes but doesn't get to move that phase. If the TK rolls higher the car remains in place with the wheels spinning.

[Christopher]

 

How much TK/STR does it take to:

• Prevent a large four-door sedan (say, with two passengers) from leaving the scene of a crime? (i.e., keep it rooted in place while its tires spin)

 

It is moving and intentionally. So the "stoppign moving objects/catching falling characters" rules should not apply.

 

So it is basically Grabbing it to prevent movement/stop existing movement.

The STR of the engine is used to "break" the grab. If the Vehicle is already moving, you might add STR appropirate for the Velcoity.

Of course this is one of those odd cases of Grabs where once you have a hold you can just "lift" the target so it is unable to apply it's STR anymore.

 

With Telekinesis, the character is usually not dragged along. However this might be the kind of case, where a character can "use Movement Powers to increase STR". If he tries that, he should be dragged along.

[DasBroot]

The rules have us covered on this one:

 

 

 

MOVEMENT AND STRENGTH

Characters can use their Flight or Leaping to enhance their

ability to lift or push. Every 4m of Combat Movement becomes

+1 point of STR. Any movement “velocity” used in this way

cannot be used for movement at the same time, nor can the STR

granted be used for any purpose except lifting or pushing.

 

Characters can also use STR to oppose another character’s

or object’s movement (such as to stop a speeding car). The

character first Grabs the object; the object may make a STR

Roll (with additions to STR from movement) every Phase to

break free from the character’s grip. For every 5 points of STR a

character has (including STR added from movement), he may

subtract 2m of movement per Phase. If the character doesn’t

stop the target’s movement completely the first Phase, and it

doesn’t break free from his grip, he’s dragged along with it unless

he lets go. A character can only stop a resisting object if he has

enough STR to lift that object when it’s not in motion

 

 

 

A sedan has 30 str.  If it hasn't moved yet all you have to do it overcome that 30 str with TK.

 

If it was already moving at 24, for example, then he'd have to beat a 36 STR and if he had a 40 TK strength he could slow it by 8 meters (stopping it in 3 phases).

 

Where it gets fuzzy is if it's already driving non-combat speeds - the rules state 'combat movement' but that doesn't really work well for me.  I'd break the car's speed down to movement per segment (not phase) and use that as the 'combat strength'.  For example  stopping a car going 100 km/h (27 m/s = m/segment)  would require a 37 strength and a strong enough hero (say 50 ) could stop it safely in 3 phases. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

How much TK/STR does it take to:

• Prevent a large four-door sedan (say, with two passengers) from leaving the scene of a crime? (i.e., keep it rooted in place while its tires spin

 

IF ITS STANDING STILL AND TRYING TO DRIVE AWAY

This is why vehicles have a strength rating.  The vehicle uses its strength, you use yours.  GMs can adjust for terrain and situation (is the car trying to drive uphill?  On ice?)  With a high powered performance car or hauler, you're better off just picking the car up; its strength is going to far exceed the amount used to lift it.

 

IF ITS ALREADY IN MOTION

Add the vehicle's movement/4 to strength to represent the energy of the vehicle in motion as shown above in DasBroot's post.

 

These are the kind of things I used to freak out and check the book for when I started running 6th edition.  Then I realized almost none of this stuff has changed, and as a GM I can just go with what I think is right and check it against the rules later -- as an experienced GM you're almost always going to make the right call.

 

[mrinku]

The combat movement rating works for me, since the actual speed is less important than the engine power. Top speed is limited by friction and wind resistance, while combat speed is a better indication of raw grunt. If you can win against the STR plus Combat Move/4 you've won the Grab and the car is no longer able to change velocity.

 

Having *said* that, the TK Grab would still need to deal with the residual noncombat velocity, which might take some time to cancel (I'd use the usual 5m per m deceleration rule).

[Ninja-Bear]

Is this question just about the math? TK Str vs. velocity+ mass? I generally prefer less effort for the same effect. Grab the wheel rim with TK and let 'er rip!

One rim with tire still attached goes flying and that car's not going anywhere. For a lot less Str than trying to wrestle the whole thing off the road.

If you're saying that a car won't move with only three wheels, well I've seen it done.

[zslane]

For the scene I had in mind, the vehicle is not yet moving, but trying to while being held in place by the TK.

 

Looks like the standard "Vehicle has STR; do a STR vs. STR contest to break out of the TK Grab." rules would apply.

[Ninja-Bear]

Ps- I wouldn't even worry about movement. If you have the strength to lift it then it's enough.

[Greywind]

If you're saying that a car won't move with only three wheels, well I've seen it done.

 

Depends on whether or not the car has a single drive wheel.

[Hyper-Man]

Ps- I wouldn't even worry about movement. If you have the strength to lift it then it's enough.

Yes.

Lifting all wheels off the ground is all that's needed.

 

HM

[Christopher R Taylor]

The strength rating of the car is its torque, its hauling power.  The movement is how fast it goes.  The car's Speed rating is how quickly it accelerates, to put it in Top Gear language.

