Cloaking Device

[cbullard]

I have a 5^th Ed Superheroic character who wants to make a vehicle, a small personal spaceship, with a cloaking device.  Based on some of the conversations among our group of players, as well as the discussion on this list last year about Invisibility to Hearing Group (http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94148-invisibility-to-hearing-group/) made me think there are some significant “issues” with the Invisibility power, and that there might be better and/or more clearly-defined ways to approach this.

 

I was thinking of something like Darkness to Sight Group and Radio Group.  Unless I am mistaken, this would prevent anyone from seeing the ship or detecting it with radar, etc.  (You could add other Darkness levels to cover other sorts of detection if desired, such as Darkness to Hearing Group to foil Sonar for a submarine.)  Unfortunately, this would mean the ship also couldn’t see or use radar or similar radio-based sensors, so I would add “Personal Immunity” to the Darkness power.

 

However, this would mean she could still be spotted as a large black blob-o-darkness.  Would something like “invisible power effects – sfx only” get rid of that, and basically give you an area that you couldn’t see into, but didn’t KNOW that you couldn’t see into?  I suppose the special effect would be something like a distortion field that bends the light/radio waves around the ship, so you still see what’s on the other side.  The "personal immunity" could then be because the ship's sensors are attuned to the distortion field, so can operate through it.

 

Does that sound like it would work within RAW?  Can anyone suggest a more effective, or less costly, means of setting up a cloaking device?

 

I welcome your thoughts, and thank you in advance.

 

[Nothere]

Nope. Darkness means it's dark. A big blob of dark is sort of a requirement. What your describing is invisiblity.

[mrinku]

I suspect you're overthinking the problems with Invisibility.

 

Firstly, in space the ONLY targeting senses that normally count are electromagnetic ones (Sight and Radio). You won't have to worry about cloaking your sound, smell, touch or taste. Mental senses are a potential one depending on setting. Gravitic sensors are something else that might apply.

 

Secondly, that thread is specifically talking about secondary noises caused by a character with invisibility to hearing. If the character was flying and not walking on dry leaves there would be no issue. 

 

Invisibility has a fringe effect that can be seen at close range by default. That would cover the "blob" effect of occasional star occultation.

[Lord Liaden]

I would suggest Change Environment to generate as large a desired penalty to sensors as you want. There'd be no fringe or discernible "darkness" produced -- failure to make a Perception Roll would just mean the cloaked ship isn't noticed. Depending on the size of the penalty and the modifier for range between the ship and the sensor, the ship could be practically undetectable, but at increasing risk of being found the closer it got.

[Spence]

Based on some of the conversations among our group of players, as well as the discussion on this list last year about Invisibility to Hearing Group (http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94148-invisibility-to-hearing-group/) made me think there are some significant “issues” with the Invisibility power, and that there might be better and/or more clearly-defined ways to approach this.

 

 

 

There is a tendency to really over think things on the forums sometimes.  The reality is that Hero is a tool kit that can model virtually everything and all systems have small inconsistencies. 

 

Fred's Invisibility can simulate a Trek type "cloak" with no problems as written.  

 

Just my opinion of course, but we had no issues in our games and tend to use the KISS principle. 

[cbullard]

There is a tendency to really over think things on the forums sometimes.  The reality is that Hero is a tool kit that can model virtually everything and all systems have small inconsistencies. 

 

Fred's Invisibility can simulate a Trek type "cloak" with no problems as written.  

 

Just my opinion of course, but we had no issues in our games and tend to use the KISS principle. 

 

 

 

I personally agree with you.  To me, if you're invisible to a particular sense, then you can't be detected by that sense.  RAW is particularly inconsistent on this topic, though, implying that if I buy Invisibility then the ship is invisible only so long as she doesn't move (which sounds a lot more like Chameleon to me).  As soon as she kicks in her Flight power, she becomes visible (or at least detectable) unless I also bought Invisible Power Effects for her Flight power.

[cbullard]

I suspect you're overthinking the problems with Invisibility.

