Exploring the Possibilities of HERO System

[Demiurgos]

2 hours ago, Lucius said:

That Didn't Happen:  (Total: 80 Active Cost, 65 Real Cost) Extra-Dimensional Movement (Related Group of Dimensions, Single Location), Move from this world to a world where THAT did not happen., Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (50 Active Points) (Real Cost: 50) <b>plus</b> Danger Sense (immediate vicinity, any danger) (30 Active Points); Limited Power Only for use with Trigger for Extradim Move (-1) 11- (Real Cost: 15)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Extra Dimensional Palindromedary

 

Hmm... I like this idea for when the character reached the ultimate expression of his powers. (And HERO System published characters seem to be written with a base powerset and how to make them more or less powerful.) It's like after sensing what's going to happen, from all the potential pathways the future could branch out to from there, he chooses one in which what he doesn't want to happen "didn't happen." "Alternate timeline" is specifically one of the suggested dimensions, so he's moving the world (switched the tracks, so to speak) down the course of a specific alternate timeline in which the undesired event didn't occur.

[steriaca]

14 minutes ago, Demiurgos said:

 

Hmm... I like this idea for when the character reached the ultimate expression of his powers. It's like after sensing what's going to happen, from all the potential pathways the future could branch out to from there, he chooses one in which what he doesn't want to happen "didn't happen." "Alternate timeline" is specifically one of the suggested dimensions, so he's moving the world (switched the tracks, so to speak) down the course of a specific alternate timeline in which the undesired event didn't occur.

Sounds like a power for a Jojo's Bizarre Adventure villain.

[Demiurgos]

19 hours ago, steriaca said:

Sounds like a power for a Jojo's Bizarre Adventure villain.

 

It's interesting you should say that, because I'm actually in the process of reading Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (currently on Chapter 33).

 

When I come up with ideas for powers, I do some research to see if anything like it currently exists, and when posters have made suggestions, I've looked to see if there's any precedent among fictional characters. I referenced Jojo's Bizarre Adventure earlier after coming across Stands in my research, and started reading it to find out more about it. So it's funny that you said this now.

 

The Champions Book of.... lists suggestion for how characters could fit into different genres (which I find cool, since I like to think about how characters could fit into multiple settings), so that would be the character's Stand in a Jojo Bizarre Adventure campaign. While it wasn't deliberate, it's unlikely to be a coincidence that this response came just after I started reading it.

[Lucius]

Those duplicates can be heard, sniffed out, show up on radar, etc. You might want a broader Invisibility.

 

But I was proposing the Extradimensional Movement as  a straightforward way to obviate the need for something like Duplication in the first place. It does what you're trying to do.

 

You don't need Affects Physical World on DEX. If you can use your STR at all, you use it at full DEX unless some Limitation or Complication or circumstance hampers you.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Affects Palindromedary World.

[Doc Democracy]

Lucius picked up on the invisibility and the DEX issue - I was more concerned about the STR.  if the advantage is +2 and the active points spent equals 32 then you are only talking 16 STR??  I would have thought you wanted their STR to be reasonably high to be able to restrain even the action of mega-STR characters.  That was what I was thinking would be your biggest expense.

 

I note Lucius took you to XDM.  It is an option that can be rolled out to almost every situation.  You do get a problem in using a power like that as the players might decide to pick up and move to a dimension where you did not utilise that power.  The big issue is about what the players can do about it.  Moving dimension also suggests that there is a dimension where it did happen and that might be the dimension the players choose to game in...

 

As a one-off where there is a maguffin the heroes can find and a way for them to be aware of the issue then this is a great thing to build.  For a recurring villain or organisation, the players will get tired of it very quickly.

 

 

Doc

 

PS: I know I promised some actual numbers but I have not yet gotten around to digging out 5th Edition.

[Demiurgos]

8 hours ago, Lucius said:

Those duplicates can be heard, sniffed out, show up on radar, etc. You might want a broader Invisibility.

