Non-combat influence

[Crusher Bob]

How do you represent a character's influence over a particular section of society?

 

For example, 'everyone' comes to Bruce Wayne's parties, and he could talk to them and they might consider his opinion on whatever he was talking about. In theory, that sort of thing is different from being wealthy. For example, we could imagine Union Man, whose secret ID is an important figure in a major union and wields considerable political influence even though he doesn't have a lot of money.

 

We don't really want to write:

contact: the mayor of campaign city

contact: various members of campaign city's legislature

contact: the governor of campaign state

contact: various members of campaign state's legislature

etc on Union Man's character sheet

 

In addition, Union Man would be able to exert some influence on the Mayor of Campaign city, no matter who they were. That is, even though Union may may have a personal relationship with the guy who happens to be Mayor, if some other guy got elected mayor, Union Man would most likely be in the (new) Mayor's office the next day, telling the (new) Mayor how things were going to be.

 

This seems to call for a perk similar to wealth, we'll call it 'influence' to show what sort of stuff you can accomplish.

 

The fringe benefits like 'member of the nobility' or 'head of state' don't seem to actually give any power. For example, if you are a member of the nobility, you might not have to pay certain taxes, different laws might apply to you, etc. But there seems to be no direct way to represent your ability to exert influence.

[mrinku]

It's common in other systems to run that as a kind of rank within the organisation, or in society.

 

In HERO it would fall under Fringe Benefit and cost 1-10 points. I only have Champions Complete to hand, but I'm pretty sure other products have given values for social ranks less than "Head of State". Military rank uses the same FB costs.

 

In the case of Union Man it's actually there under "Membership in an organisation". FP doesn't spell out what benefits a character gets for belonging - that's worked out by the GM and player as appropriate. Level 10 would be the head of a national or international labor movement, or political party, so if Union Man is an important local figure, he might have level 5 or so. That would definitely cover multiple contacts among city and state politicians as well as some with "the other side" in terms of industry negotiators.

 

As far as Bruce Wayne goes, the Waynes are old money and he'd definitely have high rank in American High Society... let's say 8 or so. This would not directly carry over to other upper class groups such as British Quality, French Nobility or Japanese Corporate Society, though the various upper crusts tend to respect each other. An Astor would generally be acceptable as a guest at a party thrown by a British Baron, and marriage is definitely not out of the question.

 

And that's the difference between Bruce Wayne (Filthy Rich and American High Society 8) and Lex Luthor (merely Filthy Rich). Both are rank 10 in their own Corporations, though. Which is a Perk often overlooked by players doing billionaires, but can nicely cover situations where the personal wealth isn't appropriate (negotiating defense contracts, operating research labs, employing thousands of experts etc.)

[Crusher Bob]

Huh, I always thought that the 'rank' style fringe benefits only gave the explicit benefits of that rank, not the 'implicit' benefits. So the 'Head of state' fringe benefit is supposed to also be enough to let you generally boss that state around, as opposed to just making you impossible to arrest, baring war, and stuff like that?7

 

[edit]

And, I'd assume, that the 'ranks' would map roughly to he levels of wealth?

 

So

Rank 1-5 Local power

Rank 6-10 National Power

Rank 11-15 International Power

 

So Local Union Man might be rank 3 or something and National Union Man might be rank 6 or 7.

 

And a particularly effective US President would be rank 12 or 13, and a Bruce Wayne who decided to skip all this silly mask wearing stuff, he was going to cure malaria and end world hunger would end up rank 11 or 12? And, I dunno, Darkseid, would be rank 15?

 

[yet another edit]

 

And how would this interact with contacts. For example, if I have a contact with the local police:

(11-) 2 points

Useful skills 1 point

Contact has access to major institutions 1 point

x3 Organization Contact

That's 12 points spent on just being able to get the local cops to go the extra mile for you.

 

When you could pay, say 4 points for rank, and be a very important officer in the local cops, what does the 12 points for the contact get you?

