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How you recommend building D and D's Bag of Holding and similar artifacts?


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#61 Lucius

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:59 AM

Don't be obtuse.


Well, you start by asking this question
 

Based on Lucius' build, can he trap someone in the bag indefinitely?


which I answer
 

Emphasis Added



Not necessarily the best, certainly not the only, but here is one way.

Bag of Holding: (Total: 124 Active Cost, 27 Real Cost) Extra-Dimensional Movement (Related Group of Points in Time, Physical Location Same As Starting Location), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Usable As Attack (+1 1/4) (124 Active Points); Conditional Power Only on objects that fit in the mouth of the bag (-1 1/2), Limited Power To send object forward to when it is removed from bag (-1), OIF (-1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2) (Real Cost: 27)


Which at first you deny then acknowledge is an answer, then you ask another question

 How does that look to the character using the bag (or the person that would be going in)?


Which I also answer 
 

To one of them, it looks like their friend(?) with a bag pulled over their head. To the other, it looks like the inside of a bag. Probably dark.

You didn't ask what it sounds like, but I imagine it sounding like someone saying "Okay, why did you just pull a bag over my head?"


And now you accuse me of being obtuse, but you ask what amounts to a restatement of the same question I had just answered 
 

 What happens when someone tries to do this?


Which I suppose I could answer by saying that what happens is that one person pulls a bag over another's head and tugs down on it while the other person is standing there confused and unable to see. Or maybe one person is standing with feet in a bag and another is holding the bag's mouth at the first person's knees and tugging up on it. But if I actually answer any of your questions, I begin to suspect that will only lead to further questions, or the same ones over and over. So I will try to do as you suggest and stop being so obtuse as to remain trapped in your Bag of Questioning here. And I will try to remember to specify "Inanimate object" when that's what I mean in a Limitation or description.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary says I actually DID answer that last question, and I guess I did. The Bag of Questioning is hard to escape!

#62 mrinku

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 04:35 PM

What changes in the extra-dimensional space that enables mice to kill cats?   :snicker:

 

 

D'oh! :)



#63 phoenix240

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 04:51 PM

Seems like this is case where the definition of "object" just needs to be clarified. Does it mean non living things or object in a more general sense (not a person) or what exactly? The question could come up in a some circumstances. For instance if a party member is killed and his companions need to transport their remains somewhere to be Raised. Can they now be stored in the bag of holding (assuming they'll fit)? 



#64 PhilFleischmann

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Posted Yesterday, 01:54 AM

Which I suppose I could answer by saying that what happens is that one person pulls a bag over another's head and tugs down on it while the other person is standing there confused and unable to see. Or maybe one person is standing with feet in a bag and another is holding the bag's mouth at the first person's knees and tugging up on it. But if I actually answer any of your questions, I begin to suspect that will only lead to further questions, or the same ones over and over. So I will try to do as you suggest and stop being so obtuse as to remain trapped in your Bag of Questioning here. And I will try to remember to specify "Inanimate object" when that's what I mean in a Limitation or description.

So your interpretation (which you're certainly entitled to, since it's your build) is that when you try to put a living person in the bag, they get stuck with just their head or feet in the bag, and somehow won't be able to go all the way in.  Which is fine, I suppose.  It just looks a bit odd if you just put a mannequin in the bag all the way with no problem.

 

So the bag can then be used as a "Detect Living Thing" item.  A corpse will go all the way in, but a character Simulating Death will get stuck somehow.  And there are all kinds of other questions that might be raised:  What about AI robots?  What about really small living things?  Insects?  Bacteria?  Can the bag be used to knock germs off of whatever is put in it?  An empty birdcage can be put in the bag, but what if it has a live bird in in?

 

Your original Limitation was really two Limitations in one:  "Inanimate Objects Only" and "Only what will fit through the mouth of the bag."  Builds are more confusing this way, more prone to misinterpretation.  Especially when the two different properties being specified have nothing to do with each other directly.  Something's size is not related to whether it is alive.


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#65 Doc Democracy

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Posted Yesterday, 10:32 AM

If you boys don't stop squabbling I am going to take this bag away from you and then neither of you will get to play with it!
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#66 g3taso

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Posted Yesterday, 11:30 AM

All this over what appears to be a dispute of SFX.

 

Turning back to this extradimensional space (or whatever). In the D&D original item this space had the air you bring in with you. Does HERO leave this to the talespinner, or is there particular guidance on whether the extradimensional space this thread is actually talking about contains air or not, stands outside time, etc?



#67 Lucius

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Posted Yesterday, 12:55 PM

If you boys don't stop squabbling I am going to take this bag away from you and then neither of you will get to play with it!


Take the bag, please

Lucius Alexander

Before I feed it to a palindromedary

#68 mrinku

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Posted Yesterday, 05:36 PM

All this over what appears to be a dispute of SFX.

 

Turning back to this extradimensional space (or whatever). In the D&D original item this space had the air you bring in with you. Does HERO leave this to the talespinner, or is there particular guidance on whether the extradimensional space this thread is actually talking about contains air or not, stands outside time, etc?

 

Totally up to the GM to decide, though a player creating the item can pitch whatever they like as well. In essence all HERO special effects are negotiations with the GM having the final word.

 

And especially so when dealing with completely made up stuff like bags of holding. A player might rightly point out that the "distance fallen" column of the falling table is actually wrong, or that the real mass of a sword of lower than the GM always thought, and that sort of discussion deserves a fair hearing. But if they try to claim that a made up magical bag has to or does not have to have air in it they are on pretty shaky ground.



#69 PhilFleischmann

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Posted Yesterday, 09:16 PM

If you boys don't stop squabbling I am going to take this bag away from you and then neither of you will get to play with it!

I'm not squabbling.  I'm asking for clarification.


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#70 Doc Democracy

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Posted Today, 02:25 AM

I'm not squabbling.  I'm asking for clarification.

 

:-) Yeah, I know but both you and Lucius are having the kind of 'discussion' that makes me pleased you are not in the same room.  I dont think that Lucius is interested in providing the kind of clarity you are looking for and, given that you are not likely to be playing in the same game, each of you is quite entitled to a different detail or reality as far as these bags go.  

 

Lucius seems quite content that for people, the bag is simply a bag but for objects it is a magical thing that makes them vanish from reality to appear when someone reaches in their hand to take them out.

 

Both of you would probably have different discussions with your players on exactly how that might be used and probably only when the player decided he (or she) decided to use it as more than an unlimited backpack.  

 

Lucius offered up a build that works for the unlimited backpack in quite an unusual mechanical way and was broad with his advantages and limitations.  he seems content with the build as is.  Why not provide an alternate build for the rest of us to look at, one that you might be more content to use?  

 

I am pretty certain you are going to need to paint inside the lines all by yourself coz it looks like Lucius has packed his drawing stuff away...

 

:-)

 

Doc


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#71 Christopher R Taylor

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Posted Today, 01:18 PM

I'm pretty sure all the examples of the bag require whatever you put in it to fit through the opening, so it doesn't matter if they are alive or not.  A mannequin, a human being: only the parts that fit through that opening get in.


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