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How do you calculate a +SPD power in the middle of a fight?

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Because one first sees the 6 SPD characteristic, then the "+4 SPD" unified power and assumes that is the framework slot, not reading to the +6 SPD VPP slot further below.I assume that slot can add any amount of SPD from +1 to +6, so SPD could be highly variable. I'm also guessing it has never seen play or you would tell us how you have handled it rather than asking how we would.If it were a "toggle switch" - i.e. he either has SPD 6 or SPD 12, I'd be tempted to say the current phase remains SPD 6, or SPD 12, after which he next moves on the next phase of his new SPD. That is, the next segment if he went up to SPD 12, or the next even numbered segment if he dropped down to SPD 6. As long as there is no advantage to flicking the switch repeatedly, I see no big issue.However, the tougher assessment is what if he goes up to SPD 12, then needs the VPP for something else, so he drops to SPD 9, then pumps it back up to SPD 11, etc.Regardless of the method chosen, this would also be one of those powers that comes with the standard "if it slows the game down, it will have to be changed or removed" caveat. Tracking phases in a turn (Era Scarecrow's note) is a good check on any rule adopted. If switching speeds gains more phases in a turn than the higher of the two, or results in less than the lower of the two, that's clearly an inappropriate result so the approach needs to change.My gut feel is that Doc D's approach - move on the later of the original and new SPD's next phases - would work reasonably well. Applied to the toggle switch, that would mean a shift up to SPD 12 from 6 means you act next on the next even numbered phase, so one phase is lost before the benefits kick in. That's probably OK balance-wise (and I am also not unhappy it will discourage frequent switching). I could also see allowing the shift up to 12 mean you get an action in the next phase, but switching back to 6, if done on a segment in which SPD 6 does not act, is the only action you may take on that segment.hmmm...that's another possibility - if you change SPD on a segment both old and new SPD would act on, you move on the phases of the new SPD after that phase. If you change SPD on a segment the new SPD gets no action in, your next action occurs on the next segment your new SPD would act on, or the next segment your old SPD would act on, whichever is later. After that, the new SPD applies.So if Flash goes from SPD 6 to SPD 12, since he had a phase to switch, and SPD 12 acts on all segments, he now acts on all segments. If he ups his SPD from 6 to 8, we look at the chart. If he changes on Segment 2, both SPD 6 and 8 had an action - he can move next on 3 (switching up to SPD 8). If he changes on Segment 4, SPD 8 would have had no action, so he has effectively already taken his Ph 5 action for SPD 8. He will move next on Segment 6, when both SPD 6 and 8 would have their subsequent phase.If, on phase 9, he drops back down to 6 SPD, then he has already taken his Ph 10 action for SPD 6, and moves next on Segment 12.This seems reasonable, but maybe it leaves some way to game the chart - anyone?

Because one first sees the 6 SPD characteristic, then the "+4 SPD" unified power and assumes that is the framework slot, not reading to the +6 SPD VPP slot further below.I assume that slot can add any amount of SPD from +1 to +6, so SPD could be highly variable. I'm also guessing it has never seen play or you would tell us how you have handled it rather than asking how we would.If it were a "toggle switch" - i.e. he either has SPD 6 or SPD 12, I'd be tempted to say the current phase remains SPD 6, or SPD 12, after which he next moves on the next phase of his new SPD. That is, the next segment if he went up to SPD 12, or the next even numbered segment if he dropped down to SPD 6. As long as there is no advantage to flicking the switch repeatedly, I see no big issue.However, the tougher assessment is what if he goes up to SPD 12, then needs the VPP for something else, so he drops to SPD 9, then pumps it back up to SPD 11, etc.Regardless of the method chosen, this would also be one of those powers that comes with the standard "if it slows the game down, it will have to be changed or removed" caveat. Tracking phases in a turn (Era Scarecrow's note) is a good check on any rule adopted. If switching speeds gains more phases in a turn than the higher of the two, or results in less than the lower of the two, that's clearly an inappropriate result so the approach needs to change.My gut feel is that Doc D's approach - move on the later of the original and new SPD's next phases - would work reasonably well. Applied to the toggle switch, that would mean a shift up to SPD 12 from 6 means you act next on the next even numbered phase, so one phase is lost before the benefits kick in. That's probably OK balance-wise (and I am also not unhappy it will discourage frequent switching). I could also see allowing the shift up to 12 mean you get an action in the next phase, but switching back to 6, if done on a segment in which SPD 6 does not act, is the only action you may take on that segment.hmmm...that's another possibility - if you change SPD on a segment both old and new SPD would act on, you move on the phases of the new SPD after that phase. If you change SPD on a segment the new SPD gets no action in, your next action occurs on the next segment your new SPD would act on, or the next segment your old SPD would act on, whichever is later. After that, the new SPD applies.So if Flash goes from SPD 6 to SPD 12, since he had a phase to switch, and SPD 12 acts on all segments, he now acts on all segments. If he ups his SPD from 6 to 8, we look at the chart. If he changes on Segment 2, both SPD 6 and 8 had an action - he can move next on 3 (switching up to SPD 8). If he changes on Segment 4, SPD 8 would have had no action, so he has effectively already taken his Ph 5 action for SPD 8. He will move next on Segment 6, when both SPD 6 and 8 would have their subsequent phase.If, on phase 9, he drops back down to 6 SPD, then he has already taken his Ph 10 action for SPD 6, and moves next on Segment 12.This seems reasonable, but maybe it leaves some way to game the chart - anyone?

