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Detects and Power Frameworks


iamlibertarian

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I am not sure why Detects (and other sensing powers) should not be allowed in Power Frameworks? Is it simply a Game Balance issue?

 

It seems strange to me that Gil the Gadgeteer cannot have goggles (Multipower) with some Detects, Perception Enhancers, Radar, some Sense Modifiers, Maybe a Mind Scan (Scan for active minds), etc.

If it truly is just game balance, ok. Though I am not sure how that would throw off the balance either.

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If it truly is a game balance issue, I think the problem is more Variable Power Pools than Multipowers. If a Gadgeteer has a geiger counter or infra read goggles that's one thing. If they can quickly whip up a "Detect Whatever Best Short Circuits The Plot" gadget to fit whatever the circumstance, well...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

That's a palindromedary of a different color

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It's also that detects are typically not useful 'all the time'. For example, the fact that you have an alternative targeting sense only matters when you can't see the target clearly. So the fact that you can power up your alternative targeting sense only when you need it is not really any less effective than having the sense all the time.

 

For pools that you can't switch quickly (e.g. only change in given circumstances, powers take hours to change, etc), this isn't much of an issue. But for high speed swapping VPPs and multipowers, it doesn't work out so well.

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A tight concept without unlimited flexibility is generally okay. Having binoculars or some other type of enhanced sense in your utility belt isn't a big deal. But having a 20 point multipower of "enhanced senses" that you can swap between at your leisure is really effective. You get radar, sonar, detect enemy targeting, all for the cost of a slot.

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My rookie version of Superman has a significant number of points invested in Enhanced Senses (42) which are Special Powers.  One reason that Special Powers are not allowed in Frameworks is that it would piss of players that paid for those abilities outside of Frameworks.  Another reason is that If the restriction is lifted then the only reason EVERY character can't take put Special Powers in their Framework will be a special effect ruling instead of a mechanical one.

 

Example 1 - Any of the special defenses (Flash Defense, Power Defense, Mental Defense, etc..)

There already exists a mechanic to allow those abilities in a Framework - Resistant Defense (the 6e version of Force Field). 

 

Example 2 - Any Enhanced Sense (Detect is the base that many are constructed from).

Again, there already a mechanic to allow those abilities in a Framework - Clairsentience.

 

Both are more expensive ways to achieve the desired effects but are rules legal to go inside Frameworks because they are standard powers.

 

:)

HM

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One reason that Special Powers are not allowed in Frameworks is that it would piss of players that paid for those abilities outside of Frameworks.

I think that's the main point. It's not fair to Powers Man that he has to pay full price for a power that Gadget Girl gets for free in her VPP. Especially since Detects are typically only used when they're needed, and therefore don't usually "take up space" in combat.

 

Note those are mainly only problems with Cosmic VPPs, or MPs where you can switch between powers quickly. I'll often allow things like goggles and such in VPPs if they're limited on how quickly they can swap out gear.

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Worth noting that if you can still legally build the *effect* of an enhanced senses multipower or VPP by using Lockout or Custom Limit:

 

i.e. Ultra Boy can only use one of Superboy's powers at once. Mostly this would be done using a Multipower (+STR, Flight, PD/ED, Heat Vision, Superbreath etc) but you can't include the X-Ray Vision, Super-Hearing or Telescopic Vision. But by buying those and applying "Lockout - can't be used if another Power is in use" you're fine.

 

But it will be more expensive.

 

That's actually one case where I'd be willing to give permission to include it, though. If he wants to use the X-Ray Vision he has to completely drop his Invulnerability and relies on the Legion Flight Ring to get around. A similar concept that didn't happen to have a duplicate Flight power would face tougher decisions.

 

But if Gil the Gadgeteer wants a set of Multi-Goggles, that's how I'd do it. Probably build them with Unified Power as well assuming the various senses run through common hardware, so each power might have Lockout (-½), Unified (-¼) and OIF (-½) for a reasonably handy -1¼ limitation. 

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All the 'special' powers are disproportionately strong in certain situations... to the point where it becomes a no-brainer to include them.

 

Taken to an extreme...