 

When I added that suggestion to my character notes, the first thing I did was go to the rulebook, which says: "When Desolidified, a character cannot be touched, doesn’t register on Sonar or Radar, and emits no scent. " (5ER 147). If they can't be touched, don't register on sonar or radar and don't emit any scent, that would only leave visibility, wouldn't it? If Desolidified characters "cannot affect the physical world in any way" (5ER 148), that would seem to mean Invisibility to Sound, but even if not, it's explicitly stated that Desolidified characters have no scent and don't register on radar.

[Demiurgos]

14 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

Lucius picked up on the invisibility and the DEX issue - I was more concerned about the STR.  if the advantage is +2 and the active points spent equals 32 then you are only talking 16 STR??  I would have thought you wanted their STR to be reasonably high to be able to restrain even the action of mega-STR characters.  That was what I was thinking would be your biggest expense.

 

That was a basic outline of some of the stuff that came to mind immediately to get an idea of the cost, not the final numbers. I just put the character's base strength to have a number there. (I'm unsure why some of the published characters have superstrength. Like, why is it necessary for the Magneto analogue to have 40 STR? The entire point of her powers is that she can make people too heavy to move, make anything weigh nothing, and make anything "fall" in any direction. What on earth would she need superstrength for?) The AoE Telekinesis the power was originally built as was STR 65 which translates as is to HERO, so it'd have to be at least that or there wouldn't be any point in changing the build. Plugging that in gets:

 

Affects Physical World (+2) (132 Active Points) applied to STR

 

Which raises the total cost to 230, which is only a little over half of 450, which doesn't change that it doesn't seem it would actually cost much less than 450.

 

There were limitations in that system where 65 STR was the cap for how high his TK STR could be, while HERO doesn't seem to have such a cap. So without such a cap, there's actually no reason that it has to stay at 65 for the HERO build. Would you recommend more than that, and if so, how much more?

 

I guess I'll use a concrete example. Speaking of "mega STR," Grond is HERO's Hulk analog, so I'll assume he's "the strongest one there is" in the Champions universe. Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks says he has 90 STR. Now, none of the Duplicates should have 90 STR, because if he's the strongest, there shouldn't be any single individual as strong as him, since that's his particular niche. But (and what makes it better than just using an AoE TK), since the character would have multiple duplicates, they can all work simultaneously to restrain him where no single one would be able to do so alone (which is why it would work better than a telekinetic attempting to Grab Grond with a single Telekinetic "limb"), and they would be able to account for Grond's four arms. How strong would each Duplicate need to be in order that, with all of them working together, they would be able to restrain Grond? (Though looking at it, seeing how Grond has an EGO of 8, the character could simply Keep 'em in Line and prevent him from moving that way for a lot less trouble, but this is for establishing how strong each Duplicate would need to be so that they could collectively restrain a "mega-strong" character.)

 

What I was wondering about was SPD. I was looking for a rough estimate for speed of thought (since his consciousness isn't slowed by a physical body) for a SPD number, but it seems SPD x represents how many of the 12 Phases you can act in.

 

Quote

I note Lucius took you to XDM.  It is an option that can be rolled out to almost every situation.  You do get a problem in using a power like that as the players might decide to pick up and move to a dimension where you did not utilise that power.  The big issue is about what the players can do about it.  Moving dimension also suggests that there is a dimension where it did happen and that might be the dimension the players choose to game in...

 

As a one-off where there is a maguffin the heroes can find and a way for them to be aware of the issue then this is a great thing to build.  For a recurring villain or organisation, the players will get tired of it very quickly.

 

 

As aforementioned, I liked it for a "to make character more powerful, do X" option that all the published characters are provided with. With the AoE TK the power was built as, since you have to roll to hit, it doesn't work 100% of the time, and Duplicates also require attack checks (in comics it could just "work," but in an RPG everything has to be rolled out, so it doesn't always work that way in a game). Switching the pathway to one in which the undesired event didn't occur isn't something PCs would have any defense for, or even have any idea is happening, so I wouldn't use it for the base powerset, as it's a bit too powerful for use on a regular basis. But it's perfect for when the character increased his existing powers, as that was one big storyline.

