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Fall down go boom


Sean Waters

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So I was looking at the System Quirks thread and Das Broot posted this:

 

HERO's a great system but it definitely has some quirks that people find amusing, distracting, or annoying.

 

One of mine is falling damage vs move-through damage.

 

HERO assigns a max falling speed (terminal velocity) of 60 meters per segment for 30d6 damage. Oof.

 

The thing is... a move through attack that impacted at 60 meters per segment (ie: a character using  a movement power, a car, etc) inflicts strength + v/6.  So a car with a 'str' of 20 inflicts 14d6 if it moves 60 before hitting you.

 

That's half the damage of striking the ground after falling the same distance in the segment.

 

Why? What makes falling so much more dangerous than being hit by a car travelling at the same distance in that segment? Or a hero strong enough to lift the Statue of Liberty (70) with the same action (14d6 + 10d6 = 24d6)?

 

What's yours?

 

(Open for discussion of anyone's specific quirk as well as adding your own.)

 

First off, 30d6 has always felt way too high: if you work out the energy of a falling body and compare that to the energy of other attacks of similar energy a terminal velocity fall should do 12 or 13DCs, which seems better (that is 55 to 90 m/s).

 

So, here is a thing though.

 

A car moving at 60m per segment moves at 720m per turn.  If the car is SPD 3 it does more move through damage than the same car at SPD 4, which makes no external sense.  A 30 STR car does 6+30 DCs at SPD 4 and 6+40 at SPD 3.

 

I think not.  Velocity for the purposes of adding damage should be calculated for the per segment move (i.e. Move * Spd / 12).  We should probably also be buying move differently too, but that is a discussion for elsewhere.

 

Also velocity adds an an arithmetic scale, so you double velocity from 30 to 60, you add 5DCs, whereas if you double STR from 30, you wind up with 35 STR and that only adds 1DC.

 

It is a mite more complicated because kinetic energy is 1/2 mass times velocity squared, and we can't be using move per phase, as a phase is not a set time and it makes no sense that someone with a higher SPD does less damage with a move through than someone with a lower SPD but the same velocity, so we have to calculate it to metres/second (or segment).  Anyway, the table looks like this for a 100kg (10 STR object).  Look up the highest velocity number that is equal to or less than your velocity and read over a column for damage.  For heavier objects subtract 2DCs and add the STR/5 (or STR required to lift the mass/5).

 

Velocity           DCs    

1                      1         

2                      3         

3                      4         

4                      5         

6                      6         

8                      7         

15                    8         

20                    9         

25                    10       

35                    11       

50                    12        Low terminal velocity (54m/s)

65                    13        Dive terminal velocity (90m/s)

95                    14       

130                  15       

185                  16       

260                  17        Speed of sound (343m/s)

370                  18       

515                  19       

730                  20       

1025                21        

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The optional Velocity Factor rules already cover this. Falling damage makes sense compared to move through damage when the "0" knock back rule is considered.

 

HM

 

Yeah, but they don't really, because they do not address the plethora of problems that moving in Hero has created for itself.  Witness the glory of a genuine alternative:

 

Movement is a bit of an odd duck in Hero because of the weird interaction with the SPD table and the way we use it to add damage for velocity based attacks.  Also have you noticed that it is pretty difficult to fly really fast without using megascale?

 

Movement is used for getting between adventure locations (which is usually not something we need to worry too much about), and positioning in combat and doing damage in combat (which we do)

 

So what if we did this:

 

1.     You buy your move in damage dice.

2.     Each dice of damage has a maximum move per segment associated with it.

3.     Each segment you have a phase you can use your movement, but unless you have a SPD of 12 you will not be able to move on every segment, so will not reach your full potential speed, at least in combat: when moving non-combat you can travel at

4.     That’s it.  Everything else can stay the same, like non-combat movement and such.

 

This means there is still a bit of an odd interaction with SPD as, for the same cost, high SPD characters can move further in combat, but I see that as one of the advantages of having high SPD.

