More Charges that Never Recover confusion

[iamlibertarian]

Fantasy Hero Complete 244: 

 

After much discussion in another thread, I was convinced that once a charge which never recovers has been used, there is no way in heaven and earth that charge could ever exist again.

The scroll description and example given shows scrolls created as a Multipower, where the charges on the scroll Never Recover. But the description right above that scroll states:

 

"It also causes the spell to erase itself from the scroll. Creating a new scroll takes time and the proper materials."

 

What this says to me is that charges which never recover do not just, 'show up again the next day Automatically', but that they can be 'recast or recreated' with time and effort.

Re-Charge vs re-Cover: With this rule from FHC, it makes me think in terms of that original fantasy game system: Earlier versions would have, say, a Staff of Fireballs which could never recover. And that systems staves now recover some charges every day. But even the earlier ones which did not recover, with the right skills/knowledges/powers (spell casting), said staves could be re-Charged, as opposed to re-Covered.

Summary:

 

1) Without specific limitations, charges Recover naturally (typically a day according to the rules). Priests get them back next day, Gadgets take time to naturally recharge, Knife wielders take time to go back to base and get more knives, etc.

 

2) Recoverable Charges limitation: Sweep the field after combat to find those knives or arrows, but once done, ready for the next combat. Priest sits and prays for an hour. Mage studies his spellbook for an hour. Gadgeteer plugs his blasters into his portable charger for an hour, etc.

3) Never recover: 6E1 (372) "Charges which Never Recover are primarily intended for intriguing power constructs with a small number

of Charges, like a one-time-use magic scroll."  FHC 244: "It also causes the spell to erase itself from the scroll. Creating a new scroll takes time and the proper materials." WITH the example of Never Recover spells being recreateable, and being in a Multipower no less.

It is the CHARGE which is not recoverable (does not automatically re-happen). But the spell/power/etc. can be re-cast/re-created, with time and effort, like writing a new scroll.

 

[steriaca]

That depends upon the GM, the special effect of the power, how much Experience Points your willing to spend (the game master might force you to rebuy the power each time the charges run out), ect.

[mrinku]

Basically... is the power The Scroll or it is the ability to write a scroll? If it's the latter, then it's more likely to be the extra -¼ Limitation for the charges being difficult to recover, or taking a larger Limitation value for requiring a longer base time to recharge them.

 

Keep in mind all charges have to have defined means of recharge. If Black Widow is off in space fighting Skrulls with the Avengers, she's probably going to be watching her ammo more carefully than she'd need to in NYC or on the Heli-Carrier, even though her bullets and wrist thingies would be regular charges she can usually top up outside of combat. So in a wizard context scrolls could simply be defined as regular charges that require sitting down at the tower and re-writing.

 

You could also potentially do them using a Summon Scroll spell (loaded with extra time requireds and other limitations that prevent it being cast outside the magical workshop). In that case the "does not recharge" would represent the scroll destructing after use.

[Lucius]

Fantasy Hero Complete 244: 

 

After much discussion in another thread, I was convinced that once a charge which never recovers has been used, there is no way in heaven and earth that charge could ever exist again.

 

The scroll description and example given shows scrolls created as a Multipower, where the charges on the scroll Never Recover. But the description right above that scroll states:

 

"It also causes the spell to erase itself from the scroll. Creating a new scroll takes time and the proper materials."

 

What this says to me is that charges which never recover do not just, 'show up again the next day Automatically', but that they can be 'recast or recreated' with time and effort.

 

I thought we'd been over this?

 

I can't find my copy of Fantasy Hero Complete, unfortunately. So I have to take your word about what it says.

 

But if you check the credits you will see my name listed (among any others whose words carried more weight than mine) and I hope you'll take my word when I tell you that when the book was being composed and there was ongoing discussion on what to include, to the best of my recollection no one even proposed changing how "Charges Do Not Recover" work.

 

And the way they work is, once all the Charges are expended, that power is GONE. You won't get it back with just time and effort; time and effort may be required but they are not sufficient. You ALSO have to EXPEND FURTHER CHARACTER POINTS. If they Game Operations Director is generous, perhaps just enough points to cover the difference between the original cost, and the cost of the power with more Charges added; otherwise, you pay full cost and buy the power a second time.

