Other Characters assisting in rituals

[iamlibertarian]

Has anyone figured out a way for other characters, a coven for example, to assist in a ritual casting?

For example:

A ritual spell that requires a coven to assist in a long ritual of a Summoning spell. The coven gathers around the magic circle. The coven leader (main spell caster) casts the Summoning spell. Other coven members want to AID (or other power) or otherwise boost the power level of the Summoning, whether through AID or some other method.

Can only one member of the coven actually assist in the spell, or is there some other way that all other members of the coven truly assist in the spell casting?

Thanks!

DC

[Armitage]

If the spell requires a Skill Roll, then other people can provide a bonus to the main caster's Skill by making their own Skill Rolls.  The Advanced Players Guide has an optional version of Requires a Skill Roll in which the margin of success increases the final Active Points of the Power.

-1/4 less Limitation: +5% Active Points per point of success, maximum +25%.

-1/2 less Limitation: +10% Active Points per point of success, maximum +50%.

-1 less Limitation: +20% Active Points per point of success, maximum +100%.

[mrinku]

Teamwork or Power skill (Magic or Ritual Magic) seem appropriate. The spell could also be built with extra dice of Summon that requires additional casters to be used, or flat out require them through a custom limitation.

 

Another tactic would be to build it with a very low fixed roll (such as 8 or less), such that bonuses to the roll from Power Skill (Magic) would be pretty much required to cast it successfully.

 

But doing it as an Aid power would work fine.

[dsatow]

I've done it as a cosmic power pool at low levels (15 active powers) per cultist.  When the players encountered them, they would group in sets of 7.  The center cultist had a base 3d6 EB and each of the 6 other cultists would supply another 2d6 usable by other.  End result, the PC (at 12d6) had to take out groups of cultists throwing 15d6.  Many of the players bought Area of Effect attacks after that adventure. 

[iamlibertarian]

But doing it as an Aid power would work fine.

 

But only one of the casters can actually AID, or at least the one with the highest roll?

[iamlibertarian]

The spell could also be built with extra dice of Summon that requires additional casters to be used, or flat out require them through a custom limitation.

 

I knew I was forgetting something, lol. Thanks!

[iamlibertarian]

Can the followers (Coven) learn the specific ritual as well, and have the total power of the spell increase, in the above case, summoning?

[mrinku]

But only one of the casters can actually AID, or at least the one with the highest roll?

 

Hmm? No, normal Aid just adds until you hit the maximum effect cap. Doesn't usually matter where the Aid came from.

 

That's a thought... instead of Aiding the active points directly, you could build it so that they're providing levels of Increased Maxium Effect. One way to do that would be to have an Independant Advantage  (and so not tied to any one spell) . That could be directly Aided itself or built using partial limits (i.e. the first doubling needing 1 assistant, the second doubling needing 3, the third doubling needing 7 etc).

[iamlibertarian]

I've done it as a cosmic power pool at low levels (15 active powers) per cultist.  When the players encountered them, they would group in sets of 7.  The center cultist had a base 3d6 EB and each of the 6 other cultists would supply another 2d6 usable by other.  End result, the PC (at 12d6) had to take out groups of cultists throwing 15d6.  Many of the players bought Area of Effect attacks after that adventure. 

LMAO, thanks.

[mrinku]

Can the followers (Coven) learn the specific ritual as well, and have the total power of the spell, in the above case, summoning?

 

Well, they can learn it, but how it meshes with someone else who knows the same power depends on how you build it.

[iamlibertarian]

And, if possible, I would like it something that is paid for by the Coven members themselves. To make them somehow...special...beyond just an average every day Normal.

[iamlibertarian]

Hmm? No, normal Aid just adds until you hit the maximum effect cap. Doesn't usually matter where the Aid came from.

 

True, but if they all only had, say, 1D6 Aid, it could never go beyond 6 points of Aid, right?

[iamlibertarian]

Well, they can learn it, but how it meshes with someone else who knows the same power depends on how you build it.

 

But there is a way it can be built to add on to the main spell?

[CptPatriot]

Has anyone figured out a way for other characters, a coven for example, to assist in a ritual casting?

For example:

A ritual spell that requires a coven to assist in a long ritual of a Summoning spell. The coven gathers around the magic circle. The coven leader (main spell caster) casts the Summoning spell. Other coven members want to AID (or other power) or otherwise boost the power level of the Summoning, whether through AID or some other method.

