Q: Buzzsaw's Duplicate Weapon Costs

[MuensterCheese]

In Champions Villains, Volume III, page 60, there is a character sheet for Buzzsaw.  Listed in his Powers are his two Buzzsaw Shooter Gauntlets.  The first costs 38 CP and the second costs 5 for the exact same weapon.  Can someone explain to me what rule is being employed to get this kind of discount?  I ask because there is a PC in my group who has multiple pistols of the same make and model (same powers, advantages, and disadvantages) and I had him pay the same amount for each one.  Thanks, experts!

[Era Scarecrow]

5 points? I'm assume it's the adder; With powers/equipment you can pay +5 points per double the equipment. So pay 5pts you get 2, pay 10 you get 4, pay 15 you get 8, etc etc...

This doesn't mean you can USE them at the same time, just you have say backups of them...
 

THE 5-POINT DOUBLING RULE

At the GM's option, characters in any type of campaign may double the number of a particular piece of equipment, weapon, or object they have for +5 points. Thus, if a sword costs 20 Character Points, for 25 points the character could have two such swords. This is a quick and easy way to simulate characters who carry lots of "back-up" weapons or who want to own a fleet of vehicles.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Era Scarecrow

[Hyper-Man]

Depending on what they do they can be used simultaneously.

 

See my rookie Spider-Man in the Download section for an obvious example with his webshooters.

 

HM

[MuensterCheese]

Cool, thanks!  I have 6E2 in book form and PDF but I just couldn't figure out what to search for.  That should decrease how much that PC in our group has to pay for pistols.  And he can probably buy more!  (And, yes, it's a superheroic campaign, not a heroic one).

[Era Scarecrow]

Cool, thanks!  I have 6E2 in book form and PDF but I just couldn't figure out what to search for.  That should decrease how much that PC in our group has to pay for pistols.  And he can probably buy more!  (And, yes, it's a superheroic campaign, not a heroic one).

Hmm... personally even in superheroic I'd say if weapons were pre-made you could use in game money and go the WF route (possibly requiring a perk of a license to carry/concealed carry)... then again they have a tendency to jam, break, get stolen/confiscated, sliced, require maintenance, have to be re-bought later, and should be weaker than powers you outright buy (Not to mention bulk, weight, purchasing ammo separately, etc).

 

Honestly if I have a martial artist I'm not going to pay points for swords/martial weapons since the strength damage I do is generally going to be far better/higher anyways, so being familiar with them only comes into play if say he's in the public eye in his secret identity, so using free equipment he's familiar with is less effective than if he just punched them, but standing out isn't in his plans, thus what benefit he gets will be less.

 

Check 6E2 p.180 under The Effect of Free Equipment where it will talk about having free equipment in your game.

 

Depending on what they do they can be used simultaneously.

Agreed. I was meaning more along the lines of if it requires 2 hands... well, having 5 shotguns you'd have 4 you can't actively use (unless you have extra limbs for example).

[phydaux]

I was playing in a supers game.  My character was a a reformed supervillain who wore power armor.  The character had a Deep Cover identity of his old Villain ID, and he paid 5 points to have an extra set of power armor still painted in his villain color scheme. 

 

Every now and then he'd put on his old villain armor and blow stuff up that he couldn't in his superhero persona.

[mrinku]

Hmm... personally even in superheroic I'd say if weapons were pre-made you could use in game money and go the WF route (possibly requiring a perk of a license to carry/concealed carry)... then again they have a tendency to jam, break, get stolen/confiscated, sliced, require maintenance, have to be re-bought later, and should be weaker than powers you outright buy (Not to mention bulk, weight, purchasing ammo separately, etc).

 

Honestly if I have a martial artist I'm not going to pay points for swords/martial weapons since the strength damage I do is generally going to be far better/higher anyways, so being familiar with them only comes into play if say he's in the public eye in his secret identity, so using free equipment he's familiar with is less effective than if he just punched them, but standing out isn't in his plans, thus what benefit he gets will be less.

 

 

If you're the GM you can set whatever campaign rules you want regarding points for equipment. But expect it to become a Dark Champions style game fairly fast, given typical players.

