Would Frankenstein's Monster be considered undead?

[Lord Liaden]

Which is probably why in the CU United States, the legislature has avoided the issue altogether. Politicians hates cans of worms.

 

Just looking at the Hero System write-ups for various undead, it would be hard to define a hard-and-fast status test. Several of these beings aren't affected by holy water or other "sacred" things. Sunlight isn't a problem for other than vampires. Some undead are mindless, others fully sapient. The revenant called the Constable, a member of Canada's StarForce, was reincarnated in what appears to be a functioning fleshly body, but his previous body incontestably died. As with the worlds of the mainstream comics, the CU pulls precedents from everywhere, and those precedents aren't consistent with each other.

 

Your mention of reincarnation did remind me of an interesting case, though. Dr. Teneber (Champions Villains Vol. 3) is an unusual breed of occult vigilante. He's a necromancer who seeks out restless spirits who died before their time, and people of "evil" character whom the world would arguably be better off without. Teneber kills the latter in a way that doesn't permanently harm his body, so the spirit will leave it; then places one of the former into the empty body and uses medical skills to revive it. You're left with a human soul in a living body, but body and soul aren't the original pairing; and both them already died. Solomon himself would have trouble sorting out the legalities of that.

[mrinku]

The Dead Rights people clearly have a deal of work ahead of them...

[steriaca]

Don't forget the beings who look like undead but are not. Like my original Crypt Keeper homage The Tome Keeper who looks like a cackling zombie, but is in reality a cosmic thing on service of cosmic justice.

[Lord Liaden]

Yep. Ditto the villain Cadaver from CV3, or Necrull and his Necrulticians from CV1. OTOH some undead look unexceptionally human, like the vampire oracle Nyssa Tarchaniotes from The Mystic World, described as appearing to be a plump, middle-aged Greek woman, despite being almost two millennia old.

 

Despite being built on black-and-white moral conflicts, superhero worlds can include a lot of grey.

[Era Scarecrow]

My 2¢

 

If it's powered by dark magic? It's undead.

 

 

If it uses organs and/or needs to digest? It is more or less resurrected or alive.

 

 

 

Kinda think back to frogs who can get frozen solid, or starting up rabbit hearts after they were frozen and then thawed...

[Ninja-Bear]

Ctpatriot we know the answer to the Nazarene however Lazarus is the one which your question is better asked.

[mrinku]

My 2¢

 

If it's powered by dark magic? It's undead.

 

 

If it uses organs and/or needs to digest? It is more or less resurrected or alive.

 

 

Now prove that "dark magic" business in a court of law.

 

"My client contends that his so-called 'death' was a result of a drug overdose that led to him suffering cardiac arrest and entering a death-like coma. His current, regrettable state of bodily decay is a direct result of the irresponsible burial of his still living body. If it were not for the timely intervention of his saviour, Doctor Houghnan, whose healing magics are indeed holding back further decay, necrosis and infection then he would, indeed have died. We will be seeking two million dollars compensation from Golden Cross Emergency Centre and Shady Acres Funeral Home for gross negligence leading to acquired brain injury and other damage caused by their actions to my client."

 

"LS: Does not need to eat or drink" can apply to a range of creatures, so is unlikely to be a useful test.

 

i.e. following his transformation, Solar Man now gains all his energy from the sun; Robo-bushi is powered by an atomic reactor; Psycho-leech is an alien that draws sustenance from draining the mental energy of others. 

[DShomshak]

The Dead Rights people clearly have a deal of work ahead of them...

"We prefer the term 'Living Impaired'." <nudge> "Sorry, 'Post Living'." <nudge nudge> "Differently Living? Okay, okay. What's the term this week?"

 

Dean Shomshak, snarking

[Lord Liaden]

My 2¢

 

If it's powered by dark magic? It's undead.

 

 

If it uses organs and/or needs to digest? It is more or less resurrected or alive.

 

 

 

Kinda think back to frogs who can get frozen solid, or starting up rabbit hearts after they were frozen and then thawed...

 

Magic, "dark" or otherwise, isn't enough of a determinant in the Champions Universe, though. Consider Mr. Zombie, a member of the villain team, the Brain Trust (CV2), who was dead and buried until experimental chemicals seeped into his graveyard; or Electro-Man (Golden Age Champions), who was executed in the electric chair, but revived in the morgue. Both men returned with superhuman power, and without many of the hallmarks of the living: no need to eat or breathe, immune to disease or toxins, not aging.

[Lord Liaden]

"We prefer the term 'Living Impaired'." <nudge> "Sorry, 'Post Living'." <nudge nudge> "Differently Living? Okay, okay. What's the term this week?"