 

 

Hugh you are correct that I have never played the character. I constructed all of the vpp slots with the intent that they're almost always using 60 active or at least 40 real. It is also intended to functionally be used like a multi power.

 

In the case of the +6 speed the assumption is therefore that it's only to double his default 6 so as to keep this very question as simple as possible. The other question is when does he regain access to the vpp points assigned to this slot when he drops back to a 6 speed? Is it the same as the speed change or is it an extra phase? Using this slot basically has lockout built in.

 

 

HM

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Barry is a normal person with a 2 speed. His connection to the Speedforce (Unified) gives +4 speed for a total 6 speed under normal circumstances. He has a vpp that allows 2 60 active point abilities to be used simultaneously. One such slot is + 6 speed that costs end to activate (Providing a 12 total speed).

 

HM

 

Okay, I see now. 

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I have been trying to think of a form of words that is not too long but covers the potential for switching to minmax the speed chart.

 

The best .I have so far is..

 

"When you change speed mid-turn, look at the next phase for both current and new speeds. Your next action will take place on whichever of those phases is later in the turn, you will then use your new speed's action phases exclusively. Like an attack, changing speed ends your current phase".

 

That will be my house rule on speed changing.

 

Doc

 

Doc, isn't that basically the standard 6e rule, just stated slightly differently?

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Doc, isn't that basically the standard 6e rule, just stated slightly differently?

Nope. In the official interpretation of that text a SPD 4 character deciding to switch SPD 6 on segment 6 would next act on segment 12 as segment 9 is not common to SPD 6. With my rule, the next action is segment 9. With my rule the player would gain 5 actions that turn: 3,6,9,10 and 12 as opposed to the official interpretation where he would have 3 actions: 3,6 and 12.

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Hang on. Here's the CC text (p137):

 

"A character can choose to change his SPD in any of his Phases. After he has changed his SPD he cannot act (though he may Abort; see below) unitl both SPDs would have had a Phase. As soon as both segments occur, the character can begin to act at his current SPD. A character cannot temporarily choose to act at a lower SPD so he can act again sooner." (emphasis mine).

 

I cannot see how the above text could be read as "the next segment that both SPDs have in common".

 

SPD 4 declares during their Phase 6 they are changing to SPD6. SPD 6 gets a phase on segment 8 (tick that off); SPD 4 gets a phase segment 9 and is now considered SPD 6. They act on Phase 10.

 

So while I do now see the difference between CC and your rule (and I certainly can't see any real issues with yours), it's 4 actions vs 5, not 3 vs 5.

 

I'd also not taken in the clause forbidding dropping SPD to act earlier. That does take the sting out of the 3/4 and 5/7 yoyo.

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Hmm.  I might be remembering a ruling under 5th edition but the example text in 6th Ed (I dont have a digital CC to reference).

 

"Suppose the cheetah form was SPD 7.  After Storvak changes form on his SPD 3 phase in segment 4, SPD 7's next phase would be in segment 6.  Normally it would also get a phase in Segment 7 but SPD 3 hasn't got another phase yet, so Storvak cannot act.  SPD 3 gets its next phase in segment 8.  Since SPD 7 doesn't get a phase in segment 8, Storvak still can't act.  In segment 9, SPD 7 gets its next phase and that means Storvak can act."

 

That is your interpretation - it does not push it all the way back to segment 12 but it does indicate that the next segment that the higher speed can act is the first segment after the lower speed would have been able to act again (the same segment if the segments phases begin coincide).

 

I will see if I can find the older ruling that I obviously still have in my brain...