 

 

 

Re-Charge vs re-Cover: With this rule from FHC, it makes me think in terms of that original fantasy game system: Earlier versions would have, say, a Staff of Fireballs which could never recover. And that systems staves now recover some charges every day. But even the earlier ones which did not recover, with the right skills/knowledges/powers (spell casting), said staves could be re-Charged, as opposed to re-Covered.

 

 

 

 

Thinking in terms of that other fantasy game system may in fact be the problem here.

 

Summary:

 

1) Without specific limitations, charges Recover naturally (typically a day according to the rules). Priests get them back next day, Gadgets take time to naturally recharge, Knife wielders take time to go back to base and get more knives, etc.[yes]

 

Yes

 

 

 

2) Recoverable Charges limitation: Sweep the field after combat to find those knives or arrows, but once done, ready for the next combat. Priest sits and prays for an hour. Mage studies his spellbook for an hour. Gadgeteer plugs his blasters into his portable charger for an hour, etc.

 

 

 

 

Yes

 

3) Never recover: 6E1 (372) "Charges which Never Recover are primarily intended for intriguing power constructs with a small number

of Charges, like a one-time-use magic scroll."  FHC 244: "It also causes the spell to erase itself from the scroll. Creating a new scroll takes time and the proper materials." WITH the example of Never Recover spells being recreateable, and being in a Multipower no less.

 

It is the CHARGE which is not recoverable (does not automatically re-happen). But the spell/power/etc. can be re-cast/re-created, with time and effort, like writing a new scroll.

 

No.

 

It strikes me as strange to include a power with Charges Do Not Recover in a Multipower, and I plan to check this as soon as I find my copy of Fantasy Hero Complete. But what that would mean would be that that specific slot could only be used the number of times it had Charges for. And then of course, you could buy the Multipower Slot over again (or rather, buy another one that's identical) to use the power again.

 

What you can NOT do is "expend time and effort" without also spending character points and get that power back.

 

Look, if you don't believe me, feel free to take it up with Mr. Long or Mr. Surbrook.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Did the palindromedary eat my copy of that book?

 

 

 

 

[iamlibertarian]

That depends upon the GM, the special effect of the power, how much Experience Points your willing to spend (the game master might force you to rebuy the power each time the charges run out), ect.

 

But that is always the case. GM allowance, for Anything you build. Some GMs don't allow Pre/Retrocog *at all*. Some don't allow Telepathy (or at least deep mind reading) *at all*. But the rules themselves allow it.

 

I am just looking for clarification of the rules themselves. Powers with "Charges Never Recover" appears to mean that only the Charges never *recover*, but the power can be re-cast (spells), or re-created (gadgets), etc., with time and effort.

[iamlibertarian]

1) Basically... is the power The Scroll or it is the ability to write a scroll? If it's the latter, then it's more likely to be the extra -¼ Limitation for the charges being difficult to recover, or taking a larger Limitation value for requiring a longer base time to recharge them.

 

2) Keep in mind all charges have to have defined means of recharge. If Black Widow is off in space fighting Skrulls with the Avengers, she's probably going to be watching her ammo more carefully than she'd need to in NYC or on the Heli-Carrier, even though her bullets and wrist thingies would be regular charges she can usually top up outside of combat.

 

3) So in a wizard context scrolls could simply be defined as regular charges that require sitting down at the tower and re-writing. 

 

4) You could also potentially do them using a Summon Scroll spell (loaded with extra time requireds and other limitations that prevent it being cast outside the magical workshop). In that case the "does not recharge" would represent the scroll destructing after use.

 

1) But that is not what the *rules* say, at least according to the rules example I showed. Normal charges happen daily -in general-. Special circumstances may cause hardship on any character, regardless of how the powers were built. 

 

2) Yes, but Black Widow might be built on recoverable charges (most likely), where on a normal day she could just return to the base, or any gun shop, and buy more bullets anytime outside of combat, rather than just once per day. This is an example of special circumstances which make things more difficult regardless of the build. But Black Widow is also not Doctor Strange, or some Priest of SoAndSo, for whom a charged power does just mystically recharge daily.

 

3) So in a wizard context, yes scrolls *could* simply be defined as regular charges as you say, but that would make them Recoverable Charges, if they could be done any time outside of combat. But according to FHC 244, they can also be Never Recover, be (-2), and just take "time and proper materials" to create a New Scroll. And can even be put into a Multipower that way if one chooses. GMs can run anything any way they want. But the rules themselves say that Charges that Never Recover are simply never "recovered", but can be re-cast/created.