 

Cost     DCs     Range             Band example

5          (-1)      1          1          Slow walk

10        1          2          2          Brisk walk

15        2          3          3          Jogging

20        3          4          5          5 minute mile

25        4          6          7          4 minute mile

30        5          8          11        3 minute mile

35        6          12        15        Fastest human sprinter

40        7          16        22        Greyhound

45        8          23        31        Swordfish

50        9          32        45        Cheetah

55        10        46        63        Swift

60        11        64        90        Porsche 911 Turbo

65        12        91        127      Diving falcon

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I'd say it was, for a given value of reality: unless the rules of a game simulate a recognisable reality, it is just an abstract, and lots of the rules in Hero are clearly there to specifically simulate our reality but with a heroic or superheroic narrative overlay.

 

Part of doing that successfully is internal consistency, and part of it is meeting expectations.  There is always going to be a level of abstraction - this is a game, not Unified Field theory - but it is also not Holy Writ and just because it has always been done that way until now does not mean it should continue to be.

 

That is the joy of these boards - we can explore alternatives to established practice in a safe environment where we don't have to worry that the exchange of ideas is going to have a deleterious effect on the game or the enjoyment of it.  Let's face it: 7e is not on the horizon and some of the rules we are using are old.  When Hero started out, it was Champions and we were building stuff with a lot less points.  The internal reality of the game has changed over time and that makes it worth examining some of the original assumptions and systems.

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I disagree; it is not and never will be a reality simulation but it has always worked within a framework of realism with the addition of fantastic elements.  One of the things that first attracted me to Champions was the way that it handled damage: Stun, stunning, Body, END - not elements that are necessarily comic/superhero - but which produced the feel of real.

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1.     You buy your move in damage dice.

2.     Each dice of damage has a maximum move per segment associated with it.

3.     Each segment you have a phase you can use your movement, but unless you have a SPD of 12 you will not be able to move on every segment, so will not reach your full potential speed, at least in combat: when moving non-combat you can travel at

4.     That’s it.  Everything else can stay the same, like non-combat movement and such.

 

This means there is still a bit of an odd interaction with SPD as, for the same cost, high SPD characters can move further in combat, but I see that as one of the advantages of having high SPD.

 

Cost     DCs     Range             Band example

5          (-1)      1          1          Slow walk

10        1          2          2          Brisk walk

15        2          3          3          Jogging

20        3          4          5          5 minute mile

25        4          6          7          4 minute mile

30        5          8          11        3 minute mile

35        6          12        15        Fastest human sprinter

40        7          16        22        Greyhound

45        8          23        31        Swordfish

50        9          32        45        Cheetah

55        10        46        63        Swift

60        11        64        90        Porsche 911 Turbo

65        12        91        127      Diving falcon

I don't understand. :-(

 

What is the difference in the last two columns, are those numbers the metres moved that segment? You say "each segment you have a phase you can use your movement" but confuse that by saying that not everyone will be able to move every segment.

 

I am presuming that you mean you will be able to use your movement once in each of your "action" phases? So SPD 4 will get to move 4 times per turn? That still does not explain (to me) why you can't reach your full potential speed...and that sentence seems to be missing something at the end...

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I don't understand. :-(

What is the difference in the last two columns, are those numbers the metres moved that segment? You say "each segment you have a phase you can use your movement" but confuse that by saying that not everyone will be able to move every segment.

I am presuming that you mean you will be able to use your movement once in each of your "action" phases? So SPD 4 will get to move 4 times per turn? That still does not explain (to me) why you can't reach your full potential speed...and that sentence seems to be missing something at the end...

My understanding only so take with a bucket load of salt.

 

The last two columns are a range of meters moved by segment. So you could buy for 50 points of Move, giving you a max speed of 45 meters per segment but if in a given phase you were attacking while moving at 13m/s, your move would provide 6 DC.

Out of combat, you can use your move each segment. In combat you can only use your move on your phases.

 

I'd be curious to compare that with the Velocity Factor optional rule.

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IT looks like it's an attempt to let speedsers 'go fast' without them breaking the DC caps with their velocity. It would probably also make things like 'flying fast' cheaper, without having to resort to the hack of megascale movement.

 

When the amount of extra damage you can deliver with your movement is the part that costs points, 'moving very fast' can be made much cheaper.