 

Firstly, in space the ONLY targeting senses that normally count are electromagnetic ones (Sight and Radio). You won't have to worry about cloaking your sound, smell, touch or taste. Mental senses are a potential one depending on setting. Gravitic sensors are something else that might apply.

 

Secondly, that thread is specifically talking about secondary noises caused by a character with invisibility to hearing. If the character was flying and not walking on dry leaves there would be no issue. 

 

Invisibility has a fringe effect that can be seen at close range by default. That would cover the "blob" effect of occasional star occultation.

 

Trust me, the one who's overthinking it is not me.  ;-)

 

I could see cases where Sight Group might be relevant as a targeting sense in space, although I agree they should definitely be in the minority.  On the other hand, how many space ships have we seen that have windows in the control center, especially the smaller craft?  I'm thinking Millenium Falcon, X-wing, Serenity, Milano, Viper, etc.  So someone looking out the window would still be able to tell she was there, and at least in cases like X-Wings or Vipers, seem to be able to target anything they can see.

 

And yes, that was the main gist of that thread.  But it still has relevance to this example because I've got people in our group claiming that even with Invisibility to Hearing Group, when the ship made planetfall or was taking off, people nearby could still hear the sound of her passage, due to secondary noise of her passage through the air.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the impact of the fringe effect.  Could you please expound on this?

 

Thanks!

[cbullard]

Nope. Darkness means it's dark. A big blob of dark is sort of a requirement. What your describing is invisiblity.

 

Fair enough lol.

 

And yes, I agree that the result I'm looking for is to make the ship not be visible.  I'm just running into a lot of hair-splitting and rules-lawyering on some of the aspects of the RAW for the Invisibility power, and Darkness seems to be a way to accomplish the same end result with fewer inconsistencies in the relevant RAW.

[cbullard]

I would suggest Change Environment to generate as large a desired penalty to sensors as you want. There'd be no fringe or discernible "darkness" produced -- failure to make a Perception Roll would just mean the cloaked ship isn't noticed. Depending on the size of the penalty and the modifier for range between the ship and the sensor, the ship could be practically undetectable, but at increasing risk of being found the closer it got.

 

 

That is also an option that I've been considering, but it seems a less-effective one.  Yes, it can creates minuses to the PER roll, but statistically speaking, but the "always succeed on a Crit roll" option would mean that 4% of the people/ships nearby would still see you, no matter what your minuses were.

[mrinku]

As a point, how realistic is your space stuff here? Because the chances of noticing a star occultation by naked eyesight at more than a few kilometres distance is pretty much nil, unless the ship is moon sized or something. If you're running around at Star Wars distances of a few hundred metres, casual observation is much more likely, especially if the cloaked ship moves between two other ships.

 

In regards to active radar, there's no way of noticing something that does not reflect the pulse back. Of course, that assumes perfect radar invisibility, which may not be the case (despite USAF propaganda, stealth planes are not impossible to detect).

 

In regards to rules lawyering, the rules are MEANT to adjusted for specific situations by the GM. If you feel the cloaking device cannot be detected by sight above 500 Megametres, so be it, regardless of rolls.

[cbullard]

As a point, how realistic is your space stuff here? Because the chances of noticing a star occultation by naked eyesight at more than a few kilometres distance is pretty much nil, unless the ship is moon sized or something. If you're running around at Star Wars distances of a few hundred metres, casual observation is much more likely, especially if the cloaked ship moves between two other ships.

 

In regards to rules lawyering, the rules are MEANT to adjusted for specific situations by the GM. If you feel the cloaking device cannot be detected by sight above 500 Megametres, so be it, regardless of rolls.

 

 

Unfortunately, I can't answer that question, for the simple reason that I don't know yet.  There hasn't been a lot of space stuff yet, but I can see where it might become more prevalent in the near future.

 

I'm not the GM, so I don't get to make those kinds of rulings.  We have multiple GMs who have a distinct tendency anytime they don't agree on something, to say, "Go see what the HeroGames list group says."  And so here I am.

[mrinku]

Ah. I see.

