Universal Focus vs Useable by Others

[iamlibertarian]

UOO Focus (6E 360) states that giving another character said focus does not negate the need for LOS. And, Steve Long himself in a recent response to me in the Rules forum said that giving another character a potion to use still requires the LOS to be maintained by the Granting character (assuming no other advantages counter this rule, such as Time Limit for example).

 

Does this mean that either:

 

1) My character gives another character a Gun, if I run around the corner breaking LOS, the receiving character cannot use the Gun?

 

2) An enemy NPC steals one of my OAF which is Universal meaning that NPC can use it, I can prevent said use just by leaving the scene or even just running around the corner so my character cannot see said NPC? That seems to defeating the purpose of Universal Foci (6E 380).

 

Thanks!

 

 

[massey]

Official answers on this question are going to be, well let's call it "overly cautious" (that sounds better than paranoid).

 

Focus is a limitation. It is supposed to make the power worse than it was before. Taking OAF, and then handing out powers to all your buddies is not what the limitation was intended for. Giving powers to others is supposed to be handled with the Usable On Others advantage.

 

What that means is that technically you shouldn't hand your gun to a friend, but an enemy should be able to steal it from you just the same. But that's a weird effect to see in actual gameplay, and following it can kind of break your suspension of disbelief. So I'd say that if you intend to regularly give your power to your friends, you should probably buy it UOO just to be safe. If you just happen to do it once or twice, it's probably okay to leave it a Focus.

[iamlibertarian]

Official answers on this question are going to be, well let's call it "overly cautious" (that sounds better than paranoid).

 

Focus is a limitation. It is supposed to make the power worse than it was before. Taking OAF, and then handing out powers to all your buddies is not what the limitation was intended for. Giving powers to others is supposed to be handled with the Usable On Others advantage.

 

What that means is that technically you shouldn't hand your gun to a friend, but an enemy should be able to steal it from you just the same. But that's a weird effect to see in actual gameplay, and following it can kind of break your suspension of disbelief. So I'd say that if you intend to regularly give your power to your friends, you should probably buy it UOO just to be safe. If you just happen to do it once or twice, it's probably okay to leave it a Focus.

 

I get that part. I have no plans to (nor have ever done so) randomly hand out gadgets etc. to other characters (unless it was intended that way with the power, in which case I bought UOO, or my character was just the excuse for someone else gaining and paying CP for a new power.)

 

And I agree that Focus is a Limitation, if it is taken from my character, I can't use that power. But there is a reason there is a +0 difference between Personal and Universal Foci. If my character goes down, the nearest teammate can borrow my gun for that scene, but so can my enemy.

 

I am just looking to clarify rules...If said character (enemy or friend) who picks up my Gun (Universal) when my character is unconscious, could either of them even use it, when I am unconscious (breaking LOS)? Or,

 

If conscious and an enemy steals said Gun, or my (one time) hands said gun to a teammate while my character goes off to heal another character, can either of them use it when I leave LOS?

 

According to UOO Focus, they cannot, IF I am understanding it correctly. That seems...odd.

[massey]

I get that part. I have no plans to (nor have ever done so) randomly hand out gadgets etc. to other characters (unless it was intended that way with the power, in which case I bought UOO, or my character was just the excuse for someone else gaining and paying CP for a new power.)

 

And I agree that Focus is a Limitation, if it is taken from my character, I can't use that power. But there is a reason there is a +0 difference between Personal and Universal Foci. If my character goes down, the nearest teammate can borrow my gun for that scene, but so can my enemy.

 

I am just looking to clarify rules...If said character (enemy or friend) who picks up my Gun (Universal) when my character is unconscious, could either of them even use it, when I am unconscious (breaking LOS)? Or,

 

If conscious and an enemy steals said Gun, or my (one time) hands said gun to a teammate while my character goes off to heal another character, can either of them use it when I leave LOS?

