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Killing Attacks: Possible House Rule


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#1 phoenix240

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 09:33 PM

A possible House rule we're bouncing around for our campaigns
 
When you roll for Normal damage a value of 1 on the die generate 0 Body, 2-4 is 1 Body and 6 generate 2 Body. 
 
As an alterate for Killing Damage, roll them as you would Normal (1 six sided die per Damage Class) but a value of 1 on the die generaes 1-4 generates 1 Body and 5-6 generates 2 Body. Which would create a base amount of Body equal to the Damage Class and slightly higher results on Average while Average Stun would remain the same and the Max possible Body would be the same (x2 Damage Class).  
 
Killing Attack Body would still only be stoped by Resistance Defense, an Die roll would be used for Knockback, etc. In game that use Hit Location use the stun and Body modifers for Normal Attack for both types of attack. 
 
For example, a Damage Class 6 attack the roll: 1 6 2 4 1 1 (Bad roll!) would generate:
 
Normal: 4 Body 15 Stun 
 
Killing: 7 Body 15 Stun
 
Using this House Rule Killing does more Body, the Stun Lotto effect is eliminated and there is no additional rolls needed to resolve Killing Attacks.. Killing could just become and Advantage. I'm not sure what he value would be yet. 
 
The Increased Stun Multiplier Advantage is lost but it could be replicated by buying more dice as Stun Only on the base attack. 

Thoughts?

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#2 mrinku

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 11:41 PM

It's not a bad idea, but eliminating the STUN lottery devalues Normal attacks being the reliable ones to stun and knock out with.



#3 Nolgroth

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 01:03 AM

I like this rule a lot. I see mrunku's point but that seems more of a factor for superheroic play than heroic play. Plus I hate the Stun Lottery with a passion.

 

Thanks for posting this. I will be sure to rip it off and pass it off as my own brilliance. Wait!  I mean "properly credit the source."  Yeah. That's the ticket. :D



#4 Durzan Malakim

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 02:09 PM

This rule significantly changes the average BODY damage done per hit. There's a 79% chance of doing 7 to 9 BODY, which is almost indistinguishable from doing (standard effect +1) per die. There is no chance of doing less than 6 BODY, and there is less than a 2% chance of doing 11 to 12 BODY.

 

See: http://anydice.com/program/c9e5 to compare a standard 2d6 killing attack to your 6d-alternate-killing-attack.

 

36551163232_568ff9069d_b.jpg



#5 Christopher R Taylor

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 03:15 PM

There's been some discussion here about eliminating killing dice entirely and using normal dice vs resistant defenses instead.  Thus, if you have a 6 damage class killing attack (2d6 KA) you roll 6d6 instead and treat it like a normal attack for counting body.  

 

Quite a bit of number crunching has been done, by myself  and others.  The results are similar, but not exact to the old system, but eliminate the "stun lotto" and rolling an extra die.  I really like the idea for the sake of simplicity and reducing work in rules but I can't quite bring myself to pull the trigger.


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#6 Nolgroth

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 03:33 PM

See: http://anydice.com/program/c9e5 to compare a standard 2d6 killing attack to your 6d-alternate-killing-attack.


Spreadsheets make me sleepy Shepherd. :D

Actually change the formula to 1=0, 2-4=1, & 5-6=2 and you have a sharper curve with low probability of either extreme but still a possibility.

#7 mrinku

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 05:18 PM

How about this idea, using 1d6 per DC for each:

 

Normal dice: Number rolled is the STUN. Read BODY as now.

 

Killing dice: Read the die rolls as 1/2d6 ones to get STUN - 1-2=1, 3-4=2, 5-6=3.  That comes in somewhat like the current 1/2d6 STUN multiplier does. Any increased or decreased STUN multiplier modifiers should work on this system and apply to the reading of the dice. BODY is read as one BODY on 1-5 and 2 BODY on a 6, which matches the current average lethality of 1.167 BODY per damage class for killing attacks, though I'm sure the distribution curve won't be a perfect match. Most of KA lethality comes from ignoring normal defences anyway.



#8 Durzan Malakim

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 06:39 PM

Actually change the formula to 1=0, 2-4=1, & 5-6=2 and you have a sharper curve with low probability of either extreme but still a possibility.