Can only one member of the coven actually assist in the spell, or is there some other way that all other members of the coven truly assist in the spell casting?

Thanks!

DC

Well, the idea of a magic circle could be thought of as a focus and the need for multiple casters could be equated to a crew served weapon.

 

Now, I don't remember if it's in the 6th, but historically you could buy crewed weapons as an additional limitation to the Focus limitation.

[DShomshak]

I intended to respond when I saw the topic, but other people have already said everything I planned to say. Carry on.

 

Dean Shomshak

[iamlibertarian]

I've done it as a cosmic power pool at low levels (15 active powers) per cultist.  When the players encountered them, they would group in sets of 7.  The center cultist had a base 3d6 EB and each of the 6 other cultists would supply another 2d6 usable by other.  End result, the PC (at 12d6) had to take out groups of cultists throwing 15d6.  Many of the players bought Area of Effect attacks after that adventure. 

 

So you are saying, for example in a ritual spell, lets use Summoning:

 

A character has, say, Summon Lesser Dragon. 

 

With the assistance of cultists, they could have a small VPP with Assist Summon Dragon, which could add their points to my spell, allowing the character to summon a more powerful Dragon (Summon Dragon), and with enough assistance from more cultists, an even more powerful summoning (Summon Greater Dragon)?

 

And if so, in what way could the cultists assist if the Summon Lesser Dragon was in a VPP and maxed out the Active Points (Control Cost)? Is there a way they could help increase the active points allowed? I know they could AID the VPP, but only to the max of the Highest level AIDer. For example, if they all only had AID 1D6, the max they could add is 6 points, no matter how many of them there are, and that would have to cover the increase of the Control Cost of the VPP and the Active Points of the Summon Dragon spell itself.

 

I was looking to make cultist (coven) minions as low level followers. I want them to be able to assist in rituals, but not be very powerful themselves. They are minions who have to be taken care of in return for their loyalty to the coven.

 

Thanks!

[Lucius]

True, but if they all only had, say, 1D6 Aid, it could never go beyond 6 points of Aid, right?

I think that's right.

 

That is to say, correct by the rules, not that I think it's a good idea for the rules to be that way.

 

However, if you have 13 in a coven and each has an Aid to Magic, each can aid the next to boost that AID up.

 

Last in line uses their fully boosted Aid to boost the ritual cast by the High Priest.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Boosted by a palindromedary

[iamlibertarian]

Now this makes sense! It sounds very..."ritual" to me as well!

However, if you have 13 in a coven and each has an Aid to Magic, each can aid the next to boost that AID up.

Last in line uses their fully boosted Aid to boost the ritual cast by the High Priest.

Lucius Alexander

Boosted by a palindromedary

[BoloOfEarth]

I've done it as a cosmic power pool at low levels (15 active powers) per cultist.  When the players encountered them, they would group in sets of 7.  The center cultist had a base 3d6 EB and each of the 6 other cultists would supply another 2d6 usable by other.  End result, the PC (at 12d6) had to take out groups of cultists throwing 15d6.  Many of the players bought Area of Effect attacks after that adventure. 

 

However, by a strict reading of RAW, wouldn't that cultist actually be throwing a 3d6 EB, plus a whole bunch of 2d6 EBs?

 

As to the OP, the way I've done a big ritual summoning (with DEMON) is giving the Morbane a VPP with a 40 point Pool and 250 point Control, with all VPP slots requiring OAF, Gestures, and Incantations.  Total cost is 90 points.  Yeah, that's a lot of points, but something big should require a lot of points.  And when he isn't doing anything big, he can still use it for smaller stuff like a Scrying Mirror (Clairsentience), Shield Brooch (Damage Reduction), etc.

 

Obviously, if he wants to pull something up to 250 AP (like Summon 1000-point creature, Friendly), he needs a lot more than those basic Limitations.  Like Requires Multiple Users (5-8 coven members; -3/4), make the OAF require Difficult to Obtain materials and be an Arrangement (a total of -1 1/2), Extra Time (5 Minutes; -2), Gestures and Incantations throughout Extra Time (-1 total).  He sets the VPP outside combat, so no roll is required.  If he wants to be a real jerk about it, he can drop the time to 1 Minute (-1 1/2)  and add Side Effects (Major = 125 points, only affects environment around caster, occurs automatically; -1/2), and he's effectively feeding his coven members to the summoned creature.