 

Example problem:

The 'combat speed' or a jet fighter is something between, say mach .75 0~925 km/h) and mach 1.5 (~1850 km/h). If we assume the jet is speed 4, and is making a full move with every action, that means the jet would need between 775m and 1550 m of flight, to be able to move that fast with non-combat movement. And that's 775/6 = 129 extra dice when you run into something (like the Earth), which goes boom...

 

If we buy the jet up to speed 12, and make some of that speed 'only for movement' then it only needs a non-combat movement to start at around 257m which is still around 43 extra damage classes.

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No. It was intended to simulate comic book/superhero reality. It wasn't until several years later that more normal or heroic cinema reality was added.

 

Which is where I feel Hero's shortcomings are fully realized.  When you play a Heroic level game, the fact that the system was designed to simulate comic book reality is extremely noticeable.

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Which is where I feel Hero's shortcomings are fully realized.  When you play a Heroic level game, the fact that the system was designed to simulate comic book reality is extremely noticeable.

 

Had they planned for this and then scaled upwards for supers, the whole game design would have been entirely different.

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OK, so Hero is, or started out, as Greywind said, as a system to play superheroes.  Now I don't know about your games but if a character was SPD 6 and had a move of 60m that would be very fast indeed, and yet that is not even 70mph.  With a move through the hero can do an extra 10 dice of damage using the normal rules.

 

 

A fast moving object, say a crashing jet, might be moving at (say) Mach 1 and have a SPD of 4.  It would have a move of 1020 and therefore do 340 extra dice of velocity damage.  Hmm.

 

 

That is a lot of damage.  If you had enough STR to do that damage, you would be able to lift, well, everything: the mass of the observable universe is about 10 to the 53 and you could lift 10 to the 103.  For those of you who get confused over powers, 10 to the 54 would be 10 times the mass of the observable universe (we are including dark matter and energy).  10 to the 103 is, well, it is not realistically describable.

 

 

It is worth noting that a jet weighs a lot: an F14 Tomcat weighs over 18000kg, but 18000kg only gives it an extra 9 or 10 DCs of damage: if could be a 50kg weight and the damage from mass would still pale into insignificance next to the damage from velocity. 

 

 

There is a disconnect there.

 

 

The optional Velocity Factor rules do a pretty good job of associating damage with the (real world) energy of movement.  We have a pretty special association here because, if we assume that a 2DC punch is 100 Joules (about the same as a 2kg mass being dropped on you from 10m), the amount of energy that is required for a given DC, using the progression in the STR table, is the same as you can lift for that value of STR.  Cool, huh?

 

 

The formula for kinetic energy is ½ mass x velocity squared.  So for an object of 2kg mass (halves to 1) times a velocity of 10m (squared to 100) we get 100 joules of energy, which is 2DCs of damage.  Now, an object with no mass would never have kinetic energy (according to your basic Newtonian physics) because it has no mass, but we can assume that as a 100kg object requires 10 STR (which does 2DCs of damage) to lift, we can take off 2DCs from our velocity energy/damage calculation to get a theoretical base damage for a given velocity.

 

 

There is still a problem though because we are then using different scales: if we calculate added damage this way then we mitigate the jet plane problem (now it does an extra 11 dice damage for travelling at Mach 1) but we still have the problem that sort of velocity is impossible for heroes in combat, and there are any number of examples in the comics of characters who move REALLY fast in combat.

 

 

Here is the new, improved table, which also compares the optional rule Velocity Factor:

 

 

STR     DCs     Energy m/turn MPH VF comparison

 

-5         -1         12.5     12        2          9

 

0          0          25        17        3          13

 

5          1          50        24        5          17

 

10        2          100      34        6          49

 

15        3          200      48        9          65

 

20        4          400      68        13        99

 

25        5          800      96        18        129

 

30        6          1600    136      25        193

 

35        7          3200    192      36        257

 

40        8          6400    272      51        385

 

45        9          12800  384      72        501

 

50        10        25600  543      101      751

 

So m/turn is my calculated minimum velocity in metres per turn (12 seconds) and the VF comparison is VF calculation for the same amount of added damage.  You will see that they are close, but not quite the same.  This shows the minimum move to qualify for the relevant DC boost.