[Surrealone]

Crusher Bob,

Your read on Rank is correct.  That said, take a look at the optional rules for Resource Point Pools in APG1 on page 194.  In your case, you likely want the following:

1. Rank that makes sense for the character;
2. an appropriate amount of Wealth for the Rank of the character;
3. the Well-Connected Perk; and
4. a Resource Point Pool that is GM-limited (i.e. worth no points as a limitation) to the types of Contacts appropriate to the Rank and Wealth selected for the character.

 

A Resource Point Pool limited to Contacts appropriate to the Rank/Wealth you have chosen for the character would give you an allocable pool of points representing your ability to dial up the mayor, the chief of police, the governor, your senator, etc -- without having to buy them all separately or pre-define them all.  You'd still have to compute the value of each contact, but as long as a contact fit into your pool and your GM allowed you to reach out to that contact, you'd be in good shape. 

 

The Resource Point Pool mechanism was basically designed to address the very type of need/scenario you've posted about.  It fills in the gap that Rank and Wealth fail to deal with...

[Lucius]

 

There's a Skill called High Society. One could buy a very high roll with it.

 

Reputation could also be used for the "everyone knows who I am and cares what I have to say" effect.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Who listens to a palindromedary?

[massey]

Yeah I think High Society is generally the best way to represent this. Theoretically there could be a lot of rich people with high social standing who throw crap parties. Just because you come from a wealthy family with connections doesn't mean that people want to show up.

 

Likewise you could have someone like Jay Gatsby, who has zero family connections at all, but his parties are the place to be seen.

[DasBroot]

I agree with the skill approach - make them worth something.

 

HIgh levels of High Society and Bureaucracy are, and should be, about more than where to set a dessert fork between bites and cutting red tape.

 

If contacts are used, though, it's an opportunity to broadly define a 'group' contact - perhaps for one bump more in cost (though they're already pricey enough).

 

Instead of group contact (police) perhaps use group contact (civil servants) - which would cover *everyone* employed by the city government from the police to fire fighters to mail carriers: Everyone knows your name and is willing to help out (most appropriate for 'only in certain identities').

 

Alternatively Positive Reputation: All (bought to desired level).

[TheDarkness]

I generally won't worry too much about making someone buy something to demonstrate every element of this.

 

Think in terms of real world parties/banquets. Not everyone is there because they know the person throwing it that well. A throws party, B and C go because they know A well, D through H go because they either know B or C well, etc.

 

So, I would presume that some people there are there because of affiliation with someone else. As long as the right contacts are invited, and the right venue and cause and all are in place, then it can be assumed that the effect is to get more than immediate contacts, and some of the result is not because of the contacts A bought, but that B or C has.

[massey]

15 points of Wealth can buy a lot of booze.  The words "open bar" still carry meaning in this world.

[mrinku]

Well, being high up in an organisation has it's restrictions as well as its perks. The US president may be a head of state and have a lot of influence thereof, but they can't just do whatever they like. Even the worst despot needs to keep *someone* happy (usually the army). And rank in High Society isn't going to do you much good when trying to sway Union Man.

 

The appropriate skills help, though.

[Lucius]

And rank in High Society isn't going to do you much good when trying to sway Union Man.

Maybe, maybe not. But Reputation: Friend of the Working Class or PS: Labor Activist might.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Swaying a palindromedary

[IndianaJoe3]

I've used organizational contacts for this sort of thing.

[Greywind]

15 points of Wealth can buy a lot of booze.  The words "open bar" still carry meaning in this world.

 

Bruce Wayne: Everyone. Everybody.

[clinks his glass]

Bruce Wayne: I, uh... I wanna thank you all for coming here tonight and drinking all of my booze.

[the guests laugh]

Bruce Wayne: No, really. Uh... There's a thing about being a Wayne that... you're never short of a few freeloaders, like yourselves, to fill up your mansion with, so, here's to you people. Thank you.

Fredericks: That's enough, Bruce.

Bruce Wayne: Mm... I'm not finished. To all of you, uh, all you phonies, all of you two-faced friends, you sycophantic suck-ups who smile through your teeth at me, please leave me in peace. Please go. Stop smiling. It's not a joke. Please leave. The party's over. Get out.

Fredericks: The apple has fallen very far from the tree, Mr. Wayne.