 

According to UOO Focus, they cannot, IF I am understanding it correctly. That seems...odd.

 

No, they can pick up the gun and it works just fine.  Universal Focus is a different mechanic from UOO.  If you look at the rules for Focus on pg 380, you'll see nothing about the LOS issue.

 

The ruling on page 360 regarding UOO Focus is just trying to ensure that the player buys the full Advantage necessary to make the power work.  It's trying to say that you don't get the other stuff "free" even though you put it through a Focus.  But your examples aren't about handing out weapons to your buddies regularly, you're asking a question that's just about how Universal Foci work, no UOO necessary.

[mrinku]

Just checked Steve's answer on that one and while it probably should have been implied, no mention of a Universal Focus was mentioned. I hate to say it, but I think Steve may have overlooked that aspect.

 

Having said that, the GM has to keep an eye out for rules abuse. You are definitely not meant to build an arsenal of Universal Focus super weapons and then distribute the guns to your buddies at the start of every combat, though that may not matter if the gear is paid for with cash instead of character points.

 

A typical Universal Focus power is not UOO at all - anyone who has it is the person casting the power. Such powers can be UOO, which would allow the owner to grant the power to someone else. And they would require LOS on the person they granted it to, per UOO.

 

i,e, Wand of Strength, OAF (Universal, Breakable) 8x1 minute continuing charges +30 STR UOO, as opposed to:

 

Potion of Power, OAF (Universal, Breakable) 8x1 minute continuing charges +30 STR

[iamlibertarian]

Thank you massy and mrinku. What you both say makes good sense.

 

The (very) few times I have run a game (way back in 4E, lol) and since then as a player, I have had no problem with characters building an arsenal handing it out, as I see it being the same as casting powers directly on them being pretty much the same, -as long as the appropriate cost is paid' (useable by others)-.

[mrinku]

No worries. And it's probably worth pointing out that the person who paid for the focus is usually the one who needs to recharge it. If Mike the Mage gives a healing wand to Penny the Paladin to use, it becomes useless to her after the charges run out. Although special effects will determine some of that (you may be okay with another Mage recharging it, just as another weaponmaster might be able to reload special bullets into a stolen gun. Or the focus might be one that can be commonly recharged, like a real 9mm pistol or a super soaker)

[Cantriped]

Don't forget too that in a Superheroic Campaign you still need to pay for Weapon Familiarity with any Weapons you didn't personally pay points for. So if The Blink picks up ​The Sentencer's ​Big Revolver​ (built as RKA, Clips of Recoverable Charges, OAF Universal, etc) they suffer the -3 nonproficiency penalty unless they've taken the appropriate WF. 

 

Granted powers don't suffer that limitation (AFAIK) because as long as the grantee has the power, they also have proficiency with it just as if they'd actually purchased it themselves.

[mrinku]

Actually, Cantriped, that's only the case if the GM is bothering to use WF at all. It's fairly common in Superhero campaigns to not bother with Weapons Familiarity and have that as a dormant skill. Transport Familiarity is another one that is often dormant, since it rarely comes up in the genre - i.e. characters with a piloting background tend to be hyper-experienced and can fly anything (cf. Ben Grimm, Hal Jordan), while non-pilots never seem to have any problem using team vehicles (Quinjets, Fantasticars etc), though the latter are probably bought with shared points anyway. And often it's just a moot point since everyone has built in travel powers.

 

Although it is common to see it used in Superheroic campaigns sometimes, so it was well worth mentioning the point!

 

And as with all rules, the GM might impose it for dramatic purpose on a one-off basis, especially for NPCs (i.e. Colin the DNPC boyfriend picks up the villain's dropped Quantum Blaster and nervously draws a bead, never having been in combat or held a weapon in his life...)