 

As far as Martial Artists being better with their fists over swords etc... well, that depends on the build. It's only one point to add a weapon element, and sometimes a big killing attack, or some extra dice from a HA is useful. If players don't have to pay points, expect even Bricks to routinely carry around a sturdy club.

 

"Okay Brute Boy, you've been using that "found" crowbar as a +3d6 HA a bit too much lately. I'm afraid you'll need to pay for it."

"Nope. You said normal equipment was okay. And if Flying Dragon Monk gets their friggin' sword for nuthin', I'm keepin' this little equaliser."

(Zap Guy speaks up)

"Hey! I paid full points for the same total DC in my Blast! I want a rebate!"

[Era Scarecrow]

As far as Martial Artists being better with their fists over swords etc... well, that depends on the build. It's only one point to add a weapon element, and sometimes a big killing attack, or some extra dice from a HA is useful. If players don't have to pay points, expect even Bricks to routinely carry around a sturdy club.

Except the equipment are also automatic equalizers by themselves.

 

!!!If I'm wrong please someone correct me!!!

 

Let's take the club example, +3d6 HA, which is more or less 12pts for free. But it can only add damage to 15pts of strength, capping you at 30AP or 6d6 damage. Go higher and the object breaks (at least that's how I understand it). You might go higher with bonuses from martial attacks but that's only up to +4d6 more at best. (same rules apply for killing attacks)

 

Now in a AP cap of 70 points, you can do a STR of 70 giving you 14d6. Picking up a club you drop your damage down to 6D6. So if you have a really high strength to the maximum the setting puts, using weapons don't really help much and only slow you down.

[mrinku]

Let's take the club example, +3d6 HA, which is more or less 12pts for free. But it can only add damage to 15pts of strength, capping you at 30AP or 6d6 damage. Go higher and the object breaks (at least that's how I understand it). You might go higher with bonuses from martial attacks but that's only up to +4d6 more at best. (same rules apply for killing attacks)

 

 

The point is valid, but depends on the material the club is made from. The normal rule for casual clubs is to apply the body done to the object you are hitting with, so sufficient DEF will prevent it breaking. There IS a cap on damage based on the object's PD+BODY, and a maximum of doubling the normal STR damage. But if the club is sufficiently sturdy it can be used without too much problem.

 

HA itself has no cap - you simply add the dice to STR damage, and have to use at least ½d6. It does not use the same rules as HKA.

 

If Brute boy has picked up a titanium alloy bar from somewhere (maybe he sees a lot of supervillain bases smashed up?) it's not going to be easily damaged. Even a typical crowbar is going to take a lot of punishment.

 

Or, failing a convenient piece of debris, he could just go on the internet and order one:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Titanium-8-1-1-Round-Bar-2-x-12-/151042520335

 

And, if he actually purchases a weapon club, the casual club rule doesn't even apply.

[Era Scarecrow]

The point is valid, but depends on the material the club is made from. <snip>

 

If Brute boy has picked up a titanium alloy bar from somewhere (maybe he sees a lot of supervillain bases smashed up?) it's not going to be easily damaged. Even a typical crowbar is going to take a lot of punishment.

That would likely be a rarity, weapons are usually made out of common materials, steel wood bone or something else.

 

 

HA itself has no cap - you simply add the dice to STR damage, and have to use at least ½d6. It does not use the same rules as HKA.

Maybe not, but nearly all weapons need to be built with a STR minimum, how many hands and likely a weight, and real weapon. The Titanium alloy bar? Perhaps it weighs say 600kg, so Min STR 23, two hands... you're losing 4.5DC just to wield it, depends on how much it gives in return. On top of that I doubt you're going to be able to repair it so it quickly will break down, not exactly built as a weapon and not exactly hardened to perfection (perhaps it's too heated and is brittle, or underheated and is soft so bends giving you a worse OCV/DCV every time you use it). So how much BODY PD/ED it has ultimately is up to the GM (unless you paid for it )

 

Actually the bar probably wouldn't qualify as a normal weapon familiarity either, so you'd probably get... what was it... -2 to -4 OCV using it by default? Hmmm...

 

Most HA also are built to be maneuvers (although it does mention clubs), so that's more technique rather than brute force. Killing attacks on the other hand are based on piercing and rendering direct damage.

[Ninja-Bear]

Era that is technical rule that I first saw in 5thr. Even then Steve Long pointed out that almost everyone ignores it.