[dsatow]

Sorry, been out of country on vacation.  So I'll answer the questions directed at me now.

 

1) Each cultist had 15 VPP.  So each could do 2d6 EB usable by another.  6 cultists would surround one cultist (1 per hex plus the center hex).  The center hex cultist had a 3d6 EB.  Thus 6 * 2d6 = 12d6 + 3d6 base which made it 15d6.  Unfortunately (or fortunate for the heros) the Usable by Another was no range, so each cultist would effectively be grabbing another cultist and dropping their DCV down to half.

2) In the case of Summon, each cultist would probably commit to 25 points of active summon (cost 5 base points), usable by another, at range.  Then divide the point cost of the summon creature by 25 to determine the minimum number of cultists required to summon the creature.  So a 1000 point dragon would take 40 cultists.

[BoloOfEarth]

My point was that Usable By Another isn't additive.  If I have an 8d6 Blast (OAF blaster), and my team gadgeteer hands me an 8d6 Blast (OAF blaster, Usable by Another), that doesn't give me a 16d6 Blast.  It gives me 2x 8d6 Blasts.

 

Per 6E1:354:

 

 

UOO can only grant a character a new power; unless the GM rules otherwise it can’t enhance or add to a power the character already has.  For example, if a character has Teleportation 30m and someone uses Teleportation 10m, Usable By Other on him, he has two powers, Teleportation 30m and Teleportation 10m, not one Teleportation 40m. To enhance a character’s existing power, use Aid.

 

So in your first example, by RAW the center hex cultist can throw his own 3d6 Blast, plus 6 additional 2d6 Blasts.

 

Similarly with the Summon.  If all of the cultists have Summon 25-point creature, Usable by Another at Range... that means that 40 cultists can summon 40x 25-point creatures.  Not 1x 1000-point creature.  So the heroes will be beset by a pack of normal-sized lizards.

 

Granted, you were the GM, so you could certainly rule otherwise if you wish.  (And if you're going to do that, IMO you should allow the players to do likewise, and be prepared for the team of PCs to help boost one hero's blast up to 36d6 -- that's 12d6 + 4x 6d6 UOO at Range, assuming a 5-player team with each hero having a 60-point Multipower.)

[mrinku]

Try this build for ritual magic:

 

Power (whatever); Requires a Roll (Ceremonial Magic); Requires Multiple Users (some number); Side Effects (something bad)

 

So if you have less than the required coven members, the roll gets a penalty and increases the chances of a backfire.

[Doc Democracy]

The big down side of requires multiple users is that all the users need to have the power/skill that is being utilised...

 

If this was a summon, I think that there would have to be particular demons of certain size. A single cultist might be powerful enough to singly summon any demon but a normal cultist would need support. All cultists get balancing powers and complications as they rise through the heirarchy, one bonus is a power that boosts others summoning power. A two cultist boost will help summon a demon of one greater rank, a four cultist boost will increase two ranks and eight cultists raise it three ranks.

[BoloOfEarth]

The big down side of requires multiple users is that all the users need to have the power/skill that is being utilised...

 

Ah.  I did not realize that.  So my method of a group summon (posted earlier) wouldn't work either, because the underlings don't have the same Summon as the Morbane.

 

Hmmm... I suppose I could replace the Requires Multiple Users limitation in the Summon with Increased END (3x), putting the final END cost (75!) beyond what the Morbane has without burning STUN, with his minions instead using Aid END 8d6+1, Requires Multiple Users (which all of them could have in their 50-point Black Magic Multipower).  An average roll on 8d6+1 would increase the Morbane's END by 72 points, making it possible for him to cast the ritual.

[mrinku]

You could build it with Usable on Others if you don't want all the casters to have to know the full spell. They may still need to meet certain requirements. That's also a way of making the underlings pay for the END (and potentially suffer any side effects) while the caster has full control. But that is getting a trifle messier than I like.

 

As far as Multiple Users goes... the CC description doesn't specify the other users have to have the power. I'd be good with "users of the appropriate type". So a tank gun with this limitation would need crew with WF: Tank Guns, even if it was technically owned by a character who was commanding the tank. As long as the minions had the appropriate skill with the magic being used, I think they should count as users.