[Cantriped]

Actually, Cantriped, that's only the case if the GM is bothering to use WF at all. It's fairly common in Superhero campaigns to not bother with Weapons Familiarity and have that as a dormant skill. Transport Familiarity is another one that is often dormant, since it rarely comes up in the genre - i.e. characters with a piloting background tend to be hyper-experienced and can fly anything (cf. Ben Grimm, Hal Jordan), while non-pilots never seem to have any problem using team vehicles (Quinjets, Fantasticars etc), though the latter are probably bought with shared points anyway. And often it's just a moot point since everyone has built in travel powers.

 

Although it is common to see it used in Superheroic campaigns sometimes, so it was well worth mentioning the point!

 

And as with all rules, the GM might impose it for dramatic purpose on a one-off basis, especially for NPCs (i.e. Colin the DNPC boyfriend picks up the villain's dropped Quantum Blaster and nervously draws a bead, never having been in combat or held a weapon in his life...)

I've never heard that before, nor played in a campaign where that was the case. I certainly can't recall any Hero Games Supplement I've ever read that suggested ignoring the Weapon Familiarity rules (but I could be wrong). They just don't usually come up in Superheroic Campaigns because most heroes, villains, and agents are all paying for their Equipment using CP, and therefore don't need WF for them. Even so... you can still find plenty of Champions-Universe cannon examples NPCs that purchased WFs, even for types of weapons they've purchased one or more of (such as Small Arms), just so that said characters can use normal versions of said equipment as well as their paid for versions.

 

Regarding Team Vehicles:

I would assume that basic training in a team's vehicle is just one of those things that happens off camera... because you only tell stories about interesting events, and "Ben Grimm practices in a Flight Simulator for eight hours" makes for a poor comic book issue. Plus there isn't an official Hero System 6th Edition write-up for characters like Ben Grimm. So its not like we can check if they actually bought TF with their team's vehicles 'like they should have'; most of which I would assume Mr. Fantastic pays for in that campaign... since his power-set is so cheap/weak that he has points to spare on Gadgeteering, Bases, Vehicles, etc (leaving him the only one with automatic Familiarity).

 

As a GM, I would simply earmark some bonus XP towards the appropriate TFs/WFs in campaigns including lots of Team Equipment. Which produces the desired result of players not worrying about whether they know how to use the team super-car/jet, without producing the undesired result of them being able to pick up and use stolen/barrowed equipment without penalty.

[massey]

I've never heard that before, nor played in a campaign where that was the case. I certainly can't recall any Hero Games Supplement I've ever read that suggested ignoring the Weapon Familiarity rules (but I could be wrong). They just don't usually come up in Superheroic Campaigns because most heroes, villains, and agents are all paying for their Equipment using CP, and therefore don't need WF for them. Even so... you can still find plenty of Champions-Universe cannon examples NPCs that purchased WFs, even for types of weapons they've purchased one or more of (such as Small Arms), just so that said characters can use normal versions of said equipment as well as their paid for versions.

 

Regarding Team Vehicles:

I would assume that basic training in a team's vehicle is just one of those things that happens off camera... because you only tell stories about interesting events, and "Ben Grimm practices in a Flight Simulator for eight hours" makes for a poor comic book issue. Plus there isn't an official Hero System 6th Edition write-up for characters like Ben Grimm. So its not like we can check if they actually bought TF with their team's vehicles 'like they should have'; most of which I would assume Mr. Fantastic pays for in that campaign... since his power-set is so cheap/weak that he has points to spare on Gadgeteering, Bases, Vehicles, etc (leaving him the only one with automatic Familiarity).

 

As a GM, I would simply earmark some bonus XP towards the appropriate TFs/WFs in campaigns including lots of Team Equipment. Which produces the desired result of players not worrying about whether they know how to use the team super-car/jet, without producing the undesired result of them being able to pick up and use stolen/barrowed equipment without penalty.

 

Mr. Fantastic is actually really expensive if you include all the things he can do in the comics, and you're not just giving him 6" of Stretching and leaving it at that.