 

Well, a darkness field will usually give the same effect of obscurement, but you may want to consider what you want to happen when your ship moves in front of another object at relatively close range.

 

Do you want it to look like an obvious black blob, or (at worst) a subtle distortion rippling across the other object?

 

As well, is it expected that this device will work on a planet? A darkness field will stick out like a sore thumb in daytime while an invisibility field will still cloak the ship.

[cbullard]

Ah. I see.

 

Well, a darkness field will usually give the same effect of obscurement, but you may want to consider what you want to happen when your ship moves in front of another object at relatively close range.

 

Do you want it to look like an obvious black blob, or (at worst) a subtle distortion rippling across the other object?

 

As well, is it expected that this device will work on a planet? A darkness field will stick out like a sore thumb in daytime while an invisibility field will still cloak the ship.

 

You bring up another aspect of this application that I'd been looking at.  I'm wanting something more like the ST:TOS Romulan Cloaking Device.  My thought was that Invisibility should cover it, but RAW indicates that the special effect from the ship's Flight power would still be visible unless I *also* bought "invisible power effects," which seems like I'm having to pay again for what should already be covered.

 

But like I said, I'm not the GM, so I don't get to make those decisions.

 

Literal "black blob" darkness is not a requirement for the power under RAW.

 

"...Darkness can create a field that’s impervious to one Sense Group (usually the Sight Group). Some examples of Darkness include smoke grenades, mystic spells of silence, and blinding fields of impenetrable blackness."

 

Any way you look at it, though, it creates an area that is opaque to whatever sense, and that very opacity could be noticeable.  As has been mentioned already, Change Environment could make it harder to notice the ship, but we're still having to use multiple powers to accomplish what I think should be dealt with by one.  And that doesn't consider the PER modifiers for things like possibly loud engine noises, sensitivity of detection devices, etc.

 

What would happen if you bought a Darkness power with the Invisible Power Effects advantage?  Would that give you something like the old D&D power, "Invisibility, 10' radius"?  (and yes, I know you can add an Area of Effect advantage to Invisibility, but we're still stuck dealing with the problem of the special effects rendering the ship visible again.)

[mrinku]

I don't really see an issue with needing to buy IPE on the flight, or for that matter on any weapons. It SHOULD be more expensive to make a ship that can maneuver, or fire, under cloak - thrust emissions are usually a major way that spaceships are spotted in most settings.

 

And if you don't use the flight you're back to being invisible (ditto for shooting). This isn't a D&D spell that evaporates once you touch the target.

 

Engine noise doesn't come into it in space (except in the loosest sense of EMR emissions). In effect everything gets a free "invisibility to sound and smell" in a vacuum at range because those senses simply do not work there. You'd notice sound if physically hanging on to the hull, though.

[cbullard]

I don't really see an issue with needing to buy IPE on the flight, or for that matter on any weapons. It SHOULD be more expensive to make a ship that can maneuver, or fire, under cloak - thrust emissions are usually a major way that spaceships are spotted in most settings.

 

And if you don't use the flight you're back to being invisible (ditto for shooting). This isn't a D&D spell that evaporates once you touch the target.

 

Engine noise doesn't come into it in space (except in the loosest sense of EMR emissions). In effect everything gets a free "invisibility to sound and smell" in a vacuum at range because those senses simply do not work there. You'd notice sound if physically hanging on to the hull, though.

 

 

 

I'm completely good with weapon-fire visibility being a separate thing from ship invisibility.  But I do have an issue with "Invisibility means the ship is invisible only as long as it doesn't move."  That's the description for Chameleon, not Invisibility.

 

Regardless, there is almost always more than one solution to a problem.

 

Do you think that Darkness with the Invisible Power Effect advantage would have the same end result of making the ship non-detectable, as described previously in this thread?  If not, what effect WOULD it have, in your opinion?

 

Thanks in advance!