 

Dean Shomshak, snarking

 

"Mortally challenged."

[mrinku]

There's also the flipside. Someone may well self-identify as undead. Because that's who they really are.

 

And of all genres, superheroes is one whose reality is arguably the most fluid...

[bigdamnhero]

If it's powered by dark magic? It's undead.

 

If it uses organs and/or needs to digest? It is more or less resurrected or alive.

Not a bad rule of thumb. But as others have pointed out, the actual legalities are likely to get a lot more complicated.

[megaplayboy]

In my campaign, which has aliens, androids, "organic drones", undead, et al., governments have developed the T.E.A.M. assessment.  

The Turing component involves a conversation and series of questions to the subject.  0-5 point scale as follows:

0--the subject's responses are distinguishable from a sapient person within the first minute.

1--as above, except 5 minutes

2--20 minutes

3--1 hour

4--6 hours

5--24 hours or not distinguishable

 

The Emotive component is a measure of the subject's ability to respond appropriately to emotional stimuli, to identify emotional states in others, to simulate or actually feel empathy for others, and to display a full range of emotions

0--subject shows zero emotional response, unable to identify emotional states in others, unable to simulate or display real empathy, no emotional range

1--subject shows minimal/simulated only emotional response, able to identify basic emotional states in others, able to simulate minimal empathy, simulated minimal emotional range

2--subject shows moderate simulated emotional response, able to identify nuanced emotional states in others, able to simulate moderate empathy, broader simulated emotional range

3--subject shows advanced simulated emotional response, able to identify complex emotional states in others, able to simulate deep empathy, full simulated emotional range* 

4--subject shows moderate real emotional response, able to recognize emotional states of others, feels minimal empathy for others, moderate emotional range**

5--full real emotional response, recognizes emotions of others, full empathy, full emotional range

*--psychopaths may test at this level

**--sociopaths may test at this level

 

The Autonomy component is a measure of the subject's ability to work independently and engage in problem-solving behaviors

0--unable to perform any actions without direct commands or programmed routines; no independent problem-solving ability

1--able to perform minor variations on directed actions or work unsupervised for moderate periods; minimal independent problem-solving ability

2--able to performe significant variations on directed actions or work unsupervised for long periods; moderate independent problem-solving ability

3--able to perform major variations on directed actions; complex or compound independent problem-solving

4--able to perform follow-up decisions in regard to directed actions; compound and complex problem-solving

5--able to consider and perform full range of decisions; proactive and anticipatory problem solving

 

The Motivation component is a measure of the subject's ability to develop their own sense of purpose and form their own interests and life goals, also ability to question, resist or defy orders

0--no dependent, derivative or independent interests--only obeys orders

1--has interests derived from designed/programmed purpose, may question orders outside its primary purpose

2--has minor interests independent of programmed purpose, may question orders against its programming parameters

3--has major interests independent of programmed purpose, may question any orders, may resist orders against its perceived programming/interest

4--has full interests independent of programmed purpose, capable of modifying its purpose to limited extent, may question or resist orders, may defy orders against its programming/interest or code of conduct

5--has full interests and motivation, capable of establishing new purpose, may question, resist or defy orders

 

This creates a score range of 0-20.  While the parameters for legal personhood may vary by jurisdiction, a 20 is always accepted as a validation of personhood.  An 18 is accepted in the vast majority of jurisdictions, and a 16 is accepted in many.  The lowest accepted score anywhere is 12.  Some alien species may be waived in, for the sake of diplomacy.  

 

Generally Frankenstein's monster and many intelligent undead would be likely to score high enough to be considered valid legal persons.  

[freakboy6117]

I guess the fundamental argument is the tissue reanimated or merely animate. In the former case it has been returned to life rather than under death and is the re-alive as apposed to undead in just the same way a person with a superhuman healing factor might recover from being chopped up by a mincing machine.

 

Equally an argument could be made that there is no difference between an artificial intelligence constructed of machinery and one constructed from biological systems where the materials originally came from is irrelevant.

[mrinku]

Hmm... another issue that's going to arise by making the undead non-persons is slave labour. Except that it can't be slave labour since they're not actually people, right?

 

Can't see that getting under a bunch of people's (and un-people's) skins...

[Lord Liaden]

While the principles governing such decisions should not depend on the number of entities involved, in practice the numbers will affect how pressed lawmakers feel to deal with them. On Champions Earth the number of sapient, free-willed undead is miniscule compared to the human population. Of those, it appears only a small percentage are not actively malevolent and menaces to living people. The percentage who actually advertise their undead status is even smaller.