 

The numbers look a right mess, neg?  However, if you look, every other DC is a predictable number on my calculations: 1 DC is 24, 3 is 48, 5 is 96 and so on.  If you work this out on a ‘per segment basis, it means that a move of 2m/s gives you +1DC from velocity, 4m/s gives you +3 DC, 8m/s gives you 5DC and so on.

 

If we put that in table form it looks much cleaner:

 

m/s     +DC

 

2          1

 

4          3            

 

8          5     

 

16        7     

 

32        9     

 

I would propose this: you don’t buy move in the linear fashion we have been, you buy it in relation to how much added damage you want to do with it.  This gives you a move in m/s (metres per second, or metres per segment – same thing).

 

For interim DCs a reasonable rule of thumb is move for previous DC x 1.  If is not completely accurate, but close and gives a round figure, so for 6DCs 8m/s x 1.5 = 12m/s.

 

You then cost it per DC.  I would probably go for 6 points per level of move, which means you spend 60 points on move to get +10DC which is the same as the costing in the present system.

 

This allows for a much more superheroic feel to combat.  This can easily be extended to throwing and KB too.

 

There are other issues but this post is too long as it is…

 

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Currently working out velocity means building SPD into the system.

 

If you go with Sean's thoughts then you would work out velocity in terms of move per turn and your move per phase would be (move per turn)/SPD.

 

To me that is no more complex mathematically than we have and allows a more consistent approach with regard to movement.

 

It makes movement SPD independent (which may seem counter-intuitive) which allows a more consistent, system level approach to what velocity means in damage terms.

 

 

Doc

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I think you explained it better than I did ;)

 

The difference between this treatment and Velocity Factor is that it changes how fast you can move without necessarily changing the game effects of movement.

 

- There are complications though, as always.  The range on most attack powers is 10m x base points.  At higher (but still affordable) levels of movement getting out of range is a real possibility.

- If you want to have realism, then you want to use acceleration and deceleration: Hero allows you to accelerate at 5m per metre so, technically, if you do have a move of 60m you need at least 12 metres run up to  get there (and, if you wanted to accelerate from zero and finish at zero you should not be doing your full move: again using 60m as an example, for the first and last 12m of the move you only average half your maximum velocity so should not actually move more than 48m.  We wisely ignore this most of the time.  With faster moves we might want to consider how far someone has to move to get to combat velocity: indoors finding a 12m long room might not happen that often.

I would propose allowing people to buy extra acceleration/deceleration at 1 point per 1m (so for 10 points you could accelerate at 15m per metre and get to your full combat move in the above example in 4 metres.

- This would undermine Non-Combat moves and (to an extent) Megascale

- We'd need to think about the CV modifiers for move attacks.

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The problem is that you'd need to rework the entire system to make it actually function properly.  Hero has elements of both an exponential and a linear system.  In practice, it plays pretty well.  When you start looking at edge cases, you get weird conflicts where different rules apply and things get out of hand quickly.  This is one of them.

 

As I see it, simulating real physics should not be a high priority.  We're talking about a game designed to feature superpowers -- real physics result in a lot of dead people and that doesn't fit the intended genre.  Batman and Superman need to be able to fight crime together without Batman dying.  I also don't think it's important that we perfectly mirror real acceleration and deceleration (as Sean Waters points out above).  That adds a lot of complexity to gameplay for no real purpose.  If people thought Hero was a difficult system to learn before, wait until they see that they see the Movement Acceleration Chart (pg 872).

 

Above all, the game system should be focused on providing a fun and enjoyable play experience.  Anything that takes away from that needs to go.  Making the game scale properly with physics, in anything more than a vague, general way, is much lower down the list.

 

 

 

 

Rather than completely re-working the movement and velocity rules (segmented movement is a pain in the ass, and drags down gameplay), I think a much better workaround would be to develop a rule for noncombat and/or megascaled movement and how it applies to damage.  Because that's really what is causing outrageous amounts of damage in these theoretical examples.