 

Here's the curve with the updated formula of 1=0, 2-4=1, and 5-6=2. I also added a normal attack for comparison.

 

35913068173_2f9e5bcc31_b.jpg

 

Here is some additional data on averages and variance. 

  • 6DCs
    • 2d6 Killing Attack averages 7 BODY and there are 5 values within one standard deviation (2.42): 5 to 9 BODY.
    • 6d6 Alt-Killing Attack averages 7 BODY and there are 5 values within one standard deviation (1.68): 5 to 9 BODY. 
    • 6d6 Normal Attack averages 6 BODY and there are 3 values within one standard deviation (1.41): 5 to 7 BODY.
  • 15DCs
    • 5d6 Killing Attack averages 17.5 BODY and there are 8 values within one standard deviation (3.82): 14 to 21 BODY.
    • 15d6 Alt-Killing Attack averages 17.5 BODY and there are 6 values within one standard deviation (2.66): 15 to 20 BODY.
    • 15d6 Normal Attack averages 15 BODY and there are 5 values within one standard deviation (2.24): 13 to 17 BODY.
  • 21DCs
    • 7d6 Killing Attack averages 24.5 BODY and there are 10 values within one standard deviation (4.52): 20 to 29 BODY.
    • 21d6 Alt-Killing Attack averages 24.5 BODY and there are 8 values within one standard deviation (3.15): 21 to 28 BODY.
    • 21d6 Normal Attack averages 21 BODY and there are 6 values within one standard deviation (2.65): 22 to 27 BODY.

No matter which Killing Attack method you use, the averages will be the same. The only thing that changes is the variance. A standard Killing Attack damage roll provides more variance and will produce maximum or minimum rolls more frequently (within your lifetime). An Alternate Killing Attack damage roll greatly reduces variance. You'll effectively never roll minimum or maximum damage, and instead most rolls will stay close to the average. 

 

Whether you consider these results a bug or a feature depends on your risk-to-reward preferences. If you want to roll really big and really small numbers stick with the standard Killing Attack damage. If you prefer consistently rolling damage near the average, use the alternate Killing attack roll.


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#9 Nolgroth

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 08:29 PM

Well thanks for inputting the number ranges on that web page. I think the Alt-Killing method is my favorite, just looking at the charts. The curve isn't as "pretty" but the results are right in line with what I would like to design around. 


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#10 Hyper-Man

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 08:41 PM

I don't think I've seen anyone ask or answer what happens to the Penetrating Advantage when some type of 'normal' dice killing variant is being used.

 

Anyone have an answer?

 

HM



#11 phoenix240

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 09:14 PM

I don't think I've seen anyone ask or answer what happens to the Penetrating Advantage when some type of 'normal' dice killing variant is being used.

 

Anyone have an answer?

 

HM

I guess it either goes away for killing attacks like Increased Stun Multiple. 

 

Or maybe say that for every 5 or so points of Stun generated a point of Body is done. Up the maximum the attack could have done? 

 

So for the first example

 

1 6 2 4 1 1  
 
Penetrating Killing: 7 Body 15 Stun would inflict 3 Body if Penetrating came into play? 
 
Personally, I'd just drop it. Its something we rarely if ever use. 


#12 mrinku

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 11:35 PM

I don't think I've seen anyone ask or answer what happens to the Penetrating Advantage when some type of 'normal' dice killing variant is being used.

 

Anyone have an answer?

 

HM

 

Good point.

 

This almost certainly would need tweaking and I haven't sat down to do the math, but what about one point of BODY for every double rolled, two points for every triple, three points for each quadruple and so forth?



#13 Doc Democracy

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 02:55 AM

The one thing that I don't like is the fact that high BODY always comes with high STUN, something that is not 'always' true and was a nice feature of the RAW killing attack. It would not change the damage profile to say 1s and 6s generated 2 BODY while everything else generated 1.

Thus an extreme roll of 6 1s on 6d6 would give you 6 STUN and 12 BODY. :-)


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#14 Doc Democracy

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 03:13 AM

I don't think I've seen anyone ask or answer what happens to the Penetrating Advantage when some type of 'normal' dice killing variant is being used.
 
