Strength, disadvantage 'must use at full strength'?

[Era Scarecrow]

I wonder... is there any characters or cases of STR being bought with must be used at full power (-1)?

In the case of inherit strength, that would be the case of they can't control their strength, it's always at full strength... leaning against a wall could cause them to tear through it like it was paper and fall to the other side. Being it would be a high problem in a variety of cases for a high strength individual I see it coming up as a big issue. Worse if they were trying to throw something small like a football or an object to help a friend, toss them a first aid kit and knock them back 100m.

Then again that would probably go under complications, and be worth half as much as the strength, since a STR 10 person won't have the same issues as a STR 50 character.

Hmmm maybe it would be minimum casual strength would be a better match?.

And imagine the bad reputation, people would be running because the Guy has to literally stand still in order not to cause damage...

Actually that sounds like an unintentional villain for a session...

 

 

edit: Maybe this would have been better posted where I can get feedback from everyone...

[Steve Long]

Yes, I think this is a discussion topic, so I'll move it to the Discussion board.

[steriaca]

I have not seen a character with such a limitation on STR. I have seen Psychological Limitation (Complication): Underestimates Needed STR For Doing Things or such. I might be misremembering it. It might be a Physical Limitation/Complication instead.

[Era Scarecrow]

Yes, I think this is a discussion topic, so I'll move it to the Discussion board.

Thanks, i also didn't notice that entire section was for for your responses only. My mistake.

 

I have not seen a character with such a limitation on STR. I have seen Psychological Limitation (Complication): Underestimates Needed STR For Doing Things or such. I might be misremembering it. It might be a Physical Limitation/Complication instead.

Could be. The most obvious example of such a character would be The Thing from Fantastic Four where in the 2005 film where he's practically destroying anything he touches. Although I recall an alien with a similar problem in Sluggy Freelance (webcomic) where the alien comments about destroying another cell phone or another keyboard due to a similar problem.

 

Probably having to use casual strength (at minimum) would be the way to go, so they have 'some' control over their abilities, but still 25STR whenever they are acting is still bound to cause problems. Who knows, maybe that only is in effect when they actually have to react faster than a controlled/concentrated pace. So opening a door might be fine, but someone tosses a soda at you and you're surprised, you catch it and it explodes... Or maybe requires concentration to override? Hope they don't have an 8-...

 

Although that limitation could also be explained away as suddenly having a HUGE amount of strength added to them and they aren't used to it (suddenly having 100STR when you were 5 minutes ago 10STR...) which is more akin to what you're talking about; Then they pay the disadvantage off over time until it's gone or move the points to a negative reputation as the 'The Human Bulldozer' or something, and only construction/demolition companies would hire him.

 

I'm not sure I'd qualify it as a physical complication as it doesn't disable him, and it's not a psychological complication (as I'd define it). So I'd probably put it in Social Complication (As it affects everyone around you more than the destruction you actually cause by accident, and it probably emotionally hurts more that way too).

 

So... Social complication: Very Frequently, Major: 20pts maybe?

Still applying requires skillroll (concentration to use less than casual/full -1/4) to all of the inherit strength together might simulate it very well...

 

Let's assume a 50str character, you'd get 20 points in complications, and pay 30 points for the strength, making a total cost of 10str, add concentration skill for a total of 13pts.

 

Now for a 100str character, same 20 in complications, pay 70 points for strength for a total cost of 50pts, add concentration you get 53pts.

[DasBroot]

A background NPC in my current game has this exact limitation... and a 120 str (when the campaign cap for players is 60).

 

The idea was inspired by Superman's "World of Cardboard" speech from the last episode of JLU where I thought 'but what if he couldn't?'

 

Since it's a background flavour NPC there's not a lot that needs to be done to address the problem for 'balance's' sake ... but basically he only ever uses his Flight to move and his sidekick, a robotic 'combat butler', helps him interact with the world when necessary by opening doors, rescuing cats from trees, pulling people from burning buildings, etc.

 

For the most part, though, he stays in his specially designed fortress floating above one of the city parks (a base with PD30 - usable on others for his guests) as it's the only place in the world where he can *almost* be 'normal').

 

Even in his base, though, he's incredibly lonely - the force field generator will (probably) keep his friends and company alive if he accidentally bumps into them but he's still likely to knock them out or stun them with a casual touch.

