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#1 Tech

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 10:11 AM

I've seen tasers built as NND and EB Stun only. What do you think would be an appropriate def for the NND aspect?



#2 Cassandra

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 11:58 AM

I've seen tasers built as NND and EB Stun only. What do you think would be an appropriate def for the NND aspect?

 

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#3 massey

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 01:42 PM

Real life tasers aren't really that effective.  A 3 or 4D6 EB with limited range would work just fine.  They are normally being used against people with stats of 8 to 10.

 

Comic book and action movie tasers may be significantly more effective.


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#4 Cassandra

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 01:49 PM

Real life tasers aren't really that effective.  A 3 or 4D6 EB with limited range would work just fine.  They are normally being used against people with stats of 8 to 10.

 

Comic book and action movie tasers may be significantly more effective.

 

They are best used in surprise attacks like chloroform.


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#5 Doc Democracy

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 02:24 PM

I see teasers as much more like an entangle that immobilises through pain than an attack...

I might be inclined to have them be an entangle against CON as the base power
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#6 Doc Democracy

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 02:24 PM

Possibly with a dice or two of NND blast...

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#7 massey

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 02:59 PM

It's just electricity. I don't see any need for NND.

#8 mrinku

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 03:25 PM

Being poorly grounded, possibly. But EB stun only feels better to me. 


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#9 Doc Democracy

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 04:22 PM

It's just electricity. I don't see any need for NND.


It is a decent way to leak just a little bit of damage through, so more metagame than simulation on my part.

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#10 Hyper-Man

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 05:32 PM

Possible defenses to a NND approach could include being insulated or grounded (like a Faraday suite).

 

As an alternative to NND I recommend reading the Stunning option for Change Environment introduced in APG1.

 

The following notes are from such a build that includes an initial -6 to the CON roll.

From APG1 page 83 - The Stunned effect lasts as long as the Change Environment is maintained (1 Turn*). However, when affected the victim gets to make a CON Roll immediately (at -6*), and if the roll succeeds the attack has no effect on him. If the roll fails, he gets to make an additional CON Roll every Phase he’s affected at a cumulative +1 (so +1 on his second roll, +2 on his third, and so on). As soon as any roll succeeds, the power immediately stops affecting him and he has his full Phase in which to act.

 

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#11 DasBroot

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:29 AM

It is a decent way to leak just a little bit of damage through, so more metagame than simulation on my part.

 

It's just a taser.  Should damage really leak through against a highly energy resistant hero like Superman? Should the Silver Surfer do the funky chicken? Or Bishop - whose power is to absorb energy?  

 

I'm with the EB stun only crowd on this (though given people can and have died from them even that's not entirely accurate).  In my mind's eye it's the very definition of EB stun only (I don't have a visual for PD stun only).


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#12 Christopher R Taylor

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 03:12 PM

Just don't go with the name Taserface


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#13 mrinku

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 04:28 PM

It's just a taser.  Should damage really leak through against a highly energy resistant hero like Superman? Should the Silver Surfer do the funky chicken? Or Bishop - whose power is to absorb energy?  

 

I'm with the EB stun only crowd on this (though given people can and have died from them even that's not entirely accurate).  In my mind's eye it's the very definition of EB stun only (I don't have a visual for PD stun only).

 

PD Stun only might be done as a jet of air or something (though that's often the KB only effect). You need an effect that can't do property damage and isn't just a mercy round for a killing attack (i.e. boxing glove arrow, rubber bullets).

 

The standard physical Stun Only NND is a nerve strike. Something along those lines maybe?



#14 dsatow

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 05:29 PM

I generally do tasers (the shooting kind, not the stunguns) as the follows:

 

Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Constant (+1/2), +6 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1 1/2) (45 Active Points); 2 Charges (-1 1/2), OAF (-1), Reduced Penetration (-1/4), Costs Half Endurance (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4)

Endurance Reserve  (20 END, 0 REC) Reserve:  (5 Active Points); OAF (-1)

 

Please note that this is a supers game where just about everyone has a bit of resistant.  In a more heroic level game, I would probably add Stun only (-0).



#15 mrinku

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:38 PM

An idle thought, and not relevant to STUN only attacks, but I just realised there's little point in specifying "physical" or "energy" NNDs. They get stopped cold or do their stun, regardless of the normal defense you might expect.

 

Science fiction often uses sonics as a stun only energy attack. 



#16 DasBroot

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 08:17 AM

Hmm. Actually, I think I like 'sonics' as a physical stun only.  It's kind of the point behind a few crowd control weapons being developed - to cause discomfort and render unconscious with sonics without causing lasting harm or property damage.

 

I like sonic as physical because it's vibration based instead of thermal reaction based:  It's closer to a punch than a laser.


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#17 mrinku

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 05:23 PM

Fair point.

 

And after my last thought, I did realise that you do sometimes need to know if an NND is Energy or Physical (or Mental for that matter) since Damage Reduction still applies.



#18 bigdamnhero

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 09:08 PM

Real-world tasers are hard to model in RPGs because they're not actually designed to damage or knock out the target; they're meant to first immobilize the target by locking up their muscles, and then to "take the fight out of" the target to make them more likely to comply with commands. The first is probably best modeled as some kind of constant Entangle vs CON. The later is most likely some form of PRE Attack or even Mind Control.

Of course the darts have to stick in order to deliver the charge. They're designed to penetrate normal clothes, but I'd think even 1 point of rPD would stop them.
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#19 Hyper-Man

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 01:33 PM

Did you look at the Stunning build I posted earlier?

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#20 bigdamnhero

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 06:42 PM

Did you look at the Stunning build I posted earlier?

I did, and meant to comment on it but...didn't?

I agree Stunning works better than Entangle in some ways. Certainly there are actions an Entangled character can take that wouldn't seem appropriate for someone being tased. And a CON Roll at -X makes more intuitive sense than using CON to damage an Entangle. And it's probably cheaper. OTOH, having seen people get tased they definitely looked more like 0 DCV than 1/2 DCV to me.

The part that I struggle with modeling is that the real purpose of the taser is not to temporarily incapacitate someone but to "take the fight out of them" and make them compliant. Even serious tough guys tend to stay down once the charge is turned off. Hmm...that almost sounds like some sort of Drain END or a CE: -X to EGO that lasts a few Phases after the Charge ends?
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