 

8 No tricks out of you, GM: Multipower, 30-point reserve, (30 Active Points); all slots Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Side Effect only affects the environment near the character; Blast 6d6, STUN Only (+0), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/4), Area Of Effect (8m Radius; +1/2) (60 Active Points); No Range (-1/2); -1 1/2), OIF (Trilby of Power; -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; Double Bird Flip; -1/2)  

 

1f 1) I regrow my limbs when bored: Regeneration (1 BODY per Turn), Can Heal Limbs (21 Active Points)

1f 2) Nope: Mental Defense (30 points total) (30 Active Points)

1f 3) Knockback This: Knockback Resistance -30m (30 Active Points)

1f 4) LOL special attacks: Power Defense (30 points) (30 Active Points); 

1f 5) Can't Flash This: Detect A Large Class Of Things (Lifeforms) (Unusual Group), Range, Sense, Targeting (27 Active Points)

 

There we go. For 13 points someone covers most of the situational tricks the evil GM has cooked up that players hate.  Also they can get an extra attack each phase by switching slots even if they don't need to (because Side Effects can be really abusive if the GM lets the wrong player design the power that gets triggered).

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If it truly is a game balance issue, I think the problem is more Variable Power Pools than Multipowers. If a Gadgeteer has a geiger counter or infra read goggles that's one thing. If they can quickly whip up a "Detect Whatever Best Short Circuits The Plot" gadget to fit whatever the circumstance, well...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

That's a palindromedary of a different color

So as a GM you might allow a Multipower with pre-defined set of detects or other typical sensory powers, but not VPP?

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A tight concept without unlimited flexibility is generally okay. Having binoculars or some other type of enhanced sense in your utility belt isn't a big deal. But having a 20 point multipower of "enhanced senses" that you can swap between at your leisure is really effective. You get radar, sonar, detect enemy targeting, all for the cost of a slot.

 

Which is, I suppose, that other than under certain circumstances (like long range sensors for a base maybe, as suggested on 6E1 215, even advantages (like Variable Advantage I would suppose) aren't recommended. Ok, I am beginning to get it, lol.)

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I think that's the main point. It's not fair to Powers Man that he has to pay full price for a power that Gadget Girl gets for free in her VPP. Especially since Detects are typically only used when they're needed, and therefore don't usually "take up space" in combat.

 

Note those are mainly only problems with Cosmic VPPs, or MPs where you can switch between powers quickly. I'll often allow things like goggles and such in VPPs if they're limited on how quickly they can swap out gear.

I am not sure why more characters Don't take VPPs or MPs, for the 'lesser' abilities which do not affect combat, as long as it fits within the characters' basic concept. It allows for more...utility outside of combat, allowing for more...coolness factor and roleplay. Like the mystic who feeds the homeless at the local shelter by summoning food, or the Fire character who does special tricks at a magic show to raise money for some special cause. Sun Girl uses her VPP to create an "Ever-glowing Candle" as a favor for some citizen hero who saved a baby from a fire, or the like.

 

But then, I am a big believer in games, even superheroic games, that involve role play and background play in addition to the 'Brick only pounds bad guys' or 'blaster only puts holes in things at range.'

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Side Effect only affects the environment near the character; Blast 6d6, STUN Only (+0), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/4), Area Of Effect (8m Radius; +1/2) (60 Active Points); No Range (-1/2); -1 1/2), OIF (Trilby of Power; -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; Double Bird Flip; -1/2)  

 

The point is taken, but Personal Immunity would count as a defence against the side effect in my book, which is not allowed. And is not really required for a "nearby environment only" side effect in any case. For that matter Armour Piercing is also not required - Side Effect damage ignores all defences, so there's nothing to pierce. 

 

Nice tip of the trilby to Clockwork Orange, though :)

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All the 'special' powers are disproportionately strong in certain situations... to the point where it becomes a no-brainer to include them.

 

Taken to an extreme...

 

8 No tricks out of you, GM: Multipower, 30-point reserve, (30 Active Points); all slots Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Side Effect only affects the environment near the character; Blast 6d6, STUN Only (+0), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/4), Area Of Effect (8m Radius; +1/2) (60 Active Points); No Range (-1/2); -1 1/2), OIF (Trilby of Power; -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; Double Bird Flip; -1/2)  

 

1f 1) I regrow my limbs when bored: Regeneration (1 BODY per Turn), Can Heal Limbs (21 Active Points)

1f 2) Nope: Mental Defense (30 points total) (30 Active Points)

1f 3) Knockback This: Knockback Resistance -30m (30 Active Points)

1f 4) LOL special attacks: Power Defense (30 points) (30 Active Points); 

1f 5) Can't Flash This: Detect A Large Class Of Things (Lifeforms) (Unusual Group), Range, Sense, Targeting (27 Active Points)

 

There we go. For 13 points someone covers most of the situational tricks the evil GM has cooked up that players hate.  Also they can get an extra attack each phase by switching slots even if they don't need to (because Side Effects can be really abusive if the GM lets the wrong player design the power that gets triggered).