 

Even must use at full strength on a 10 is bad enough (though obviously not *as* bad).  You literally hit something as hard as the average guy can every time you apply your strength.  Grab a glass? Broken.  Kiss your girlfriend? You did on average 4 stun for touching her. On a 'good' roll you could inflict 1 or 2 BODY - bruises that take weeks to heal.  Picked up your cell phone? Cracked its screen.  Tried to button up your dress shirt? Tore each button off as you pulled.

 

Anything a normal person could do if they tried hard enough (without life or death pushing) is what you do EVERY time.  

[Era Scarecrow]

A background NPC in my current game has this exact limitation...

Very informative, and yes does match what I was meaning.

 

Hmmm depending on a normal who can't control his strength, a workaround MIGHT very well be a straight jacket able to keep most things in check (entangle 5rPD?) at least for accidental use of his strength so he would walk around and be harmless until it needs to come off. But you're right even a normal person always using full strength would cause a bit of chaos by itself.

 

The combat butler certainly does get around the major problems when he HAS to be in public (and rescuing kittens from trees), but stuck at either destroying everything or isolated. At least he has somewhere to go that's more or less keeping chaos from affecting the world around him. Imagine a PC who decided to take this full out without a base or somewhere safe?

[mrinku]

It can be done using a Physical Compication. In the example of the 2005 FF movie, it's also an origin film, so lack of initial control doesn't necessarily mean a baked in limitation. And The Thing would have something like "Physical: Large and dense rocky body with clumsy fingers". That would definitely cover initial clumsiness until he got used to his new strength level and later accidentally breaking stuff under stress.

 

In the comics, Ben Grimm is the poster boy for strength restraint. "Doom's a robot? That means I don't hafta pull my punches, which means... IT'S CLOBBERING TIME!"

 

But I do like the idea of this as a defining feature of a character. 

[Era Scarecrow]

It can be done using a Physical Compication. In the example of the 2005 FF movie, it's also an origin film, so lack of initial control doesn't necessarily mean a baked in limitation. And The Thing would have something like "Physical: Large and dense rocky body with clumsy fingers". That would definitely cover initial clumsiness until he got used to his new strength level and later accidentally breaking stuff under stress.

 

But I do like the idea of this as a defining feature of a character.

I'd think a physical complication is more along the lines of missing an arm or a leg or something. However it also covers being larger, or denser, so you are right, I haven't made enough characters or used enough complications in 5e or 6e to know how to use these properly.

 

I also like the idea of this, or something else as a feature.

 

If you go another stat that you have to use at full strength I don't know of any that would have a similar effect... Although having to use SPD at full speed all the time would probably be similar to someone jittery when they are waiting on a fix for crack... But that doesn't really do much. If you move full running/movement all the time you could either move or something else... lots of running in 2-3 hexes to get precise movement to get within 1 hex of someone for combat...

[Cantriped]

I would represent having to use your Strength at Full Power as both a Limited modifier on your Strength and also a Physical Complication.

 

It's value as a Modifier on your Strength is entirely dependent upon the campaign, and whether or not the character has Code Versus Killing. If they have a Total CvK, and frequently fight enemies which cannot survive a direct hit, it might​ be worth as much as -1/2. Otherwise it is worth -1/4, or nothing at all. The reason being is that there are numerous ways to circumvent doing your full STR Damage: For example, you can throw or strike with an object with less total PD+BODY than you'd normally do dice of Strength Damage (thereby reducing your damage because a thrown object/improvised weapon's damage cannot exceed its PD+BODY).

 

The reason I suggest taking a Physical Complication is because none of the common-sense problems that come from not being able to control your own strength actually have anything to do with Strength as a characteristic. As a characteristic, always using your full Strength won't break objects you pick up unless you actively Attack them (or Attack with them). Instead you just always have extra lift capacity to spare, and have to pay the full END cost of your Strength regardless of how light the object is. Taking it as a complication is also appropriate because it doesn't require you predefine every possible situation where it might be problematic, the GM can adjudicate how often you break objects you interact with based on the frequency of the Complication.

 

On a tangentially related note:

When I am building weapons such as swords and guns, I usually put Cannot Be Reduced​ (-1/4) on them (often in lieu of Beam*). Representing that such weapons must be used at their full dice of damage.

* which I split into three modifiers: Cannot Be Spread, ​Cannot Be Pushed/Reduced, and Does Not Leave Holes, each worth -1/4)

[mrinku]

The Pulling Your Punch maneuver can come in handy for a character who can't reduce their strength.

 

I'd expect lots of DEX rolls to avoid taking out chunks of doorway (especially for a large bodied character), snapping off doorhandles and the like. With care you could manage, but it  really would be like living in a world made of balsa wood and tissue paper.