[mrinku]

Era, I literally provided a link where you can buy a 2" diameter, 12" length Titanium bar off eBay for $60. I did a rough calculation and they weigh a couple of kilos (Titanium is lighter than steel). It's neither rare nor particularly expensive. Maybe Brute Boy ordered a gross of 'em?

 

You should also check the improvised weapon rules again. Damage is based on PD as well as BODY; a car may crumple after a couple of swings and a rock shatter, but an object with sufficient PD is fine. STR MIN doesn't apply - that's something you apply to power built weapons. Stuff you can easily pick up and hit people with has its own rules.

 

And I'll apologise - scratch the 3d6 HA in the original example and just go with it as an improvised weapon, which was really where I intended to come at it from anyway.

 

It's not going to be hard for a player have their character order a real world titanium alloy club to any specified dimensions for a few hundred bucks, tops. You'd certainly pay less than for a decent sword. If you let the gun nuts load up on shooters for money and the ninjas do the same with swords and pyrotechnics, you're going to have to accept this sort of thing too. Or at least arguments with the player who thinks it's a great idea.

 

WF? Sure. Burn a point for that.

[Era Scarecrow]

Must have missed the link. Hmmm looks like pipes rather than bars. what I expected mentally was more akin to I beams or an unrefined nugget. Sorry on that.

 

Still weapons have a maximum they can deal. Can you purchase your own HA to supplement something you get for free? Maybe, but not as I understand it, or if you do it has reduced penetration. Maybe the weapon takes full damage to itself along with dealing it to the opponent, taking BODY until it breaks, you're probably talking 6body and 6 pd/ed.  I'd have to find the rules exactly on this again, but going over isn't good for any 'free' equipment/weapon.

 

Currently retooling a drafted character to use 'real' weapons. A Katana does 1 1/2D6 (5DC's) with a minimum strength of 12. to get 3D6 he would need 37-40 STR to max (give him 10DCs). Add martial maneuvers often giving 2DC's damage, so the best he could hope for is 12DC's of damage, only 5 of which are 'free' but can be taken away.

 

 A No-Daichi is listed as 2D6 (6DC) with str 17 (2h), so to max at 12DC he'd need 47-55STR, and maneuvers giving him 14DC of damage... for a melee-only attack.

 

Also the costs of WF, looked it up again. A single weapon is 1 pt (club, bowie knife, staff, Glock), a group/subclass is 3 (knives, handguns, shotguns), and a common group is 5 (common martial weapons, common melee weapons, common guns).

 

 Honestly during the retooling, it's obvious he would lose his weapons at some point, so having a backup power is likely simulating a blade that can't be removed. If he's using a VPP he could always have a 'weapon' on hand, but if he can spend those points on something else, say... movement, flash attacks, then said weapons give him a fairly minor boost since he doesn't have to allocate/dedicate points.  With my current retooling he has a 120VPP (but control of 40pt), so a HTH attack slot would be at for 5DC's 17pts, (15% of his VPP).

 

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. Maybe he shouldn't be allowed to use real weapons at all; But I don't see why not... It's not like Zap Guy can't decide to pick up a discarded M16 and use it for ranged attacks, or if he doesn't do flash attacks happens across flash-bang grenades and gets to use flash for free (for a number of charges). If the GM rules you can't use free weapons (except improvised and have to leave them behind after the fight) then fine, that works too. But don't forget if you have an income (which most do) you get other things for free as well, a place to stay, vehicles you can driving around in, etc. Obviously not everything will cost points, although things you get for free isn't going to be NEARLY as useful/durable as what you pay points for.

[mrinku]

Don't forget using CSLs to increase DC. Martial Arts are generally more efficient, but sometimes they won't take a HKA to cap. CSLs can also increase RKAs and Normal damage, which may not run in to the issue.

 

And don't get me wrong. I'm NOT saying "don't do this". Allowing money purchase of real world combat gear is a standard campaign rule, the default for Heroic and some kinds of Super settings. I'm just urging caution if the setting is a typical superhero one where you have a mix of equipment based and powers based characters.

 

And most non-combat gear in common use should be either assumed or purchased. I don't make players buy smartphones with points (if they want the equivalent built into their costume, that's another matter...).