 

4) "You could also potentially do them using a Summon Scroll spell (loaded with extra time requireds and other limitations that prevent it being cast outside the magical workshop). In that case the "does not recharge" would represent the scroll destructing after use." 

 

This is true, and I like it. But it just goes to show yet another way that said -2 limitation is valid for things which CAN be recreated, it just takes time and effort to do so.

 

Thanks for making me think

DC

[iamlibertarian]

 

 

 

 

 

"No.

It strikes me as strange to include a power with Charges Do Not Recover in a Multipower, and I plan to check this as soon as I find my copy of Fantasy Hero Complete. But what that would mean would be that that specific slot could only be used the number of times it had Charges for. And then of course, you could buy the Multipower Slot over again (or rather, buy another one that's identical) to use the power again.

What you can NOT do is "expend time and effort" without also spending character points and get that power back.

Look, if you don't believe me, feel free to take it up with Mr. Long or Mr. Surbrook."

-----

 

I am only quoting the rules. As a GM, you are free to do it any way you like. But it says what it says. /shrug

[Lucius]

-----

 

I am only quoting the rules. As a GM, you are free to do it any way you like. But it says what it says. /shrug

And you're free to do as you like, and obviously will. But the rules don't mean what you want them to mean.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I'm free to put a palindromedary in this tagline but there's no rule requiring it.

[iamlibertarian]

And you're free to do as you like, and obviously will. But the rules don't mean what you want them to mean.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I'm free to put a palindromedary in this tagline but there's no rule requiring it.

 

I will do whatever my GM allows, no more or less.

 

Words have meaning. I typed in the words from the rule book. /shrug

[Chris Goodwin]

Fantasy Hero Complete 244: 

 

After much discussion in another thread, I was convinced that once a charge which never recovers has been used, there is no way in heaven and earth that charge could ever exist again.

 

The scroll description and example given shows scrolls created as a Multipower, where the charges on the scroll Never Recover. But the description right above that scroll states:

 

"It also causes the spell to erase itself from the scroll. Creating a new scroll takes time and the proper materials."

 

What this says to me is that charges which never recover do not just, 'show up again the next day Automatically', but that they can be 'recast or recreated' with time and effort.

And additional expenditure of Character Points. You can ask a rules question, but past rules questions and rules FAQs have reiterated that Charges that Never Recover, never do recover.  They're sunk points.  

 

Given that "...unless the GM says otherwise" is an always implied condition, never doesn't always mean never ever.  Also by RAW, you can spend points to buy down or buy off Limitations, with GM permission and assuming it makes sense for the character and in-game.  Spending points to buy off the "never recover" part would be allowed IMO and IMG as long as you can justify it in game.  If you want something that can be recreated or recovered with time and effort, but without an additional expenditure of Character Points, what you're looking for no longer fits the definition of Charges that Never Recover, per RAW.  

 

Edit to add:  Expendable Focus might be more like what you're looking for.  That explicitly represents a Focus that loses the power, that has to be recreated using time and effort and in-game resources like money and lab time, but no additional points.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Never recover: 6E1 (372) "Charges which Never Recover are primarily intended for intriguing power constructs with a small number

of Charges, like a one-time-use magic scroll."  FHC 244: "It also causes the spell to erase itself from the scroll. Creating a new scroll takes time and the proper materials." WITH the example of Never Recover spells being recreateable, and being in a Multipower no less.

 

 

The scroll is a magic item.  Making a magic item means something external to the character, usually involving spending character points.  As in: buying a new power again.

 

In my opinion, the use of "never recovers" in a multipower either kills a slot entirely or is a cheat ad should never be used.  In other words, the example is wrong, and broken, and in error.

[massey]

Never recover appears to be tightly tied to the old Independent limitation. Both were a -2 that cost you character points once they were gone. I always thought of it as most appropriate in a D&D type game where finding cool items was considered part of the genre. You don't have to pay for a cool magic sword, you just find a cool magic sword. The charges in the free wand you found never come back, etc.

 

These sorts of things are generally not appropriate in games where you expect to keep your cool stuff and get it back if it gets lost.

 

Captain America has a unique shield, and theoretically if he loses it, it should be gone, right? Except he always always always gets it back. It's an essential part of the character. Bob's +1 longsword isn't the same.