 

As far as WF and TF, I believe there's a note in one of the 4th edition books (either Hero System 4th Edition with the viking and the spaceman and the superhero on the cover, or the BBB) that says that WF and TF are not commonly used for superheroic campaigns.  It's been a long, long time since I read those books, but even when I was new player I remember thinking that superheroes didn't need those.

 

A lot of character writeups changed with 5th edition, when the books and the character sheets got much Long-er.  Then every little tidbit started appearing on the page, like "KS: '80s rock bands, 8-".  In a heroic campaign, it's probably worth it to know whether your character knows how to ride a motorcycle or drive a semi.  It's something that could come up often enough to justify messing with it.  In a superhero game, characters using real world equipment is going to be pretty damn rare.  In fact, in 20 years of playing Champions, I don't know that I've ever had a character use a vehicle that he didn't pay points for, or use a (real world) weapon, except in a narrative, non-combat sense ("okay Bill, you're in your secret identity, and you're driving to the grocery store..." or "you're at the gun range...").

 

Superhero characters come pre-loaded with attacks and transportation that they've already paid points for.  When James Bond needs to stop a runaway train, he rushes to the engine and hits the brakes.  When Superman needs to stop a runaway train, he flies to the front, grabs the engine, and pushes against it.  If a super has combat driving, I figure that covers pretty much all ground vehicles (maybe not the shuttle crawler, but almost everything).  If he has combat piloting, I figure that covers all air vehicles.  Likewise if someone has combat levels with something, I figure they've got the WF with it.  1 level with All Ranged will cover basically any ranged weapon you pick up.

[Cantriped]

I started with 5th, so I missed out on that 4th edition clause. Thanks for citing it!

 

It is true that 5th & 6th edition write-ups include a lot of things that probably aren't going to be worth points in a typical campaign... but by the same token, NPCs aren't strictly held to point budgets. They are built on as many points (and with as many) complications as is appropriate to represent their capabilities. It is only for PCs that we should be worried about whether or not the game element is going to come up.

 

Regarding TFs/WFs: We are just quibbling over a half-dozen points at most. I can't think of many characters that need more than a few 2-point categories to use any available vehicles/weapons they so desire, and there is a reason why Combat Driving/Riding/Piloting include a 1-point TF (because it all your likely to need to make use of the skill). However I look at CSLs and WFs very differently than you. I wouldn't allow someone to purchase CSLs (with Blades for example), if they didn't already have an appropriate WF (Blades in this case). Nor should a single All Ranged CSL should function as a universal WF in addition to it's already described benefits (+1 OCV, +1 DCV, +1/2 DCs, etc).

If I build a character that uses a magical sword, I'm also going to drop a point on WF (Blades) so that I can use the non-magical ones too (because I don't expect the GM to give me anything I didn't pay for). Likewise a character with a Super-cycle would also have the appropriate TF to use regular Motorcycles too (probably take that using the Everyman TF slot, or by purchasing Combat Driving.

[massey]

I'm not 100% positive that it's really in there, it's just what I remember from years ago.

[Armory]

I just dug out my battered 4th Ed hardcopy (not the BBB) and the only thing I saw was mention of no Familiarity required if CPs were spent on the mode of transport or weapon.  I didn't see anything that exempted TF or WF from Superheroic campaigns in general.  But I didn't spend a lot of time searching either, and I suspect the BBB might mention it.  My copy is well-buried in the back of a closet.

 

Having said that, we've never really worried about it in our superheroic games.  As Cantriped mentioned, we've just assumed that training in the team vehicles was done between issues.  And it's been so rare for anyone to pick up a weapon that wasn't theirs that WF has been left to GM discretion, depending on the circumstances.