 

I take your point. But one counterbalancing factor is that they are all effectively 'locked-out' from each other, and there is no way to know which one of those evil tricks the GM will throw at the character at any one time. And if there are multiple enemies at the moment, if that MP is the best that the character can do, s/he won't survive the first combat, no matter how powerful each slot is.

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I am not sure why more characters Don't take VPPs or MPs, for the 'lesser' abilities which do not affect combat, as long as it fits within the characters' basic concept. It allows for more...utility outside of combat, allowing for more...coolness factor and roleplay. Like the mystic who feeds the homeless at the local shelter by summoning food, or the Fire character who does special tricks at a magic show to raise money for some special cause.

 

 

Those sort of tricks are usually handled as Special Effects use. Per CC p7: "sometimes a Game Element (particularly a Power) receives minor benefits and drawbacks because of it's Special Effects. These minor modifiers don't change the cost. For example,a character with Fire powers can help keep his friends warm if they're trapped in a feezer."

 

In your examples, the Special Effects just get used as a bit of colour for what the characters are actually doing (helping serve at a homeless shelter and helping to entertain at a fundraiser).  Good examples, though.

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I take your point. But one counterbalancing factor is that they are all effectively 'locked-out' from each other, and there is no way to know which one of those evil tricks the GM will throw at the character at any one time. And if there are multiple enemies at the moment, if that MP is the best that the character can do, s/he won't survive the first combat, no matter how powerful each slot is.

 

Silly example aside such a GM would only be proving the munchkin right and they'd come back with 

 

No Tricks out of you 2, Munchkin boogaloo, all slots Increased Endurance Cost (x10 END; -4), Side Effects (Side Effect only affects the environment near the character; 12d6 Blast, Stun Only; -3/4), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), OIF (Trilby of Power; -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; Double Bird Flip; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Incantations ("I'm the best around, nobody's ever gonna put me down!"; -1/4)

 

Those take a 30 AP power down to 4 RC so instead of 13 they pay 20 and get all the benefits all the time.

 

Once again, the GM would have to be asleep at the wheel but it's actually legal, unlike the MP.

 

The ability to switch to any of those powers in an otherwise 'non-combat' cheap multipower would be incredibly advantageous and what should be the core of a character concept (the lifeform detect, for example), becomes a devalued afterthought.

 

(Also the GM wins all arms races. His enemies are built on unlimited points.  An AoE Accurate 100d6 Affects Desolid Blat should shut down the Trilby of Power nicely - but like all arms races both sides lose if that happens).

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The ability to switch to any of those powers in an otherwise 'non-combat' cheap multipower would be incredibly advantageous and what should be the core of a character concept (the lifeform detect, for example), becomes a devalued afterthought.

 

(Also the GM wins all arms races. His enemies are built on unlimited points.  An AoE Accurate 100d6 Affects Desolid Blat should shut down the Trilby of Power nicely - but like all arms races both sides lose if that happens).

 

While you may be technically correct, it almost sounds like merely wanting to be a Utility Character, as opposed to being a Heavy Hitter, in and of itself, is a game destroying imbalance. Doesn't matter which game system, which universe, which GM, etc, I like playing utility characters, as do many people. Let someone else play the Brick, and someone else play the Blaster, and another the Alien Master Mind Controller. I am happy to have a lower power level but be able to do many things to support the other characters, and to role play off of in the "community."

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(Also the GM wins all arms races. His enemies are built on unlimited points.  An AoE Accurate 100d6 Affects Desolid Blat should shut down the Trilby of Power nicely - but like all arms races both sides lose if that happens).

QFT. The whole concept of trying to be more powerful than The Bad Guys comes from a false understanding of how tabletop RPGs work. With any halfway-competent GM, the villains are as powerful as they need to be, no more, no less. Making tougher PCs just means the GM has to throw tougher villains at you.