[mrinku]

Maybe, maybe not. But Reputation: Friend of the Working Class or PS: Labor Activist might.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Swaying a palindromedary

 

Sure. It's not an either/or thing. But for the sort of influence the OP was asking about, FB: Union Member (rank 5) would seem to fit.

 

PS: Labor Activist doesn't confer rank - the same skill is used for a lobbyist, workplace negotiator, national secretary or the assistant of any of those.

 

You'd expect Union Man to likely have both organisational rank and an appropriate PS. Plus some relevant KS's, specific Contacts and Favors and Interaction skills. Unless he's well-connected but bad with people (lose the interaction skills), charming but ignorant (lose the KS: Labor Relations and KS: Socialist Theory), or skilled but not officially part of the movement (lose the FB: Union Member).

 

The difference between knowing someone through rank, professional skill or background and a Contact is largely down to them willing to put themselves out for you. So PS: Reporter would usually give you access to the head of the newsroom and allow you to interact with them on a boss/employee level, but you'd normally need them as a specific Contact/Favor to ask them to go out of their way or risk their job to help you.

[Surrealone]

As mrinku points out, access does not equal a willingness to do things for you.  So, as food for thought:

• High Society only tends to get you knowledge of who's who ... and a certain amount of access to them.
• Rank (a la Fringe Benefits) is also similar, as it tends to get you access ... but not necessarily cooperation/assistance.
• ​Wealth has a similar issue -- in that it can buy a lot of things ... but it might not buy someone going out on a limb for you a la cooperation/assistance.

Complimentary skills (Bribery for Wealth; Persuasion for Rank/High Society) should certainly be relevant, but at the end of the day, I believe Contacts/Favors are the correct approach for a certain degree of guaranteed cooperation/assistance based on one's standing in society.  I say this because having to sway the mayor with a Persuastion roll to help you when you 'bump into him' at a High Society-based party you're both attending ... is very different from the mayor helping you because you've got a working relationship of some kind and he owes you a Favor or because you go back/forth helping each other, regularly, a la associates aka Contacts.  

 

And that brings us right back to use of a Resource Point Pool for Contacts (and, reasonably by extension, Favors) if you don't want to predefine a bunch of them to represent actual relationships (which is what the original poster seemed to be driving at).  Even organizational contacts are fair game if your Resource Point Pool for Contacts/Favors is large enough...

[mrinku]

Of course not everyone has or uses the APGs

 

But Surrealone is correct for those that do.

[megaplayboy]

Yeah, I'd say some combination of Rank, Wealth, Reputation, High Society and Contacts will tend to give you what you're looking for.  You can sort of "reverse engineer" this by figuring out how much impact and value it should have in-game--5 points? 50 points?  Somewhere in between?  

Culture Knowledge: State and Local Political Scene might be a good skill too.  Having a few favors also helps get things done.  

Keep in mind that Contact: Mayor's office/City Council/State legislature/Governor's office/local police/state police are all organizational contacts.  Depending upon how important non-combat interactions are in your game, a Union might also be an organizational contact.

[Manic Typist]

If the PC has paid points for Contact: Mayor of City, the PC has that Contact, regardless of what happens.

 

If the election kicks that mayor out, they have a Contact: New Mayor of the City. You could spend some time roleplaying out the transition - perhaps the new mayor is from the same party as the old mayor and the PC knows them from previous interactions/city politics. If they are of the opposite party, then Union Man is now perhaps one of the new forces of political opposition and the mayor will want to know him/her well, but the end result is the same. Contact: Mayor of the City.

 

Now, if the PC names the contact and puts down Contact: Mayor Bob Bobberson, then the GM and player need to either agree that the contact transfers to the new mayor OR Bob Bobberson is just as useful in his new position/retirement that equals the cost of the original contact.

[Sean Waters]

Crusher Bob, it's a role playing game so role play it: have your character go round to everyone's house and kidnap their children and pets and tell them they are not getting them back unless they come to your party and dance like monkeys.

 

Of course that is not going to work with everyone because, for example, if you kidnapped my children then you'd be the one promising favours if only I'd take them back.  If you were stupid enough to kidnap my dog too, I'd own you.  Damn dog.

 

You just let me know when I start being helpful and I'll rein that right in.