[mrinku]

I wouldn't allow IPE on a zero range darkness because it doesn't actually enhance the power. IPE is meant to be used to disguise the source of the effect... in this case while you *technically* might not be able to determine that the darkness field was generated within the area it's covering, it's a fair assumption. If another ship was actually generating the cloak and projecting it on the one being cloaked, that's when you'd use IPE.

 

Why so anti-IPE on the Flight, anyway? Stealth aircraft have to reduce their hull's radar signature AND baffle their engines' heat and noise.

 

What special effect do the engines have? Ion drives, anti-gravity, chemical rockets, solar sails, warp drive, inertialess thrusters, atomic torches or what? (some of those are made up - but made up by classic SF authors) That will suggest what they are visible to in the first place.

 

And... just because flying around with the jets blasting away may allow them to have a shot at you, it's NOT the same as Chameleon. They still can't see your ship or have any idea what size it is (except very indirectly from the exhaust). Chameleon makes you fully visible as soon as you move.

 

As an example, let's say your ship moves using chemical rockets and is cloaked against Sight (including IR and UV) and Radar. Rockets would be visible and noisy (but not in space) but not visible to Radar. You're flying along under cloak.

 

Up pops a Baddicon cruiser, armed with heat seeking missiles and radar aimed laser cannon. The Baddicon captain can tell that some kind of cloaked ship is moving under thrust and orders his crew to open fire with all weapons. The missile operator gleefully launches his nega-torpedoes, but the laser gunner woefully advises the captain that he cannot get a lock on and is immediately eaten by the captain. Bad gunner!

 

Your hero desperately maneuvers to avoid the incoming missiles but they turn to follow. Firing one last time on a tangent, you switch the engines off and coast, hoping the nega-torps aren't bright enough to calculate the vector. Hooray! It turns out they can't!

 

On the other hand, if the ship moves by manipulating gravity (and would show up like a bonfire on gravitic sensors), the Baddicon cruiser, without gravitic  sensors would be totally unaware.

 

On the other other hand, if a Psi-goon ship turned up, their esper navigator may well simply mind scan the location of your ship.

 

Now, having said all that, I don't actually have any issues with using Darkness to give a space-concealment effect, and if that's what you want, go for it. But you can't turn it into Invisibility by applying IPE. If you want an area effect Invisibility, pay for that instead. Although once your exhaust leaves the area it would become visible (and the same applies to your darkness field).

[dmjalund]

Sounds like default ships flight should have the Visible Limitation,as superheroes flight do not always leave a trail.

 

An invisible superhero that flies is generally no less invisible than one who walks - they are just different movement powers.

 

So unless a spaceship has the "visible" limitation on their flight, invisibility should hide it even if it is moving

[massey]

The only real answer here is "talk to your GM". Everything else is a waste of time.

 

There are times when the official RAW Hero interpretation goes off the rails and you have to wonder what the author was thinking. Very few examples of flight in the real world leave behind any sort of "visible" effect. It strains my disbelief in the system (and honestly it strains my desire to play) to suggest that an invisible bird's wings become visible when they flap unless it paid for IPE.

 

I'd just let you buy regular Invisibility and call it good. You can fly around and nobody will notice, because that's good enough for me. But talk to your GM.

[massey]

Let's put it another way. The USS Enterprise doesn't have a cloaking device. It also doesn't leave behind any sort of visible effect when it moves. You can see the thing moving, but there's no obvious "propulsion" effect. Since the Enterprise isn't concerned with being seen, obviously it didn't buy IPE on its Flight.

 

Now let's say you have a Romulan warbird. It is flying around with no cloak active. Surely it also follows the Enterprise rule of "doesn't leave visible trail". Now it engages its cloak, bought as regular Invisibility. Now it moves forward. What is its suddenly-visible Flight supposed to look like?

[Spence]

I personally agree with you.  To me, if you're invisible to a particular sense, then you can't be detected by that sense.  RAW is particularly inconsistent on this topic, though, implying that if I buy Invisibility then the ship is invisible only so long as she doesn't move (which sounds a lot more like Chameleon to me).  As soon as she kicks in her Flight power, she becomes visible (or at least detectable) unless I also bought Invisible Power Effects for her Flight power.