 

Personally, I'd just say that noncombat movement drops your OCV to crap, and each multiple adds 2D6 to movement damage.  So a guy with 30" of Flight (+10D6 to move-throughs) would do +12D6 if he used his standard x2 noncombat move.  If he had x4 noncom, he'd do +14D6.  If he had x8, he'd do +16D6 at full speed.  A guy with x250 noncombat would do +10D6 for the combat movement, +16D6 for the multiples, so Str+26D6 (you're also looking at a guy who traveled 9 miles in one phase).

 

The default would be that megascaled movement is effectively inertia-less.  5" megascale x1000 km will let you cross the United States in a single phase, but it basically adds nothing to your damage, because it's purely a "scene change" type effect.  Real world vehicles wouldn't have megascale movement (even if an official build lists it as having it).  It's a physics-defying type of movement, and if a real world vehicle is listed as having it, understand that's just game shorthand for giving you something close to its max speed.

 

I'd also limit the damage that vehicles can do in a move-by or move-through, probably something to do with their max Body + Def.  It isn't enough that they carry that much energy, they have to be able to transfer it effectively to the target.

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Good points and well worth talking about.  One of my reasons for doing this little thought experiment is because I think that there are perceptual conflicts because, when Champions came out the system that was used was not really based on guiding principles but as a series of solutions for whatever issues and problems arose as the system was built - IIRC Martial Arts in Champions 1e was nothing more than a damage multiplier for your STR.

 

You can't really build characters like Flash or Quicksilver in Hero.  No, let me clarify that.  You can, obviously, you just can't make them do some of the cool stuff from the comics, not without some pretty weird patches: EDM to the SpeedZone anyone?

 

The system I am proposing actually will not make a huge amount of difference to day to day gameplay, even though it will require a few changes to how we do some things:   If you spend 30 points on Flight, for example, you can fly 30m per phase under the current system.  If you spend 30 points on flight in the proposed system you can fly 191m per turn.  In both cases you would get extra damage from a move through of 30/6 = 5DC under the old system and the same under the proposed one.

 

You would be moving a bit faster, unless your SPD is over 7, in which case you would actually be moving slower.

 

If you spend 60 points under the old system, 60m per phase and under the proposed system up to 1435m per turn, again both doing 12 DC of damage.  The new system is pulling away here: you'd need SPD 24 to go that quick under the old system at 60m/phase.

 

What it means is that for a lot of characters there would be little substantial change in their move distance or damage from moving.  It is somewhat complicated when integrating with the SPD system: effectively you would have to divide your move per turn by your SPD, but you would only need to do that at character creation.

 

I've never really understood non-combat movement or Megascale movement except as a way of addressing the question why you can not build a character that runs at Mach 1 (or more!).

 

Under this system you can move at lightspeed, in combat, for 240 points.  Lot of points, lot of speed.

 

Another thing, I'm not sure why the OCV penalty for move through is -V/10.  As an example, if there is someone in the road and I drive at them at 15mph, which will be within combat velocity, even for my car, in reality I have a much worse chance of hitting them than if I drive at them at 100mph, which is certainly non-combat speed.  Hero reverses that: noncombat my OCV starts at zero and 100mph with my (at best) 3 SPD which would apply a -17 OCV modifier.  It should be nigh impossible to ever run anyone over.

 

That needs looking at.

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So here's my current version of Kid Flash (circa 1983 New Teen Titans series).  This is what I'll be using if I ever get around to running that pure Pre-Crisis DC campaign I keep thinking about.  5th edition, might be a house rule or two included on this build (it isn't legal to Link two multipowers together, but that's how I wanted to do it for various reasons, and I'd be the GM in this game, so I say it's okay).