 

To better fit with a normal Hero-style game, I'd suggest tacking on limitations (only recover in given circumstances, costs X amount of time/money/materials to recover, etc) to simulate a guy who can keep creating scrolls.

[Cassandra]

Question:  Why do you want something that has a change that can never be recovered? 

 

There is the Independent limitation which means that unlike Focus the character can lose it forever.

[iamlibertarian]

Question:  Why do you want something that has a change that can never be recovered? 

 

There is the Independent limitation which means that unlike Focus the character can lose it forever.

 

"Independent" has been removed from 6E

[iamlibertarian]

 

The scroll is a magic item.  Making a magic item means something external to the character, usually involving spending character points.  As in: buying a new power again.

 

In my opinion, the use of "never recovers" in a multipower either kills a slot entirely or is a cheat ad should never be used.  In other words, the example is wrong, and broken, and in error.

 

 

Now see, that is a debate argument I can accept. And GMs can run things with any rules changes or ignoring rules completely if they don't like them. But it doesn't invalidate that it is in the rule books as written, and that it doesn't mean what it means.

[Cassandra]

I stopped with the 5th Edition.  

[iamlibertarian]

I stopped with the 5th Edition.  

 

I miss "Independent". It made true magic items rather than just foci which other can sometimes use. If my character made items which could truly be 'handed out,' then the receiving characters would have to pay the CP for it, and my character was just the 'cool excuse'.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I do too, i think Independent had function and value, but needed tinkering and clarification to work properly in a game.

[iamlibertarian]

I do too, i think Independent had function and value, but needed tinkering and clarification to work properly in a game.

 

Additional value (to the game) of Independent: If I intended it for my character, but hand it off more often than not, *I* don't get to use it when handed off. Even if the character who uses it the most doesn't pay CP, my character did. Just like a base, useful the team, Someone needs to pay the points, and my character did. 

[massey]

Independent works great if you want your character to start with something that you know will probably go away at some point in time.  In a point-balanced superhero game, it's probably not appropriate.  In a fantasy game where you want your hobbit to start out with a magic invisibility ring, even if you know he probably won't keep it through the whole campaign, it works fine.

 

Magic item creation is a little different.  If you're playing an old wizard who sits in his tower making items for adventurers, then those guys are the ones who pay the points, not you.  In Hero, it's all about how you intend the power to be used.  Gandalf's staff doesn't have Independent, because like Cap's shield, the old wizard intends on keeping the staff basically forever.  It's an integral part of the character.  Merry's sword that he stabbed the Witch King with, that was an Independent item that he found (and lost) during the adventure.  Scrolls and potions and other things that you regularly create and hand out to your buddies, those should probably be bought Usable By Other (see the earlier thread about Focuses/Foci).

 

Charges that don't recover should probably be limited to NPCs or magic items that you aren't paying for, unless you really know what you're doing (such as resurrection, 8 charges that don't recover, to represent Cat Girl's 9 lives).

[Chris Goodwin]

I hated Independent, and I'm glad it's gone.  I'm gunning for the other permanent point-sinks as well.  

 

Without them, points are a metagame measure of character power level, nothing more.  With them, points are sometimes a measure of character power, sometimes a currency a character can expend for something, sometimes are represented in-game as magical power.  

 

The problem Independent was intended to "solve" was that characters could become walking magic item factories.  Okay, so we make it so that characters have to spend points permanently, so that they can only have an item if they really really want it.  Except that now the creator -- and only the creator -- spends points for the item, permanently.  Making it so that no one wants to make magic items, because who wants to spend points permanently?  So we have weirdness like there being magical substances floating around the world that have Character Points embedded in them but only for purposes of making magic items.  Thus defeating the purpose of permanently spending the points.  

 

It was a non-problem with a non-solution that needed patches to solve the problems that the non-solution created, and still left breakage in its wake.

 

It's a whole lot easier to just say no, you can't become a walking magic item factory.  If you want to make a magic item, you can, if you have the Skills with which to do it.  Maybe the enchanter has to forge the blade himself, in which case he needs PS: Blacksmith.  Maybe it has to be made out of just the right pure alloy, in which case he also needs SS: Metallurgy.  Maybe it can only be done when the moon is in Scorpio and Mercury is in Uranus, which only happens every three hundred years, and by the way is coming up next Tuesday between 8:18 and 9:27.  And he needs SS: Astronomy.  Maybe enchanting takes Power Skill: Enchantment, or Inventor (Enchanted Items), rather than Power Skill: Magic, which would be used to cast them.  