 

I'm confused.  RAW doesn't mandate that someone becomes visible as soon as they do something. In fact that is a limitation that can be added.  It does say that Invisible does not necessarily cover all powers that a character has, but it doesn't mandate that doing something automatically reveals either.   In space it would depend on the type of engine used.  And of course if you fire projectiles/missiles/beams then they would become visible as soon as they left the cloaked ship, if they were of a visible nature themselves.  But that can be overcome by applying IPE to the attacks.  All in all, RAW make the Star Trek Cloaking device easy and straight forward since they did become un-cloaked when attacking. 

 

But a spacecraft using a reactionless drive is easy to build using RAW Invisibility with no fringe.  Add in weapons with IPE and there you go. 

 

All this assuming you are using CC.

 

Even the 6th Ed vol 1 is pretty much the same with a qualifier that will an invisible person that physically attacks (punch, kick, etc) will remain invisible.  But if they used a weapon,  that weapon will be visible for a segment.  ie One Second.    So a punch is just the target receives damage out of the thin air, but a club will be suddenly visible for a second.    Not too much a difference and it makes sense. 

 

I really don't understand the issue.  Invisibility is easy RAW.

[Spence]

The only real answer here is "talk to your GM". Everything else is a waste of time.

 

There are times when the official RAW Hero interpretation goes off the rails and you have to wonder what the author was thinking. Very few examples of flight in the real world leave behind any sort of "visible" effect. It strains my disbelief in the system (and honestly it strains my desire to play) to suggest that an invisible bird's wings become visible when they flap unless it paid for IPE.

 

I'd just let you buy regular Invisibility and call it good. You can fly around and nobody will notice, because that's good enough for me. But talk to your GM.

 

 

Let's put it another way. The USS Enterprise doesn't have a cloaking device. It also doesn't leave behind any sort of visible effect when it moves. You can see the thing moving, but there's no obvious "propulsion" effect. Since the Enterprise isn't concerned with being seen, obviously it didn't buy IPE on its Flight.

 

Now let's say you have a Romulan warbird. It is flying around with no cloak active. Surely it also follows the Enterprise rule of "doesn't leave visible trail". Now it engages its cloak, bought as regular Invisibility. Now it moves forward. What is its suddenly-visible Flight supposed to look like?

 

 

What official rules interpretation requires ADDING an engine trail?

 

You are all really confusing me (not you massey, but the overall group).  I have just read multiple versions of invisibility in the actual rule books and no where does it say you have to add visible anything.    All is says is that Invisibility does not necessarily cover all powers and weapons of  the invisible whatsit.  

 

If my cloaked spaceship uses reaction drives, then the thrust/exhaust plume would definitely be visible everytime I maneuvered. 

 

If my spaceship used a reactionless drive, then my invisible ship would still be invisible when it maneuvered.  

 

If the assertion is that Steve indicated otherwise, then I'd need to actually read the full question he was replying to, because I doubt he would directly contradict the RAW, and therefore my guess is he was replying to a specific that included a drive that produces exhaust of some sort.  

 

No where in the RAW (that I have found) does it add effects.  It only discusses handling existing effects.

 

Your second paragraph about the Enterprise and the Warbird is spot on.  No where does RAW require an added effect. 

Or if it does, can someone point me to the page?

 

All in all I really do not understand the ongoing rush to overcomplicate one of the simplest powers.......

[cbullard]

> IPE is meant to be used to disguise the source of the effect.

 

But the Hero Generator lists multipliers for Source Only, SFX only, or Hide Effects of Power, as well as options for single sense, sense groups, and fully invisible.

 

 

> What special effect do the engines have?

 

I believe it was the Psychlo ships in the L. Ron Hubbard novel, "Battlefield Earth" that I stole the idea from: the ships move/fly by means of continuous teleportation.  (Game terms: compound power Flight + Teleportation, must pass through intervening space.  Yes, I figure I could justify doing either power singly and calling the rest a special effect, but went with the more expensive compound in order to forestall arguments -- a failed effort, as it turns out.)  As such, it would be an inertialess drive, with no need for emissions.

