Era Scarecrow Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Find Weakness is one that's outright gone... no suggestion of how to replace or replicate it. 9. Removed Powers: The following Powers have been removed from the HERO System as distinct Powers: Armor; Damage Resistance; Find Weakness; Force Field; Force Wall; Gliding; Lack Of Weakness; Missile Deflection; Transfer. To replace Damage Resistance, see the Resistant (+½) Advantage; to replace Armor and Force Field, see Resistant Protection; to replace Force Wall, see Barrier; to replace Missile Deflection, see Deflection and Reflection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Yeah. That one has been specifically removed (and Lack of Weakness with it). To simulate it, use Armour Piercing as an Independent Advantage, or buy Armour Piercing on the attack that FW was bought for. It's discussed in the text of CC (and I assume 6e proper). As far as I can tell they wanted to get rid of the FW/AP double whammy and the requirement to have two distinct defences. But mostly to avoid ¼ defences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amorkca Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 CC p210 has Find Weakness as Armor Piercing with an Analyse roll. for 10 CP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauntlet Posted October 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Was the advantage Damage Shield removed and was the limitation linked also taken away? And what about transfers have they been removed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 As far as I can tell they wanted to get rid of the FW/AP double whammy and the requirement to have two distinct defences. But mostly to avoid ¼ defences. Not to mention that Find Weakness could stack with itself, meaning that the target might get ⅛ or less of their actual defense if the attacker had a few phases to prepare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Missile Deflection is gone as well; Deflection doesn't do the same thing at all. Its just presumed anyone can deflect missiles now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Not to mention that Find Weakness could stack with itself, meaning that the target might get ⅛ or less of their actual defense if the attacker had a few phases to prepare. Woo, yeah. Forgot about that bit! There are a few other ways to simulate a skilled attacker hitting weak spots - CSLs used to increase damage, PSLs used to offset Hit Locations, or bonus damage with requires a roll. @Christopher R Taylor: Good point. However, anyone might be able to block ranged attacks now that missile deflection has been merged with the Block maneuver, but it often requires a means to block with, depending on the nature of the attack. Often done with CSLs in Block bought through a focus. Captain America can block bullets with his shield, but Spider-Man and most others have to dodge 'em. Generally, only thrown blunt objects are going to be blockable by a character who hasn't bought something to help with blocking. Though superpowered martial artists might manage arrows and edged thrown weapons. On the other hand, Ozymandias did manage to block a pistol bullet in Watchmen (though not without taking some damage). He earlier used a found object (a nearby metal pedestal) to deflect a shot, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauntlet Posted October 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 I was able to find out how to do damage shields but still am unsure how to do Transfers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 hmmm after generating 3 characters, finding with the 10DC target range that a lot of points get dumped into stats, something like 150 per character. If you look at the 2e/3e benchmarks for Champions, they suggested 100 points should be spent on characteristics out of 225/250 respectively. In 6e, both "Standard" and "Low-Powered" superhero point totals are 50 points higher than they were for 5e. This allows for the loss of figured characteristics, especially OCV and DCV. So you would expect 6e characters to spend around 150 points on characteristics. Or rather, over 150 points, since the 2e/3e benchmarks didn't include things like Int, Ego and Pre. They also handled extra PD and ED bought as part of your "defensive powers" separately. Not to mention Str bought as part of your "offensive powers". Basically, you could easily spend most of your points on characteristics without going outside the recommended limits. This was for Champions of course. Heroic games were, and are, different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 I was able to find out how to do damage shields but still am unsure how to do Transfers. You combine a Drain and an Aid and use Trigger to activate the Aid when the Drain is done. CC p.210 has an example power. IMHO a bit fiddly, but there may have been a reason to do it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 The change to transfer was to make it easier to make transfers that gave you different amounts than it drained, or ones that give you a different stat than they drain. Personally I think requiring a wall of text for every transfer to avoid having one for a small number of them is a bad exchange. While I liked the mechanic of Find Weakness in theory, in practice it was either armor piercing or basically an AVAD, so it didn't really need to be there. Other stuff like Gliding -- it was just limited flight, sort of silly to have it as a separate power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 The neat thing I like about combining Flight and Gliding is that the default Flight includes it. I used to build most winged characters with a Flight/Glide multipower, now that's just the normal thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Missile Deflection is gone as well; Deflection doesn't do the same thing at all. Its just presumed anyone can deflect missiles now. If I got a handle on it, block-ranged is VERY GM/special effect driven now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 For clarity, I'm not against 400 pt builds. I feel though that from a novice's perspective, that many options might be too much at first. It might be better to characters at 300 pt and gain experience points quickly. Say perhaps 10 points at a time until 400 pt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 If I got a handle on it, block-ranged is VERY GM/special effect driven now. Sure. But keep in mind that most of that is targeted at Heroic. If your superhero concept includes an indestructible shield or magic bullet bouncing bracelets, that's what you do (in most cases some kind of purchase is still going to be needed). If you can pluck arrows out of the air because of your super speed or danger sense, so be it. You can get creative with it as well - blocking a bullet intended for someone standing next to you may save the target, but mean that you take the hit. Classic bodyguard move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Scarecrow Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 For clarity, I'm not against 400 pt builds. I feel though that from a novice's