Anyone have an answer?
 
HM


I don't think that there is a conflict. Once you apply killing to the attack, then any penetrating advantage relates to the BODY of the attack by default. Depending on how you do it, penetrating killing attacks may get cheaper. I would prefer to see the base cost of a killing attack be higher than have killing be an advantage simply for the way the costs are calculated.

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#15 Durzan Malakim

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 09:52 AM

I don't think I've seen anyone ask or answer what happens to the Penetrating Advantage when some type of 'normal' dice killing variant is being used.

 

Anyone have an answer?

 

HM

 

Since each Killing Attack die is normally 3 DCs, I'd suggest one of these methods, which have increasing variance and complexity:

  • No Variance Penetrating: Total DCs / 3 = Penetrating Damage
  • Some Variance Penetrating: [Total DCs / 3] + [Count the number of ones and sixes in roll. Subtract one if there are more ones. Add one if there are more sixes] = Penetrating Damage
  • More Variance Penetrating: [Total DCs / 3] + [Count the number of ones / 3, round result, and subtract this from total] and [Count the number of sixes / 3, round result, and add this to the total]. = Penetrating Damage

If you want more variance than that, revert to standard Killing Attack and Penetrating mechanics.


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#16 Christopher R Taylor

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 09:53 AM

I don't think I've seen anyone ask or answer what happens to the Penetrating Advantage when some type of 'normal' dice killing variant is being used.

 

 

Same thing as now, it just applies to the body instead of the stun.  It basically makes only the body of the attack effectively AVAD, but the stun is defended against as normal.  Since the bulk of the attack is unaffected, its not worth as much as a normal AVAD, so you get a smaller advantage.  Which makes the +½ of penetrating make sense, now.  For normal attacks, I think its too expensive.


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#17 phoenix240

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 12:23 PM

Since each Killing Attack die is normally 3 DCs, I'd suggest one of these methods, which have increasing variance and complexity:

  • No Variance Penetrating: Total DCs / 3 = Penetrating Damage
  • Some Variance Penetrating: [Total DCs / 3] + [Count the number of ones and sixes in roll. Subtract one if there are more ones. Add one if there are more sixes] = Penetrating Damage
  • More Variance Penetrating: [Total DCs / 3] + [Count the number of ones / 3, round result, and subtract this from total] and [Count the number of sixes / 3, round result, and add this to the total]. = Penetrating Damage

If you want more variance than that, revert to standard Killing Attack and Penetrating mechanics.

 

I like method 2. 



#18 phoenix240

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 12:24 PM

The one thing that I don't like is the fact that high BODY always comes with high STUN, something that is not 'always' true and was a nice feature of the RAW killing attack

 

That's true. I like the Low stun/high Body aspect of killing attacks too. 



#19 Durzan Malakim

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 12:39 PM

The one thing that I don't like is the fact that high BODY always comes with high STUN, something that is not 'always' true and was a nice feature of the RAW killing attack. It would not change the damage profile to say 1s and 6s generated 2 BODY while everything else generated 1.

Thus an extreme roll of 6 1s on 6d6 would give you 6 STUN and 12 BODY. :-)


Doc

 

To preserve the distribution listed earlier, you need to assign the 0 BODY result to another die value such as:

  • Die value 1 does 2 BODY
  • Die value 2 does 1 BODY
  • Die value 3 does 0 BODY
  • Die value 4 does 1 BODY
  • Die value 5 does 1 BODY
  • Die value 6 does 2 BODY

Pick your least favorite middle number and make it a non-contributor.



#20 Christopher R Taylor

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 01:04 PM

The one thing that I don't like is the fact that high BODY always comes with high STUN, something that is not 'always' true and was a nice feature of the RAW killing attack

 

 

Its an interesting feature, but the question then becomes: what is this simulating?  If you buy every lethal attack in a certain way, it should best simulate the bulk or average of lethal attacks.  Is a bullet or axe really doing more body and less stun than a kick or a punch?  Or does the way defenses work mean more body gets through to affect the target?

What I mean is this: are lethal attacks necessarily dealing more body damage than stun -- they don't hurt very much but kill -- or are they doing about the same as normal attacks, but the body tends to penetrate defenses better?


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