[Era Scarecrow]

I'd expect lots of DEX rolls to avoid taking out chunks of doorway (especially for a large bodied character), snapping off doorhandles and the like. With care you could manage, but it  really would be like living in a world made of balsa wood and tissue paper.

Yep, although having a damage shield (always on, 0 end, persistent, concentration & dex rolls to disable?, or uncontrolled?) might have a similar effect of just walking through an area or bumping things doing 1-2 body & 3-6 end... as I doubt brushing a door would give it rag-doll physics and bouncing away 100 feet away.

[Christopher R Taylor]

First off I'd give it a -¼ or at most -½.  Its still every bit as useful for most functions using your strength at full power, you really are not losing much in the way of utility.  As a GM I'd make the character just do an average roll casual attack on everything they run into unless they make a strength roll to carefully control how the power is applied.  Thus, if the guy has 30 STR, hes always applying 3 body to everything (and 15 Stun) just by existing.  Its not going to do full damage, since you have to apply it intelligently to get best results from force, but its going to continually deal some damage to everything the character moves into or manipulates.

[mrinku]

You might also want to consider the Marvel X-Man, Cyclops. He has a powerful Blast that is always on when his eyes are open and needs special material to block it.

 

That can actually be tricky to build - in his case he is able to operate in the world using Foci (his visor or sunglasses) but in his case they logically should make his power more expensive rather than less. Physical Complication helps with building that. 

 

Or Black Bolt from the Inhumans. His speech is so powerful it shatters mountains, so he is functionally Mute.

[dsatow]

just my $0.02

 

I'd personally treat it as a physical complication rather than a limitation.  Then, if the player concentrates on limiting his/her strength, they do not over exert.  I would not treat it as a damage shield, thus kissing someone wouldn't hurt someone (unless they had supper powered breath) but an embrace could.  The difficulty would match the intensity (EGO roll, EGO roll -5, always fail) but only in a tense situation.  In a non-tense, they can simply assume they make a normal roll.  Concentration would mean they would be at at least 1/2 DCV or worse.

 

Again, that's just how I would do it.

[Cantriped]

just my $0.02

 

I'd personally treat it as a physical complication rather than a limitation.  Then, if the player concentrates on limiting his/her strength, they do not over exert.  I would not treat it as a damage shield, thus kissing someone wouldn't hurt someone (unless they had supper powered breath) but an embrace could.  The difficulty would match the intensity (EGO roll, EGO roll -5, always fail) but only in a tense situation.  In a non-tense, they can simply assume they make a normal roll.  Concentration would mean they would be at at least 1/2 DCV or worse.

 

Again, that's just how I would do it.

Not to nit-pick too much (okay... to nit-pick a little), but wouldn't a Psychological Complication (Must Use Full Strength) better represent the mechanics you describe? One of the principle differences between Physical and Psychological Complications is that the former does not allow EGO rolls to avoid the effect, whereas the latter explicitly does.

[Era Scarecrow]

Not to nit-pick too much (okay... to nit-pick a little), but wouldn't a Psychological Complication (Must Use Full Strength) better represent the mechanics you describe?

Personally sounds more like an OCD thing; Like for a car "If I don't always drive at 120MPH then why do I have a sports car at all?" mentality. But compare to say a car vs a rocket, a car can speed up and slow down, a rocket has ONLY one speed... (kinda like one of the only problems with rocket stoves)

 

So I guess it's more where the complication hits... Outside of combat (which you might always use full strength anyways) So... Hmmm....

 

Complications:

Physical: Automatic and works, but I don't think really fits

Social: The social reactions of you destroying things accidentally, people running or being leery of you, getting upset, commenting how you ruined their dinner.

Psychological: Doesn't see a problem with using it all the time, perhaps has utter disdain for anything that can't handle him.

Unluck: Maybe any time strength is used, if a 6 is rolled then full strength is used (whether you want to or not), ignored during battle or when you use full strength... Hmmm... one of the few times I might take unluck. But seems a better fit if it's a skill/characteristic roll.

 

Powers (other than STR):

Damage shield: The effects of walking through an area and brushing against things would cause damage to nearby property, seen as effects of uncontrolled strength.

 

Disadvantages:

Concentration roll (To use less than full strength): Yes you'd be at 1/2 DCV, but again this would likely only be out of combat so 1/2 DCV doesn't mean much. I mean, how many people might be making model ships or overhauling the engine of a car while in combat which would require this concentration roll? (not to say it couldn't happen, just unlikely)

Skill/characteristic roll: For anything other than routine/non-stressed actions the effect could blow up in your face. On the other hand the 'off by one' roll could be casual strength instead, less severe but still a problem.