perspective, that many options might be too much at first. It might be better to characters at 300 pt and gain experience points quickly. Say perhaps 10 points at a time until 400 pt. Hmmm or go even lower. Say target 225, and then going up 15-20 points per small adventure, sorta budding and growing powers. Also would work well for a number of games, like X-men, making powers with LOTS of disadvantages simulating being new at something and then overcoming it later, especially a technical individual who has a suit or had a VPP for gadgets. Of course there's going to be the obligatory 'this was a mistake' so you'd also allow say 5 points to be removed from a power and put into the pool per small adventure simulating losing or retiring something in exchange for something else, or natural growth. Although going up 10-20 might be too easy to get used to, so easing up on how much they get slows down heavily... so 10 to 8, to 6, etc, until it's at the rate of however many are rewarded. Since I've only played one Fantasy game in 5E, the rate of XP was something like 2-3xp per session. Enough to grow a multi-power or make small tweaks, but nothing that really felt like I was making much progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Character progression is over-rated anyway. But I cut my teeth on Traveller not D&D so what do I know? 3 points is an entire fully trained skill. 5 points doubles your strength. You have to put HERO character growth rates in perspective; like Traveller you are starting with fully competent (usually hyper competent in HERO) characters and any change should be gradual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Scarecrow Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 And 2 points can give you a mere +1 to a skill, learn a language or get a familiarity with several weapons; And while 5 points doubles how much you can 'lift' it doesn't double your damage. 5 points does NOT consistently double your dexterity ability, your speed, intelligence, or make you 1/2 as likely to get winded when using powers every round. every 5 points doesn't cut in half the likelihood of getting stunned or double your hitpoints with every use. 5 points doesn't make a transform twice as easy or effective. Places were 5pts will double is lifting capacity (not strength checks or damage), buying equipment (+5 adder), duplication (+5 adder), Movement (Non-combat I believe, again +5 adder), followers, and probably a few other places. But otherwise it's not really the huge doubling effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 So you're saying your Heroic level character wouldn't notice the difference between a STR20 and a STR15 punch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 I do think it is a campaign decision to be made. Experience or no experience. Like many other topics, discussed in reasonable depth previously. I don't think I play long enough campaigns for it to be a useful thing... I am also coming to the conclusion that if I want a high-powered Champions game, I don't want to wait for the characters to get there, I just give em the points. I think I would be open to some campaign development goals but probably more social than power focussed. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Scarecrow Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 So you're saying your Heroic level character wouldn't notice the difference between a STR20 and a STR15 punch? Depends on if you roll poorly or not... a STR15 character who routinely rolls 5's and 6's will be more effective than a STR20 who rolls average. Although if we're talking strictly heroic (not superheroes) then the growth in power is likely going to be slower and lower, not sure at what point you would feel like you 'leveled up'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Character progression is over-rated anyway. But I cut my teeth on Traveller not D&D so what do I know? 3 points is an entire fully trained skill. 5 points doubles your strength. You have to put HERO character growth rates in perspective; like Traveller you are starting with fully competent (usually hyper competent in HERO) characters and any change should be gradual. What I'm thinking of is so that new players get a feel of the mechanics first then add more powers. It's like teaching Battletech. I keep it at 3025 era because that has the basic weapons/equipment then start in the 35-45 tonnage because most mechs only have a main weapon and a backup. You can get a handle on basics without being overwhelmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Scarecrow Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 What I'm thinking of is so that new players get a feel of the mechanics first then add more powers. It's like teaching Battletech. I keep it at 3025 era because that has the basic weapons/equipment then start in the 35-45 tonnage because most mechs only have a main weapon and a backup. You can get a handle on basics without being overwhelmed. I agree, starting slow is good, new players shouldn't probably use the high end rules and go something far lower. Perhaps skills/stat only at first, then introduce building powers depending on the character concept. Alternatively if they already have an established character say from D&D, doing a conversion so they more or less have the same character they are already familiar with. Some time ago (I think before the forums got changed) there was a topic on making 50pt characters (not sure exactly, could have been 25+25, or 50+50, or 50+75, etc) and how to make James Bond and other low level characters we'd see in our world. This does remind me of teaching friends Mahjong while learning it myself (got the basics from watching anime). Took something like 5 sessions. Rather than a huge list of rules, the first couple sessions were just building the wall, where to cut the wall, and getting sets of 3 and 4 tiles to go out. Later added calling on tiles we wanted/needed and how to do that (Pon, Kan). Later added in points and scoring, finally added in the idea of special hands. It was very enjoyable working up, as no one felt rushed (although calling on tiles or taking your turn too fast did annoy others). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Even a 50 point character is a highly skilled person, but teaching mechanics in a programmed way is a good idea. That was how old school wargames did it - a series of scenarios with each new one adding more rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Era Scarecrow I don't think you would need to go that low in points. Just use characters similar to the original Enemies books. Basically 1 attack, 1 defense, 1 movement power. As a GM I would encourage you to write down notes if you want to use your power in a way that isn't bought yet. In game allow of course power trick roll! For example, a elastic type guy might not have bought the ability to "grow" through stretching. Allow the roll then with the extra CP, allow the player to purchase the ability for the next game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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