[zslane]

I agree with mrinku on this -- meaning I'd base the TK STR required on the amount of STR needed to lift the vehicle.  The thinking, for me, is that if you can lift it off the ground to keep it from getting away, then apply the same amount to let it sit there and smoke its tires.  I guess I don't want to punish players for things that increase dramatic effect.  (If anything, they should be rewarded for this, IMHO.)

 

This comment is right on point, at least for me.

 

Suppose the player isn't logical enough to think of lifting the car off the ground so it can't drive away. Or suppose the player wants to look badass by allowing the tires to smoke out without the car going anywhere (that "dramatic effect" element). Either way, I was wondering how much STR it would take to keep the car in place without lifting it off the ground.

 

If a car's "engine power" in Hero is based on its weight (i.e., the STR it would take to lift it off the ground), then I guess we have a simple answer. For typical road vehicles, this probably suffices.

[DasBroot]

Yes.

Lifting all wheels off the ground is all that's needed.

 

HM

 

I've ruled it that way as well before but it does give a disproportionate advantage to TK for stopping moving objects - it's really just supposed to be, and is priced as, STR with Ranged. Selectively applying the strength rules for dramatic or sensible purposes could be a slippery slope.

 

After all if you don't need to beat a vehicles strength and movement to stop it from moving - just be strong enough to lift it - why would you need to beat the Hulk's?

[Oruncrest]

I've ruled it that way as well before but it does give a disproportionate advantage to TK for stopping moving objects - it's really just supposed to be, and is priced as, STR with Ranged. Selectively applying the strength rules for dramatic or sensible purposes could be a slippery slope.

 

After all if you don't need to beat a vehicles strength and movement to stop it from moving - just be strong enough to lift it - why would you need to beat the Hulk's?

 

Because most cars don't have arms or legs to force you to break the hold?

[mrinku]

I'd point out that lifting a vehicle OR a character off the ground is sufficient to negate its Running power. Likewise lifting a Swimmer out of the drink.

 

And Superman seems to be stopping a car from moving just fine without needing TK on the cover of Action Comics #1:

 

 

Grabs (TK or otherwise) can also screw up targets with limitations on their usable movement such as Restrainable and Stall Speed/Cannot Hover.

 

I don't think Ranged is a disproportionate advantage for TK over regular STR. Yeah, it's better at stopping moving objects... at range. If the target is within arm's reach, TK and STR pretty much act the same way. And STR has a range option for free anyway (throwing stuff).

 

The third way of disabling the car, which I don't think has been mentioned, is to simply flip it on its roof, which might even be doable by a character with less STR that what was needed to lift it, especially from the side (I'd allow -5 STR to try it, or use a STR contest vs mass).

 

There's no rule that specifically mentions that a ground vehicle without limbs has no way of righting itself. You're assumed to realise that.

[PhilFleischmann]

It's an inherent property of cars that they can't move unless they have traction between their tires and the ground.  Lifting the driving wheels (the back two, assuming a 2-wheel drive vehicle) just enough so that they don't have sufficient grip on the road will stop the card from moving.  And if the tires still have a little bit of contact with the ground, they can be made to "smoke", scraping against the ground without the vehicle moving.

 

Stopping the car without lifting it assumes that the person has sufficient traction with the ground.  If Our Hero's arch nemesis, The Mad Clown, slips some banana peels under Our Hero's feet, then he'll slide along behind the car.

 

But it's really a property of the way cars work.  Just because "Running" is Ground Movement, doesn't mean all ground movement works the same way.  Lifting an airplane off the ground will prevent it from taxiing, but not from flying, because the jets (or propellers) don't have to be in contact with anything but the air.  The only way to stop a helicopter from moving straight up is to weigh it down with a weight heavier than it can lift.  Our Hero may have a 60 STR, but if he only weighs 100 kg, he won't be able to pull down a helicopter with a STR of 30.  To stop the helicopter, he's have to grab it with his arms, while grabbing onto a tree with his legs, perhaps.  Then it would depend on how much strength it takes to either uproot or break the tree, or break Our Hero's grip or body.

[mrinku]

I'd run an aircraft taxiing as still using its flight but below stall speed, but otherwise agree, Phil.

 

A Hovercraft is a good example where it may still be able to thrust while held in the air. Or one of those Gentle Ben swamp boats.

 

So I was not quite right about all Running or Swimming

[zslane]

Stopping the car without lifting it assumes that the person has sufficient traction with the ground.  If Our Hero's arch nemesis, The Mad Clown, slips some banana peels under Our Hero's feet, then he'll slide along behind the car.

 

Is that in the RAW? Where does it say that TK must, by default, obey Newtonian laws of kinematics? For all you know, my TK is defined (the SFX) as manipulating microgravity around the subject in such a way as to control it however I please. Or maybe it's "magic" and it just, you know, works.