[iamlibertarian]

1) Scrolls and potions and other things that you regularly create and hand out to your buddies, those should probably be bought Usable By Other (see the earlier thread about Focuses/Foci).

 

2) Charges that don't recover should probably be limited to NPCs or magic items that you aren't paying for, unless you really know what you're doing (such as resurrection, 8 charges that don't recover, to represent Cat Girl's 9 lives).

 

1) I agree, in 6E, which does not have Independent. But I am not sure I agree about with editions which have Independent, even in a point balanced campaign like Supers. IF Independent were available, I see no difference in game balance with me casting an Aid Strength on a brick giving him/her another 15 points STR, and putting it on an Independent item and handing it to him. In fact, the Aid STR might be More powerful. With the Independent item, I can only hand it out to one character, and with the Aid STR power, I can cast it on multiple people. In either example, the CP are paid. 

 

2) I like this example, and will have to use it on a character some time

[iamlibertarian]

1) Scrolls and potions and other things that you regularly create and hand out to your buddies, those should probably be bought Usable By Other (see the earlier thread about Focuses/Foci).

 

2) Charges that don't recover should probably be limited to NPCs or magic items that you aren't paying for, unless you really know what you're doing (such as resurrection, 8 charges that don't recover, to represent Cat Girl's 9 lives).

 

1) In an edition which has Independent, I don't see a problem with handing the item out, even in a point balanced campaign like Supers. If my character casts Aid STR on a brick, giving him/her an extra 15 pts STR, I see no difference if I instead hand that character an Independent item which does the same. In fact, the direct use of Aid STR, that is more powerful, as my character can cast that on multiple teammates, whereas with the Independent item, I can only hand it to one character. In either example, the CP were paid.

 

2) I like that, I will have to create a character with that power

[mrinku]

3) So in a wizard context, yes scrolls *could* simply be defined as regular charges as you say, but that would make them Recoverable Charges, if they could be done any time outside of combat.

 

Er, no. Recoverable Charges are ones that *aren't* expended, though they will need to be recovered for reuse - based on the special effects. Arrows pulled out of bodies, thrown shields picked up, thrown dice gathered up for the next throw and so on. This is commonly "after combat" but can usually be managed during combat by taking appropriate actions (running over to the body and pulling the thrown dagger out; bouncing the shield so that it returns to be caught and so on). A key point with recoverable charges is that it's often possible to block the use of the power by preventing the recovery. Time based recovery is usually immune to that, though "difficult to recover" might be.

 

Standard charges recover once per day, through some means that the player and GM agree on, based on the power's special effects. Taking an extra -¼ limitation to make them difficult to recover is on top of this. It's also accepted that sometimes you may be able to top up more often than once a day, or be limited in your ability to recharge at all depending on the current situation and special effect. i.e. Teslaman normally needs to plug into a wall socket overnight to recharge. This adventure finds T-Man stuck in the late Jurassic, so those charges had better be hoarded carefully!

 

The "once a day" thing is meant to be a rough guide. Some concepts do indeed recharge exactly at the stroke of midnight, or a fixed time after they are used. Others will be fuzzier; "after a good night's rest" or "re-equip at base".

 

However, you CAN define your scroll as Recoverable charges. Maybe it's a modern magic campaign and you can make a scroll with a biro and notepad on the fly. Traditionally they take hours of ritual, flawless calligraphy and special materials. Although to my eye a better way there would be to reduce the recovery time from "per day" to "per 5 minutes plus requires extra effort - write scroll", since it's not going to be the equivalent of picking up a thrown dagger.

 

It comes down to what sort of scroll you're trying to model with HERO powers.

[Cantriped]

I often use Recoverable Charges for things that require more effort than simply walking over and picking up a thrown dagger, but less effort than waiting 24 hours. For example, I'll usually give anything with a rechargable battery a couple clips of 1 or more recoverable charges (with each Clip representing the battery itself), and then I'll specify in the notes what the recovery condition is (such as X number of hours spent on a charging station for example, usually apportioned to X Charges Per Y​ Amount Of Time)