 

Edit: That's not to say that all combats have to be equally-balanced. Some villains may be much tougher than the PCs, or much weaker, whichever fits the needs of the story.

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Indeed. "I have just the Power we need for this situation" is as valid and classic a hero and villain type as the brick, energy projector, mentalist, etc. Such characters just need to be limited in other ways. They tend not to be heavy hitters; or they do not have *every* power that might be useful, all at once, so they must plan ahead and make tactical trade-offs.

 

For me, the glory and burden of the Hero System is that, more than most systems, it is purely descriptive. It's the GM's job to decide what is actually possible within a setting; whatever you choose, the Hero System can probably describe it.

 

The system describes game-breaking or story-breaking Powers as readily as anything else. And even while staying within the current rules as written, it's still not difficult to come up with such Powers. I gave up trying to tweak the rules years ago. Instead, I see it as the GM's job to disallow such Powers, with no more justification needed than plot-breaking. Everyone in my gaming group is mature enough to accept this.

 

So, I allow Detects, defenses, and various other Special Powers in frameworks. Even in VPPs. But I limit the frameworks in other ways so that characters still make trade-offs. For instance, the PC Anunit is a god. As part of her divinity, she can scribe cuneiform tablets for just about any magical effect she wants. But -- it's only a 20-point VPP; she can have only one tablet at a time, for one Power at a time; it takes at least a Turn to scribe a new tablet; and she can only produce magical effects that can be described in low-tech terms. It gives her chances to be awesome, such as searching New York City for a villain by searching for the antique katana he stole (Detect Swords, Ranged, Discriminatory, Telescopic; for 6e you might need Penetrative as well), but success is still not instantaneous or assured. Likewise, Anunit can be one of the few entities in the world able to resist the awesome mental powers of the super-psychic Contessa by giving herself another 20 points of Mental Defense... but the other PCs are still sitting ducks. Don't miss next issue: "Anunit Stands Alone!"

 

(Though I admit, after running two lengthy Super-Mage campaigns, I suspect my ideas of what's game-breaking are a bit different than those of most gamers.)

 

Dean Shomshak

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While you may be technically correct, it almost sounds like merely wanting to be a Utility Character, as opposed to being a Heavy Hitter, in and of itself, is a game destroying imbalance. Doesn't matter which game system, which universe, which GM, etc, I like playing utility characters, as do many people. Let someone else play the Brick, and someone else play the Blaster, and another the Alien Master Mind Controller. I am happy to have a lower power level but be able to do many things to support the other characters, and to role play off of in the "community."

 

Might be a question of what you consider "Utility." For example,

 

 

All the 'special' powers are disproportionately strong in certain situations... to the point where it becomes a no-brainer to include them.

 

Taken to an extreme...

 

8 No tricks out of you, GM: Multipower, 30-point reserve, (30 Active Points); all slots Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Side Effect only affects the environment near the character; Blast 6d6, STUN Only (+0), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/4), Area Of Effect (8m Radius; +1/2) (60 Active Points); No Range (-1/2); -1 1/2), OIF (Trilby of Power; -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; Double Bird Flip; -1/2)  

 

1f 1) I regrow my limbs when bored: Regeneration (1 BODY per Turn), Can Heal Limbs (21 Active Points)

1f 2) Nope: Mental Defense (30 points total) (30 Active Points)

1f 3) Knockback This: Knockback Resistance -30m (30 Active Points)

1f 4) LOL special attacks: Power Defense (30 points) (30 Active Points); 

1f 5) Can't Flash This: Detect A Large Class Of Things (Lifeforms) (Unusual Group), Range, Sense, Targeting (27 Active Points)

 

There we go. For 13 points someone covers most of the situational tricks the evil GM has cooked up that players hate.  Also they can get an extra attack each phase by switching slots even if they don't need to (because Side Effects can be really abusive if the GM lets the wrong player design the power that gets triggered).

Would you call the above a Utility Multipower?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suspects it's a Futility Multipower

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The trick with the Hero System is knowing when to break the rules. What is dangerous as hell in one game may be perfectly fine in another. The game seems to presume some kind of "default" campaign where all powers are available and players can take whatever they want. In a game where you can't buy other senses, Flash should probably be more expensive. The balance only exists as long as all the pieces are there.