 

But looking at this another way, because the undead are not "persons" doesn't necessarily mean they can be abused with impunity. Most of the industrial societies have laws and penalties for cruelty toward animals, which are also not persons, albeit nowhere near as severe. Public attitudes toward abusers can also bring non-judicial pressure to bear on them. Along those lines, I have to think that if an undead hero is known to be heroic, particularly if he works well with law-enforcement, the LEOs will take a dim view of anyone trying to destroy him, however the law defines their legal responsibilities.

[mrinku]

Right. So we could probably get away with zombie sweat shop workers as long as they're kept in conditions no worse than battery hens?

 

What I'm thinking of here is Doctor Houghnan suddenly realising that knocking over banks with his minions is small change indeed compared to the cheap labour that they represent.

 

In fact it could even see a lawsuit from commercial competitors, or the labour unions to try to prove his zombies aren't undead, but mind-controlled victims (which they may indeed be, depending on the powers). Or illegal residents (dead people aren't citizens, right?).

[Lord Liaden]

What, practically speaking, would distinguish a mindless undead zombie working an assembly line, from a robot working an assembly line? The other side of that coin is, what would make a zombie more economically efficient than a robot? Most of the jobs we still need humans for, require more mental acuity than either is likely able to provide. And most of the more intelligent undead are also more powerful, making them too dangerous for slave labor.

[CptPatriot]

Might be as simple as a holy water test (which a Frankenstein style creature should pass). If souls are involved, can those be determined? Are ghosts "undead" per se? Werewolves? Individuals whose souls have been removed without going through the actual death process? Is possession going to fall under the definition?

 

My guess would be that it unleashed a can of worms and probably continues to be a source of appeal and counter-appeal.

 

Holy water by which religious standard? Do you use holy water from Roman Catholics or some other religious order? Why not Satanist holy water? What if Cthuluites object because their religious beliefs aren't represented? What if the person that returned is an agnostic and objects to the precepts of the religion whose holy water you wish to use?

[steriaca]

Holy water by which religious standard? Do you use holy water from Roman Catholics or some other religious order? Why not Satanist holy water? What if Cthuluites object because their religious beliefs aren't represented? What if the person that returned is an agnostic and objects to the precepts of the religion whose holy water you wish to use?

Well, Agnostic undead are still affected by holy water, cause it is powered not by the undead's believe, but by the believe of the one who blessed the water.

 

Satanist "Unholy" Water would act the same, powered by the believe of the one who 'cursed' the water.

 

For "Culthutist", the blessed water is powered by the Kings of Edom (Champions Universe equivalence to the Cuthulu mythos), so overuse of it creates portals which being forth things which would bring insanity and ruin.

[bigdamnhero]

For "Culthutist", the blessed water is powered by the Kings of Edom (Champions Universe equivalence to the Cuthulu mythos), so overuse of it creates portals which being forth things which would bring insanity and ruin.

...and a scenario idea is born!

[mrinku]

What, practically speaking, would distinguish a mindless undead zombie working an assembly line, from a robot working an assembly line? The other side of that coin is, what would make a zombie more economically efficient than a robot? Most of the jobs we still need humans for, require more mental acuity than either is likely able to provide. And most of the more intelligent undead are also more powerful, making them too dangerous for slave labor.

 

Mindless undead wouldn't meet the AAA requirements for sentience I'd have thought. They're in the same boat as non-AI machines, or possibly animals.

 

In any case, mindless or just very stupid (but self-aware) zombies could easily be cheaper to produce and maintain than the equivalent industrial machinery. It largely depends on the powers of the necromancer, running costs of providing fresh brains vs electricity and so forth.

 

Also the industry. If the undead in question feast off dead flesh they could well find a niche in waste disposal, especially if the flesh in question can be non-human. Roadkill clean up springs to mind, and stock sometimes need to be destroyed en masse, such as when they are infected, or when uneconomic to slaughter them normally.

[Lord Liaden]

Oh, if you're thinking of getting a lot of corpses to animate cheaply, I think you'll see a lot of grieving families violently objecting to the bodies of their loved ones desecrated for demeaning labor.

[mrinku]

Set them up with well designed work contracts and the relatives can probably go whistle.  And we're now in the fascinating realm of how to deal with a formerly dead person who may oppose the terms of their own will, or the wishes of their estate. It'll come up with ghosts, too.

 

(Sorry to be so obstreperous on this stuff, but it's go my Devil's Advocate side going at full steam... )

[DShomshak]

(Sorry to be so obstreperous on this stuff, but it's go my Devil's Advocate side going at full steam... )

<Demonologist's ears metaphorically perk up.> New recruit?

 

Dean Shomshak