[Doc Democracy]

In most of my campaigns, having up to five invisible, intangible, STR 65 enforcers would make you pretty much the Man.

 

i would be thinking of how you prevent blast attacks...

[Demiurgos]

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

In most of my campaigns, having up to five invisible, intangible, STR 65 enforcers would make you pretty much the Man.

 

Ah, so no changes need to be made then. That's how his Strength of Mind manifests itself.

 

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

i would be thinking of how you prevent blast attacks...

 

Well, blast attacks are explicitly covered by the power:

 

Quote

No Attack Launched Against Me Shall Succeed is an aspect of the power I haven't figured out how to translate into HERO yet. He cannot be harmed by ranged physical or energy attacks, because in order to reach him, they must first pass within his sphere of influence, at which point it's subject to his control. He cannot be sniped, because no matter how far outside his sphere of influence you are, the bullet/arrow/etc. must first enter his sphere of influence in order to reach him, and once it enters his sphere of influence, he can do with it what he wishes. The logic is that once a ranged attack has been released, the attacker no longer has control over it. It travels toward its target, and once it enters his sphere of influence, it then can be commandeered. Melee attacks are different, because the attacker has complete control over their attacks at all times: they can decide to hit with full power, pull their punch, or feint. They have control over their attack the way a ranged attacker does not.

 

Built as TK, blasts are telekinetically deflected away, and reflected on occasion. But the game mechanic used to accomplish this effect doesn't exist in HERO System, which requires it to be built differently. I don't suppose, if the shards of consciousness Duplicates are replacing TK in HERO, that there's a mechanic that could represent them deflecting away blasts? If their STR affects the physical world, then the examples of bullets, arrows and other physical projectiles could be explained as the shards of consciousness Duplicates deflecting them or catching them and then letting them fall to the ground or something. Though them affecting energy that way might be dubious. That's one thing Telekinesis had going for it, it could account for both physical and energy projectiles.

[Lucius]

2 hours ago, Demiurgos said:

 

When I added that suggestion to my character notes, the first thing I did was go to the rulebook, which says: "When Desolidified, a character cannot be touched, doesn’t register on Sonar or Radar, and emits no scent. " (5ER 147). If they can't be touched, don't register on sonar or radar and don't emit any scent, that would only leave visibility, wouldn't it? If Desolidified characters "cannot affect the physical world in any way" (5ER 148), that would seem to mean Invisibility to Sound, but even if not, it's explicitly stated that Desolidified characters have no scent and don't register on radar.

 

Hm, you're right. Techically that leaves sound, but if you are invisible to sonar that might imply invisibility to all hearing.....

 

Lucius Alexander.

 

The palindormedary thinks that is sound reasoning

[Doc Democracy]

Sound reasoning except that it does not reflect what the rules say. 

 

There is nothing in the description that indicates they cannot speak to their friends or cannot hear anyone else.  Indeed it actually says that except for touch group senses, all of a desolidified characters senses, even active ones like radar, work normally.

 

Not a scientific way of looking at it but consistent with the rules.  :-)

[Demiurgos]

37 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

Sound reasoning except that it does not reflect what the rules say. 

 

There is nothing in the description that indicates they cannot speak to their friends or cannot hear anyone else.  Indeed it actually says that except for touch group senses, all of a desolidified characters senses, even active ones like radar, work normally.

 

Not a scientific way of looking at it but consistent with the rules.  :-)

 

Well, I can add Invisibility to Hearing Group, then, it isn't a problem. Since they're representatives of his mind/shards of consciousness that are split off for the sole purpose of preventing unwanted events from happening, they have no reason to speak, since speech isn't required for their function. Telekinesis doesn't talk either, after all, which it was initially built as.