[mrinku]

I've never heard that before, nor played in a campaign where that was the case. I certainly can't recall any Hero Games Supplement I've ever read that suggested ignoring the Weapon Familiarity rules (but I could be wrong). They just don't usually come up in Superheroic Campaigns because most heroes, villains, and agents are all paying for their Equipment using CP, and therefore don't need WF for them. Even so... you can still find plenty of Champions-Universe cannon examples NPCs that purchased WFs, even for types of weapons they've purchased one or more of (such as Small Arms), just so that said characters can use normal versions of said equipment as well as their paid for versions.

 

 

Well, Champions Complete marks both Transport Familiarity and Weapons Familiarity with a "Heroic" icon, indicating that those rules and concepts are primarily intended for Heroic campaigns. As are Characteristic Maxima, Delayed Effect, Required Hands, STR Minimum, Encumbrance, Off Hand, Unequal Reach, Hit Location, Bleeding, Disabling, Impairing, Wounding and paying for normal equipment with cash (though the latter is just discussed in the "Superheroic vs Heroic" section on p.9 and doesn't have the icon per se).

 

All GMs are free to pick and choose to use any of those rules in a Superheroic campaign, but they ARE listed as Heroic rules, not universal ones.

 

4e didn't specifically flag things in this manner... but there was some discussion in the campaign building section that essentially singled out the "Heroic versions" of Champions rules (i.e. Knockdown vs Knockback, Hit Locations etc). And while WF and TF weren't on the list of decisions to make, Superheroic usually made them moot because points were paid for gear. I cannot actually recall any time having WF or TF ever mattered, in five years of active 4e play. 

 

3e Champions didn't have the rule at all - unless you imported it from one of the Heroic games.

[Cantriped]

Marking something as a "Heroic" rule is not the same as being marked as an Optional Rule*. The definition of the "Heroic Icon" can be found on CC page 8 and reads "Notes that the associated rules/concepts are intended primarily for Heroic Campaigns". That does not mean those rules automatically cease to apply, or that they are optional (except to the degree that You Can Change Anything (CC 6) makes every rule Optional).

 

*One possible exception being Delayed Effect, which is marked as Heroic, and which isn't explicitly described as an Optional Rule, but is only applicable if an optional rule is in place (effectively making it an optional rule). Otherwise, the rules marked as optional rules are assumed to be "flipped-off" by default regardless of Campaign Type. The GM has to note that he is using the Bleeding Rules, because even in the Heroic Campaigns they are suggested for they are still marked as Optional Rules.

 

In my opinion, the all of the Heroic and Superheroic Rules should be assumed to be in effect unless there are contradictory versions of the rule specific to the campaign type (or the GM explicitly says otherwise). For example, Knockback is assumed to be in effect in Superheroic Campaigns, and Knockdown is assumed to be in effect in Heroic Campaigns; you obviously cannot use both, and to use neither would be a House Rule. Conversely, there is no contradictory Superheroic version of the Weapon Familiarity Rules*, therefore I assume it is in place regardless of Campaign Type (unless the GM says otherwise).

 

*The closest equivalent is purchasing equipment with points, but that isn't a specifically Superheroic Rule (Heroic Character have to do it too sometimes); a character might or might not be required to pay for any given equipment with CP regardless of the campaign being "Heroic" or "Superheroic". Since all that changes in this regard between the two is the Threshold for being considered something that the character has to pay for, getting WF for free by buying a weapon isn't a specifically Superheroic Rule.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think it helps to consider things in terms of simulating real life items.  Take a pistol, a gun.  That's an OAF: its obviously the source of the power, easily removable, and the power requires the device.  Its also universal: anyone can pick up a gun and shoot it.  Further, nobody has to be in LOS of their gun for it to work.

 

So my take is that you don't remove line of sight requirements of the gun, not for someone else to use it.  As in, you can't use it without being in line of sight, and the power requires the target to be in LOS.