 

 

> Why so anti-IPE on the Flight, anyway? Stealth aircraft have to reduce their hull's radar signature AND baffle their engines' heat and noise.

 

Mostly because I feel like I'm being "over-charged" due to some in-group rules lawyering.  The ship already has Stealth to cover the radar/sensor cross-section.  I've already bought the power in a very expensive way (see above), and one of the reasons for doing so was to cover things like this.  To add IPE, I would probably have to add it to BOTH Flight and Teleport, and frankly, after all the points I've already spent on it, that just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

 

 

> the laser gunner woefully advises the captain that he cannot get a lock on and is immediately eaten by the captain. Bad gunner!

 

ROFLMAO!  Thank you, I needed that! :-)

 

 

>On the other hand, if the ship moves by manipulating gravity (and would show up like a bonfire on gravitic sensors), the Baddicon cruiser, without gravitic  sensors would be totally unaware.  On the other other hand, if a Psi-goon ship turned up, their esper navigator may well simply mind scan the location of your ship.

 

Yep, I completely agree -- espers, or several other types of sensors, would not be fooled in the least by this.

 

 

> Although once your exhaust leaves the area it would become visible (and the same applies to your darkness field).

 

It absolutely would, regardless of which approach the ship uses.  ANYTHING that leaves the area of effect of the cloaking device (whatever form that ends up taking) would immediately become visible.

 

 

> But you can't turn it into Invisibility by applying IPE.

 

And I can certainly respect that position.  That said, there is nothing in RAW forbidding applying IPE to Darkness, so what WOULD that do?

 

Again, thank you for your thoughtful replies on this -- please don't take anything I've said to mean that I don't appreciate it!

[cbullard]

The only real answer here is "talk to your GM". Everything else is a waste of time.

 

There are times when the official RAW Hero interpretation goes off the rails and you have to wonder what the author was thinking. Very few examples of flight in the real world leave behind any sort of "visible" effect. It strains my disbelief in the system (and honestly it strains my desire to play) to suggest that an invisible bird's wings become visible when they flap unless it paid for IPE.

 

I'd just let you buy regular Invisibility and call it good. You can fly around and nobody will notice, because that's good enough for me. But talk to your GM.

 

 

I am of the same mind as you.

 

Unfortunately for me, we have more than one GM in our group, and they can't come to a consensus, so they suggested I seek input from this group.

[cbullard]

I wouldn't allow IPE on a zero range darkness because it doesn't actually enhance the power. IPE is meant to be used to disguise the source of the effect... in this case while you *technically* might not be able to determine that the darkness field was generated within the area it's covering, it's a fair assumption. If another ship was actually generating the cloak and projecting it on the one being cloaked, that's when you'd use IPE.

 

 

Just found this in the 5th Edition book, where it is talking about IPE on p.126:

 

"For example, a character might want to create an Invisible Darkness field which would still interfere with Sight of those inside it (and those trying to look into or “through” it), but whose source and/or special effects could not be perceivable."

 

I could easily see that as an *alternate* solution (with Invisibility being the obvious primary solution) to creating a cloaking device.  That would seem to eliminate all the debate over visible special effects, exhaust fumes, etc. provided that none of them leave the area of the Darkness power.

 

Don't you agree?

[mrinku]

Sure, but really the same applies to Invisibility. Someone using wings or willpower to fly with does not need to buy IPE (sight) on their flight while invisible to sight. The wings would still be audible, but that's just going to be using the rules for using a non-targeting sense.

 

The continuous teleport stardrive thing I'm pretty sure was invented by Bob Shaw in Who Goes Here? (1977). Basically the way that worked was the ship had a teleport transmitter at one end and a teleport receiver at the other and continually transmitted itself to itself. A superb (and very cynical) book.

 

GDW used the concept as the basis of their Stutterwarp Drive for 2300AD.

 

I see no reason for something like that to need IPE while under cloak.