Blazmo Posted September 30, 2017 Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 I've been thinking about starting a Hero game some time soon and I was planning on making it a Heroic-level game. I was thinking of using the optional '1/2 of BODY in damage kills you' rule in order to make the game more lethal but I was also planning on using hit locations with disabling and impairing wounds and I recently heard that this increases the lethality of the game significantly. Is this true and if it is do you think I should use the optional 1/2 BODY rule along with hit locations and impairing/disabling wounds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted September 30, 2017 Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 I've been thinking about starting a Hero game some time soon and I was planning on making it a Heroic-level game. I was thinking of using the optional '1/2 of BODY in damage kills you' rule in order to make the game more lethal but I was also planning on using hit locations with disabling and impairing wounds and I recently heard that this increases the lethality of the game significantly. Is this true and if it is do you think I should use the optional 1/2 BODY rule along with hit locations and impairing/disabling wounds? Yes, using hit locations and impairing/disabling wounds can significantly increase lethality. A lot does still depend on things like the ratio of damage to defenses; if you allow high defense and resistant defense relative to the amount of damage you allow, your game will be less dangerous. But if you're using disabling wounds, you should probably not use that 1/2 BOD=dead rule. Lucius Alexander Do you have a hit location chart for a palindromedary? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Scarecrow Posted September 30, 2017 Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 I foresee a lot of hospital visits... (REC's BODY recovered per month...) Unless someone has regeneration or healing w/regrow limbs... I'm reminded of Spoony... beginning of the first round, dead... yeah... (still the whole thing's worth watching) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted October 1, 2017 Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 limits on resistant defense, use of hit locations, disabling/impairing wounds, bleeding rules, and "Realistic" recovery times(modified according to conditions of recovery--hospital bed rest/rest but not in a hospital/rough conditions or continued activity level) can all make combat pretty lethal. In theory one could add infection rules for pre-20th century settings--about half of all fatalities in the civil war, iirc, were due to infections and disease. Absent those optional rules, body is essentially kind of an abstraction to represent the relative survivability of a character and loss of body generally represents serious health impairment. But with the optional rules, you know where the injury happens(hit locations), it's degree of severity(disabling/impairing), the supplemental impairments associated with the injury, and whether the injury is becoming worse(bleeding). An untreated injury causing an initial 4-6 body is potentially lethal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Scarecrow Posted October 1, 2017 Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 and "Realistic" recovery times <snip> In theory one could add infection rules for pre-20th century settings--about half of all fatalities in the civil war, iirc, were due to infections and disease. <snip> and whether the injury is becoming worse(bleeding). An untreated injury causing an initial 4-6 body is potentially lethal. Very likely there would be a large compulsion from both NPC and PC's that fighting would be an activity of last resort. While good for Drama and heavy skill based games, it would be much less combat intensive (as you're not sure if you'll survive or even be able to keep going after you get injured). If there's infection, or bad medical technology/ability in the area... Might have a near-mandatory complication, Psychological Complication: Fear for your life (Frequent, Major) simulating hesitation to get into a fight (to the death), and willingness to compromise, or the willingness to put down lethal means and go non-lethal, perhaps betting the result with a one-on-one between two of your guys in a boxing match. But then there will still be crazy people, and those premeditated who are 'all or nothing' and if you fight them they will open fire without thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 1, 2017 Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 Dialling all the options to maximum is pretty lethal. With hit locations you're very likely to eliminate a target with a single hit (impaired head or torso hit = dead). Its very spiky, you do normal damage, or tear someone up massively, often killing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted October 1, 2017 Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 I suggest running some test combats to get a feel for both how much lethality and how much extra time implementing those options will add. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted October 1, 2017 Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 The full suite of optional damage effects also includes wounding(ego roll per phase, -1 per 2 body, for the wounded character to do anything that phase), knockdown/knockback(which, with hit locations, could lead to a whole new world of pain), and the critical hit rule(make roll by half or less and do max damage). All of those combined are likely to lead to short, lethal combats, or alternatively to combats where a much greater emphasis on defense and evasion exists. Characters in the open will run, dodge or fall prone to lower their exposure to gunfire. Seeking cover will be the preferred route. If in melee, blocks and dodges will be the norm, and attack maneuvers may happen with levels committed first to DCV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Scarecrow Posted October 1, 2017 Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 All of those combined are likely to lead to short, lethal combats, or alternatively to combats where a much greater emphasis on defense and evasion exists. You might see a few characters running around in full plate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasBroot Posted October 1, 2017 Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 I was toying with this idea but as one player pointed out 'you've set attack DC vs defense limits in a way that an average hit does 7 stun to a hero or important villain. It becomes 35 instead because everyone takes 8 PSL called shot: head with their favorite attack if nothing else - it's the only way to increase your damage.' The hit location rules themselves aren't terrible, on average - an unlucky hit (said headshot) can spice things up (and get remembered for years - I once won a super-heavy vs super-heavy Battletech local gamestore tournament round with a first round lucky AC20 hit with my Atlas to a King Crab's head) . If you implement hit locations, though, the expectation may be that someone can try and hit one of them deliberately. That's where the pain really comes in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Scarecrow Posted October 1, 2017 Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 The hit location rules themselves aren't terrible, on average - an unlucky hit (said headshot) can spice things up. If you implement hit locations, though, the expectation may be that someone can try and hit one of them deliberately. That's where the pain really comes in. Add fairly cheap penalty skill levels to offset the disadvantage of targeting the head... increasing intentional headshots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted October 1, 2017 Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 Might have a near-mandatory complication, Psychological Complication: Fear for your life (Frequent, Major) simulating hesitation to get into a fight (to the death), Grace under Fire rules for people with no combat experience whatsoever works particularly well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted October 1, 2017 Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 To see the effectiveness of head-shots see my John Wick / Keanu Reeves build (link in signature below). HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted October 1, 2017 Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 If there are DC limits, and buying PSLs to increase damage becomes commonplace, might I suggest charging the active points of such PSLs against any DC cap in the campaign? Treat each level as equivalent to 3 active points. If you want to go whole hog and buy 8 PSLs, then you effectively reduce the damage you roll by 5 Damage Classes. A head shot does x2 Body(after defenses) and x5 Stun(before defenses). That's a pretty big damage bump, so I don't see a problem with offsetting it if the rules get exploited that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 It's pretty much a given if hit locations are in play that head and vital shots are going to dominate for skilled characters, whether through high OCV, normal CSLs, PSLs or a combination. It's one very good reason to be very careful about using the rule in superheroic settings. Also, the PSLs will help the shot hit the location, but don't directly help to hit the target in the first place. OCV 5 with +8 hit location PSLs is still only going to hit DCV 8 on an 8 or less. The eight points might have been better spent on a point of OCV and a 3 point CSL in many cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 You can set up a "balancing rule" where (OCV+CSLs+PSLs/2+MA Maneuver bonus or penalty)+ Damage Classes = X. and even (DCV+CSLs+MA Maneuver bonus or penalty)+Defense(or Def/2)= Y. A lumbering brick doing lots of damage but not being very accurate, vs a nimble martial artist doing modest damage but with high accuracy or even well-placed shots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 I don't have my book handy but I don't think you can buy penalty skill levels for hit location penalties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 I don't have my book handy but I don't think you can buy penalty skill levels for hit location penalties. CC p33. It quite explicitly allows that, and in fact uses "Hit Location Penalties" in the table as the example. Worth noting, however, that the cheap 1pt one only applies to a single attack type. "Punch", "AK-47" or "Longsword". If you want "Pistols" or "Swords" you'd need to pay 2pts per level, and "all attack" levels are 3pt ones. The points start to add up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Scarecrow Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) I don't have my book handy but I don't think you can buy penalty skill levels for hit location penalties. It specifies you can pay for a PSL for a specific attack... not the reason for the penalty. I suppose you can take a -1 disadvantage for (only with strike AND to offset called shots to the head)... He can only use them to reduce or counteract a specific type of negative OCV modifier. A character cannot buy "generic" OPSLs that apply to more than one negative OCV modifier; he must specify which penalty a OPSL applies against when he buys it. 1pt - specific attack 2pt - 3 attacks or tight group 3pt - all attacks edit2: noted mistake looking back up from the chart, you have to name the reason for the PSL... edit: Ninja'd it seems from mrinku Edited October 2, 2017 by Era Scarecrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 I don't have my book handy but I don't think you can buy penalty skill levels for hit location penalties. Pretty sure you buy them as called shot penalty skill levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 OK so basically you can buy them for a hit location (one) but not "hit locations" So 8 levels to offset targeting head, not 8 levels to target what I want. Of course you can just buy levels for that. If your GM lets you buy that high an OCV... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 OK so basically you can buy them for a hit location (one) but not "hit locations" So 8 levels to offset targeting head, not 8 levels to target what I want. Of course you can just buy levels for that. If your GM lets you buy that high an OCV... No. All PSLs can be used vs whatever location the character targets with each attack. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 As I read it, you can use Hit Location PSLs to target any hit location, but only with the category of attack it was bought for. CC, p33: "The character must choose at purchase whether a PSL is offensive or defensive, and what specific penalty it applies to. Examples include a sniper who excels at hitting targets from a distance, a sharpshooter who can hit an opponent in the hand as easily as the chest, or a wrestler who's as hard to hit on the ground as he is standing up." You specifically cannot use these to offset the standard OCV penalty imposed by a combat maneuver, nor to counteract the unfamiliar weapon penalty. In the table that gives the costs, the OCV examples are: 1pt A single attack (e.g., +1 vs Hit Location targeting with Longsword) 2pt A tight group of attacks (e.g.,+1 vs Hit Location targeting with Swords) 3pt All attacks (e.g., +1 Hit Location targeting with all attacks) CC doesn't have any examples of Hit Locations CSLs I could find (Arrowhead has some for Range Penalties and some for the penalties for throwing unbalanced objects), likely because Hit Locations are commonly not used in Superheroic campaigns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 No. All PSLs can be used vs whatever location the character targets with each attack. But this is the rule: !A character cannot buy "generic" OPSLs that apply to more than one negative OCV modifier; he must specify which penalty a OPSL What does that mean? In the table that gives the costs, the OCV examples are: 1pt A single attack (e.g., +1 vs Hit Location targeting with Longsword) 2pt A tight group of attacks (e.g.,+1 vs Hit Location targeting with Swords) 3pt All attacks (e.g., +1 Hit Location targeting with all attacks) Right but is that all hit locations or one hit location? Because 8 points for Bob to negate all hit locations for his sword is... kinda broken you know what I mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Scarecrow Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Right but is that all hit locations or one hit location? All hit locations I believe, as it would be to counter the penalty to called shots... Although if you want to target the head and/or vitals as your MO that would be your thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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