 

Though isn't this an issue of what Senses a Desolidified character can be perceived by rather than what Senses a Desolidified character can use? Invisibility makes a character unperceivable by whatever Sense Group it covers. There's nothing, for instance, that says someone with Invisibility to Hearing Group wouldn't be able to perceive anyone else with Hearing, whereas that would be exactly the case with Darkness to Hearing Groups.

[steriaca]

On 11/1/2017 at 10:37 PM, Demiurgos said:

 

It's interesting you should say that, because I'm actually in the process of reading Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (currently on Chapter 33).

 

When I come up with ideas for powers, I do some research to see if anything like it currently exists, and when posters have made suggestions, I've looked to see if there's any precedent among fictional characters. I referenced Jojo's Bizarre Adventure earlier after coming across Stands in my research, and started reading it to find out more about it. So it's funny that you said this now.

 

The Champions Book of.... lists suggestion for how characters could fit into different genres (which I find cool, since I like to think about how characters could fit into multiple settings), so that would be the character's Stand in a Jojo Bizarre Adventure campaign. While it wasn't deliberate, it's unlikely to be a coincidence that this response came just after I started reading it.

The character I was thinking of is President Funny Valentine and his stand D4C ("Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheep") from the Steel Ball Run storyline and Father Punchi and his stand Made In Heaven from Stone Ocean storyline. D4C can allow Funny to travel to other universes if he goes between two close together objects. Made In Heaven can destroy an entire universe by increase gravity, then enter a new one.

[Demiurgos]

On 11/3/2017 at 9:29 PM, steriaca said:

The character I was thinking of is President Funny Valentine and his stand D4C ("Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheep") from the Steel Ball Run storyline and Father Punchi and his stand Made In Heaven from Stone Ocean storyline. D4C can allow Funny to travel to other universes if he goes between two close together objects. Made In Heaven can destroy an entire universe by increase gravity, then enter a new one.

 

I'll keep an eye out for them. From what I understand, Stands don't enter the picture until the third part, and I'm on the second, where it's all about Ripples.

[Lucius]

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 8:46 AM, Doc Democracy said:

Moving dimension also suggests that there is a dimension where it did happen and that might be the dimension the players choose to game in...

 

 

I don't think it necessarily suggests any such thing. "Extradimensional Movement" is the POWER used to build the ability, not the special effects.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary accuses me of just not being open to suggestions

 

[Doc Democracy]

5 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

I don't think it necessarily suggests any such thing. "Extradimensional Movement" is the POWER used to build the ability, not the special effects.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary accuses me of just not being open to suggestions

 

I was being a bit tongue in cheek here and I strayed into the common problem of assigning special effects to what are game mechanics, something I remind people of all the time.

 

I think the big issue here is when you are using a movement power to achieve other game effects that players have no reasonably common means of countering.

 

Doc

[dmjalund]

the problem of "going to a universe where the problem is solved" is that you leave all your teammates behind, and end up in a place there is probably another version of you

[Lucius]

9 hours ago, dmjalund said:

the problem of "going to a universe where the problem is solved" is that you leave all your teammates behind, and end up in a place there is probably another version of you

 

The character in question doesn't have teammates, just minions.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Teaming up with a palindromedary in the taglien

[Doc Democracy]

I am not a fan of a power working for villains that does not work for heroes, they should all be within the same framework - even if I don't have to optimise the villains to work to a budget.

 

If it is possible to move to another reality, then it is possible.  If the ethos of the power is "moving to a dimension where that did not happen" then it should be possible for a player to do that.  The villain may have minions and the heroes teammates but they all have opponents and the effects of this power impact everyone with few options to prevent it.

 

Doc

 

[Doc Democracy]

10 hours ago, dmjalund said:

the problem of "going to a universe where the problem is solved" is that you leave all your teammates behind, and end up in a place there is probably another version of you

 

Like Lucius says, the SFX are not dictated by the mechanic.  XDM is one of those more difficult to divorce from SFX because when it moves from dimension hopping to moving through alternate realities the SFX become more difficult to divorce from the mechanic.  

 

I have real problems with movement powers used for other purposes, like changing the world to a different one.  Where does that end?