No Conscious Control: If the Strength is bought separately, then sure; But not applicable for your base STR for this, otherwise you'd be a 0 STR except when you're randomly a 60 STR Goliath...

 

 

Someone likened using full strength to merely paying full Strengths' END but they still choose how much strength of that they actually wanted to use (intentionally wasting it). Feels more akin to an idling car (a lot of horse power but not doing anything)... Or renting a tank to tote a hotdog stand.

[mrinku]

Even in combat you can come up with a bunch of scenarios where Full Strength Always On is going to cause issues.

• Needing to grab some delicate object (SMASH!)
• Or frail civilian (SNAP!)
• Throwing things, aside from "as far and as hard as possible" (OOPS!)
• Stopping a speeding vehicle slowly so that it doesn't become a mangled wreck, or that the part of it you grab doesn't just shear off (SCREECH! CRASH!)
• Pushing someone out of the way of an attack (AAAAGH!)
• Being able to punch out a normal without killing or maiming them (SPLAT!)

At the end of the day you define WHAT the problem is and work out how that translates into game terms and if it's worth a cost break. There are a range of "doesn't know their own strength" situations and some characters may be more or less extreme.

 

The mind control acid test works well to determine what sort of Complication is needed. In this case, would a mind-controlled character be more or less likely to accidentally smash things? I'd tend to go with more likely, especially if the character manages to keep a handle on their power by constant force of will, or if the mind controller is not used to operating such a powerhouse. That says "Physical" nor "Psychological" to me.

 

Having said that, mind control could still be used to impose  inaction. That would be the case regardless if it being a physical, psychological or social complication.

[Lucius]

 

You might also want to consider the Marvel X-Man, Cyclops. He has a powerful Blast that is always on when his eyes are open and needs special material to block it.

 

That can actually be tricky to build - in his case he is able to operate in the world using Foci (his visor or sunglasses) but in his case they logically should make his power more expensive rather than less.

I don't understand your logic at all.

 

And the way I'd build that is with Variable Limitations: He either has the Focus, or is Blasting willy nilly (No Conscious Control) or else is blind because his eyes are closed (Side Effects)

 

 

 

As for the original question about a character with uncontrollable STR: I will point out that the higher the STR the worse the problem is for the character. So a Limitation on STR is appropriate; the more pts spent on STR, the more pts are saved by the Limitation. The points saved scale precisely with the problems caused.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary, Always On

[mrinku]

I don't understand your logic at all.

 

And the way I'd build that is with Variable Limitations: He either has the Focus, or is Blasting willy nilly (No Conscious Control) or else is blind because his eyes are closed (Side Effects)

 

 

It's not No Conscious Control - he can still direct the beam. More like Always On or a custom Limitation. But I do like the idea of Variable Limitations to build it.

[Era Scarecrow]

It's not No Conscious Control - he can still direct the beam. More like Always On or a custom Limitation. But I do like the idea of Variable Limitations to build it.

Seeing as he will almost always have glasses or his helmet on, it seems like OIF with side effects (adding always on) would be the way to build it... maybe? Naturally it would be 0 END, although if it forcibly was draining his END that could be annoying, although he'd likely just shut his eyes until he could find his helmet/glasses again so that would not have a huge effect on things...

[Christopher R Taylor]

I built it with always on full power, then a custom power that removed the limitation with an OAF on it (his goggle can be yanked off, it has happened repeatedly in the comics.

[Era Scarecrow]

I built it with always on full power, then a custom power that removed the limitation with an OAF on it (his goggle can be yanked off, it has happened repeatedly in the comics.

 

Yep, that's one way... Alternatively it a multi-power, one with OAF and one with always on, and treat it as appropriate...

 

But what you put is probably the best way to do it.

[mrinku]

Yeah, Cyclops' eye beam is definitely 0 END. No other way it could be, in Champions terms.

[steriaca]

Yeah, Cyclops' eye beam is definitely 0 END. No other way it could be, in Champions terms.

0 END Always On, Cost END To Turn Always On Off (+0, cause it is an option for Always On powers). A separate pool of points to buy off Always On, and reduce that pool using OAF (Ruby Quartz Glasses/Googles).

[Christopher R Taylor]

In the comics, its portrayed as a fuel charge, because he does very very rarely run out of power (its recharged by the sun).  But its so rare, I would only maybe give it a physical complication.