 

Doc

 

 

PS: it was indeed the RAW for 5th Edition though all the references I got to that were in discussions about 6th Edition referencing back to 5th...

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Hmmm... another thought coming to mind. When changing speed make it a full phase action (if going up, if going down and it's a shared phase you keep it). Afterall the rules are mostly to keep SPD changes from being abused. So...

 

 

Going up in speed: you at least won't lose anything, at the very least you'll still have the same number (or more) phases than before

 

Going down in speed: You can only keep the current phase if it was a shared phase anyways.

 

 

Sorta the opposite of my previous suggestion of sacrificing your next phase... this seems far simpler and easier.

 

 

Or... you could just say if it wasn't a shared phase it takes the full phase (or sacrificing it), even simpler...

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Ha, good point.  I think the default rule of changes take place in Post-segment 12 works for this.  I would hate to do anything that discouraged players from changing speed at that time...

Considering combat starts on phase 12 which everyone gets (except SPD 1) it's the best time to start your speed up to whatever you expect to be using... Although I think it also makes it easy to default to the SPD on the character sheet without explicitly having to say it, far easier to say if you didn't speed up or took a different speed for some reason.

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For 5th Ed Revised the default that the switch occurs Post-12.

 

p357:

 

"A character who wants to use a lower SPD can decide to lower his SPD in the Post-Segment 12 period...Similarly, a character cannot return to his normal SPD after voluntarily reducing it until Post-Segment 12.

"These rules also apply to raising SPD through means other than Adjustment Powers; Adjustment Powers us the optional rule..."

 

 

 The optional rule specifies that the new SPD is adopted on the next Phase that the two SPDs have in common.

 

I've not done many characters who could change SPD in combat because I didn't like the way it worked.  I like the 6E version much better.

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So should Flash be allowed to activate his +6 SPD on phase 12 at the beginning of combat to then be able to act on phase 1?

 

HM

 

As I read it, no. He declares the speed change at some point in his Phase 12 and then cannot act until SPD 6 and SPD 12 have both had phases. SPD 12 gets one on segment 1, SPD 6 gets one on segment 2, and at that point Flash becomes SPD 12 and can act as SPD 12 also has a phase in segment 2.

 

CC doesn't mention the old "Change SPD in Post-12" rule, but I can't see that using it as well as the mid-turn rule is going to cause much problem.

 

In regards to 5e... not much of an optional rule if you have to use it for Drains and Aids!

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This happens so rarely I never bothered looking for any official ruling. For the rare times it has happened, I ignore the old SPD and start with the next available phase for the new SPD. Having read the official rule, I'll stick with how I do it: the players are fine with the way we do it and if they're happy, so am I.

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I agree that most don't, but the RAW has to take that into account. Voluntary mid-term speed changes don't appear to be a regular rule until 6e (I wasn't sure about 5e, but it's been posted above). The "next common phase" rule was optional in 5e, but if I read it right, would have hit some bizarre situations such as an external SPD Aid on a Phase 2 that increased SPD from 5 to 7 preventing the target from acting at all until segment 12 (if you apply the 6e standard rule that gives them a Phase 4 action and 6 total actions for the Turn). If it was less effective and only boosted them to SPD 6, they would act on Phase 8 and 10 as well as 12 (6e will see them act at SPD 6 from Phase 4 for 5 total actions).

 

That may not have even been deliberate gaming of the chart - the Aid may have been intended to boost up the target for that turn to get some vital task done.

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Hugh you are correct that I have never played the character. I constructed all of the vpp slots with the intent that they're almost always using 60 active or at least 40 real. It is also intended to functionally be used like a multi power.

 

In the case of the +6 speed the assumption is therefore that it's only to double his default 6 so as to keep this very question as simple as possible. The other question is when does he regain access to the vpp points assigned to this slot when he drops back to a 6 speed? Is it the same as the speed change or is it an extra phase? Using this slot basically has lockout built in.

 

 

 

I'd have to say he regains the points at the start of his next phase as he has "used" his SPD already in this phase.

 

So should Flash be allowed to activate his +6 SPD on phase 12 at the beginning of combat to then be able to act on phase 1?

 

HM

 

I'd allow that - he had a phase in Segment 12 at either speed, so there is no abuse.

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Essentially trying to gain actions in a turn through judicious changes to SPD.

 

Doc

 

Fortunately, that's never happened in our campaign.

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Am I missing something? Isn't it as simple as loose a turn (action) from both Speeds then use the new Speed?

Not in the rules as written but it comes close. On your rule switching from SPD 3 to SPD 7 on segment 4, what segment is the next action?

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