[mrinku]

In my opinion, the all of the Heroic and Superheroic Rules should be assumed to be in effect unless there are contradictory versions of the rule specific to the campaign type (or the GM explicitly says otherwise). For example, Knockback is assumed to be in effect in Superheroic Campaigns, and Knockdown is assumed to be in effect in Heroic Campaigns; you obviously cannot use both, and to use neither would be a House Rule. Conversely, there is no contradictory Superheroic version of the Weapon Familiarity Rules*, therefore I assume it is in place regardless of Campaign Type (unless the GM says otherwise).

 

 

Fair enough. I don't think we're really disagreeing that much here - all GMs can use whatever rules they like. The actual optional rules aside, it's fair to say that Hit Locations are commonly not used in traditional Superhero games, though the rule can come in handy on occasion for dramatic purposes. I've never seen Encumbrance in play, however.

[Cantriped]

This is very true. Encumbrance hardly ever gets used in Champions (honestly, it rarely gets used even in systems where it is integral to gameplay), and while I use Hit Locations in all my campaigns, I am very much in the minority in that regard.

[Chris Goodwin]

UOO Focus (6E 360) states that giving another character said focus does not negate the need for LOS. And, Steve Long himself in a recent response to me in the Rules forum said that giving another character a potion to use still requires the LOS to be maintained by the Granting character (assuming no other advantages counter this rule, such as Time Limit for example).

 

Does this mean that either:

 

1) My character gives another character a Gun, if I run around the corner breaking LOS, the receiving character cannot use the Gun?

 

2) An enemy NPC steals one of my OAF which is Universal meaning that NPC can use it, I can prevent said use just by leaving the scene or even just running around the corner so my character cannot see said NPC? That seems to defeating the purpose of Universal Foci (6E 380).

 

Thanks!

 

I'll assume you've read my response on your other thread about Constant Powers and Line of Sight.  

 

You're correct about a UOO Focus not negating the need for LOS, but Universal Focus doesn't necessarily imply UOO.  You can have a Universal Focus that is just there.  It works for you, it works for anyone and everyone who picks it up.  It's a potion, or a grenade, or a gun, or any number of other things.  

 

UOO could be something like a Flight spell that you can grant to others; you cast the spell, and poof, they can fly.  Whether it's built into a Focus or not, its need for LOS is built into however you built the UOO Power.  It falls into some sort of half-existence where it's a Power that obviously functions, but isn't really part of the character.  

 

If your conception of the Power is that you give someone a magic feather, for instance, and that lets them fly around for as long as they have the magic feather in hand, then you'd probably want to make it through a Focus (Universal or not), with UOO without the need to maintain LOS.  (Though it would be a funny joke for it to stop working when they're fifty meters up and they break LOS... funny once, at any rate, and not to the guy flying...)

 

Differing Modifiers really makes UOO Powers come into their own, IMO, which I also talk about some in the other thread, and is well explained in the 6e core books.  If you build it right, you can essentially create a fully realized Power that in theory another character could then pay points for, and they would then have the Power exactly as if they'd acquired it in any other way.  Like a magic item, in other words.  This is subject to the GM's permission, plus common sense, dramatic sense, and special effects.  You also want to be careful letting players have this, as it turns them into walking magic item (or gadget, or power) factories.  

 

(Just to add more confusion to this: there used to be a Limitation called Independent, which was a requirement in first edition Fantasy Hero for building magic items using Differing Modifiers; essentially, the points you spent on the item were permanently sunk, and if you lost the item, or it were destroyed, etc., the points went along with it.  As mentioned in your thread on Charges that Never Recover, the Independent Limitation was one of the things removed in a general purge of effects that cause sunk points; it sort of messes with the relationship between points and characters and Powers, and resulted in oddities like being able to find items or substances that included built-in Experience Points that you could use to create magic items with, without having to permanently sink your own points, which IMO sort of defeats the purpose of having to sink points anyway.  The explicit purpose of Independent was to prevent characters from becoming walking magic item factories; I've found the word "no" to be more than sufficient in doing that.)  

 

Is it getting any clearer yet?