 

 


Kid Flash

500 points

 

 

Str  15

Dex 35

Con 23

Body 14

Int 18

Ego 14

Pre 15

Com 14

 

PD 8  (23/15r total)

ED 8  (23/15r total)

Spd 8

Rec 15

End 100

Stun 38

 

 

Power skill 13-

 

Breakfall 16-

Deduction 13-

Navigation 13-

Paramedics 13-

 

Scientist

Biology 11-

Chemistry 11-

Physics 11-

Superspeed physics 11-

 

 

Lightning calculator

Speed reading

Rapid healing

9/9 Combat Luck

 

 

Multipower 112 points "Superspeed", all slots Only in Contact with a Surface (-1/4)

u--35" Flight, Position Shift, No Turn Mode, 1/2 End

u--5" Flight, No Turn Mode, Megascale 1" = 10,000 km, can be scaled down

 

6/6 Force Field, "Frictionless Force Field", costs end only to activate (+1/4)

 

Multipower 100 points "Superspeed tricks", all slots Linked to Flight

u-- 60 Str TK, affects porous "Air control"

u--11D6 Energy Blast, x2 KB  "Air control"

u--26D6 Dispel, any fire power one at a time (+1/4)  "Air control"

u--6D6 Drain vs Dex, "superspeed spin"

u--Missile Deflection (up to bullets), plus Reflect at any target

u--+7D6 Hand Attack, Autofire x5 "superspeed punches"

u--+7D6 Hand Attack, Area Effect Selective, increased radius 8" "superspeed punches"

u--5D6 Entangle, no range "wrap up"

u--Desolidification "vibrational control"

u--XD Movement, related dimensions, x5 End, Extra time 1 turn "travel to Earth 2"

u--XD Movement, any point in time, x5 End, 11- Activation roll, requires GM approval  "time travel"

 

He can hit 21 1/2 D6 on a move-through, if he uses his "superspeed punch" Hand Attack along with his 35" of Flight.  That lets him hit really damn hard for most campaigns.  He won't atomize supervillains, but the Flash generally doesn't do that anyway.  He might need some OCV levels to hit with his move-through (he'd only have a 5 OCV after penalties), but honestly he'd probably be hitting people who were at 1/2 DCV if he moved that far and hit them.  And he doesn't really do it very often at all in this particular series.  For noncombat purposes, with 50,000 km of megascale movement, he can make it anywhere on Earth in one phase.

 

He can do 10D6 Autofire punches, or 10D6 Area Effect Selective punches (I know that the current rules want you to pro-rate your Str when using advantaged hand attacks, but at one point in 5th the rule was that you could apply Active Points of Str equal to the Base Cost of your Hand Attack and get the advantages for free, and this is the rule our group has been using for over a decade).  He can do just about everything Kid Flash in the comics can do.  I read through the first 40 issues of the New Teen Titans to make sure I got everything.  I think this represents him pretty well.

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Movement purchased per phase has a lot of things going for it.

 

1)  It's what people are used to in games.  Even though a Hero "turn" is made up of multiple phases, the half-move plus attack action of a phase meshes with the most popular game systems out there.  It's like D&D's old "round" vs "turn" nomenclature.  You call one thing a turn, but people think of the shorter time period as being an actual turn (as in, "now it's your turn").

 

2)  It avoids one extra step of math in character creation (dividing your total movement by your number of phases).

 

3)  The benefit of switching is questionable.  While it better matches up a character's real world movement rate with their move-through damage, those aren't particularly pressing issues with the game.  Everyone who has played for a while is aware of the issue, and it bugs some people, but in actual gameplay it's mostly an academic exercise.

 

 

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm just saying that I don't think implementing it at this stage in the game is particularly beneficial.

 

 

 

As far as hitting people with your car goes, your vehicle should probably be treated as an area effect: hex attack.  You can't miss the hex in front of you, so you automatically hit it.  If that guy is standing in it, he's hit.  It just depends if he makes his Dive For Cover roll by enough.  Realistically, it's easy to avoid being hit by a car, as long as you make your Perception roll and realize you're going to get hit if you don't move.  Cars are hard to maneuver at 100+ mph.  The difficulty in avoiding being hit is not in the driver being able to swerve and hit you, it's in realizing that you're a target.  At 100 mph, the guy is starting his movement phase outside of your normal field of traffic awareness.

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Nice!

 

Here is a link to my 6e rookie version of Barry Allen (The Flash).

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?795840-HERO6E-My-rookie-JLA-builds&p=20707008#post20707008

 

As built he addresses most if not all of the issues mentioned without the need for custom rules and he CAN run at 100mph without using NCM/Megascale and can double that combat velocity if using the first slot in his Framework.

 

HM

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