 

I had an Iron Man type character once, with a VPP based on rewiring his suit to do whatever he needed. The GM didn't blink and I could whip out custom enhanced senses whenever I needed them. It was very useful, but it wasn't unbalancing. It helped to move the plot along. Without that ability, the rest of the group would have been left standing around, scratching their heads. So while it might have made the guy who paid full price for a single enhanced sense mad, since we didn't actually have anyone like that in the game, it wasn't an issue.

 

If this post doesn't make much sense, it's because my attention is split. I'm watching Krull right now. I forgot how awesome this movie is.

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Might be a question of what you consider "Utility." For example,

 

 

 

Would you call the above a Utility Multipower?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suspects it's a Futility Multipower

 

No, that is still "combat stuff."

 

So, just for example (in my Very tired, ready for bed state) I will (without including advantages, limitations, or other math related things) make a small example of a multipower I would see as 'utility' (though the effect listed in this grouping doesn't at this moment have anything tying them together (as I don't have the brain power for it).

 

1) Detect Magick

2) Higher Powered Mind Scan for tracking down just about anyone, but with enough limitations to make it non-combat worthy

3) Sure, a few Aids for in combat, Buffing others but not terribly so or making this character a combat ghod

4) Fog Cloud to help the team escape combat

5) Summon food (for when characters are stuck somewhere without

6) Postcognition to gain knowledge about something

7) Combo: Minor Illusion + Disguise Skill (which yes, I *personally* would allow a Skill in a VPP in this kind of case)

8) EMP Burst (Some NND Drain anything electronic in an Area, with the defense being some sort of EMP Shielding (maybe some sort of electronic Flash Defense)

9) Mollify Angry Crowd (some AE Mental Transform that just slightly nudges a crowd into a better mood)

10) Thicker Wallet Transform $1 to $100 (character is already stinking rich - but doesn't carry cash) Nice way to reward good citizens for doing good things

11) 4-Leaf Clover (good luck tokens 1 charge never recovers - again given as a reward to any good person who is not a teammate)

12) Any kind of Naked Advantage that benefits *teammates* not the character

13) Heavy Weapon (Density increase on handheld or smaller items. Sure, great combat helper, but isn't a "Heavy Hitter" power

14) Rooted - Knockback Resistance for teammates

15) Brickmaker - Hardened and Resistant defenses for teammates

16) Pearly Gates - TransD gate to one of the Heavens

17) Speak with the Dead - Mind Scan/Mind Link combo

18) Summon Alarm Spirit - A spirit with Danger Sense whom is allied with the party, and can communicate with them an impending sense of danger

19) Potion of Leaping - just what it says

20) Ring of Water Breathing

21) Shield of Missile Deflection - Cast on a shield who uses a shield of course

 

And so on ad nauseum. These are all utility to me. Even the combat items are Useful for a team, but something other than 20D6 or more in just 3 powers. 

 

Now lets look at VPPs instead. If a character has a 100+100 Magic VPP for example. That's 150 points. The key is the max 100 Active Points and only 100 pts RC worth at a time. A very "useful" or utility character, but not a heavy hitter. Compare this to:

 

Arthur Alchemist. Can you imagine 150 points in power which can do for an Alchemist, who can take a Ton of limitations and give the potions triggers and/or time limits, and an alchemy built robe of many pockets (like little bags of holding)? One could make Heaving Hitting potions, and Lots of different types of them. No framework needed to be both heavy hitting And huge on the variety.

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That's ultimately what GMs are for:  If nobody else is going to take a Detect Magic and the detect was pretty limited (such as Detect Magic) I, personally, would allow it in a pool.  If you were a mage who wanted to provide 'spell defense' (Power Defense to your team) and most of the campaign wasn't going to feature Power Defense targeting attacks I'd probably allow that in a pool too - rather than forcing a character to have 20 to 30 points tied up on something they're probably not going to use every adventure - let alone session.

 
(Though if they did take it outside a pool I'd make sure to include power defense attacks more often than I originally planned so they get use out of it.  This has actually recently happened - with my players going 'Wow, it's a good thing you took that power or we'd be getting creamed" ... unsuspecting that the encounters were designed as a reaction to the purchase of the power.)
 
 
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