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How would you cause an eclipse?

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I suppose. But Darkness feels like the more direct application of Hero's design-for-effect philosophy since darkness is ultimately the effect desired.

Since is a eclipse that dark? Darkness in Hero means no PER roll possible. (Of the affected sense of course)

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My thoughts exactly.

 

I'd build it as Change Environment with the special effect being a massive mushroom/ tree or whatever growing out of the ground, spreading out and blocking out the sun. Do you have anyone in your campaign who could create suck an effect and who wants those night monsters to attack the PCs? 

 

I think I'd be tempted to make the PC's tamper with something and they somehow create the giant mushroom/tree/whatever works in your campaign, which creates the night effect which unleashes your monsters.

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I'd do it as a plot device and if attempting to dispel it, the difficulty would be the active max of the characters.  So if your spell casters are throwing around 60 active attacks, the points to dispel would be 60 minimum or possibly 80 to make it difficult.  However, that's just what I would do.  YMMV.

That's pretty much exactly what I did during the game. Took the Priest a couple tries to roll high enough, but he got there.

 

But now I feel like overthinking it. :winkgrin:

 

Behold, I Blot Out the Sun!: (Total: 56 Active Cost, 12 Real Cost) Change Environment (-4 to Sight Group PER Rolls, -1 Temperature Level Adjustment, Long-Lasting 1 Hour), Area Of Effect (16m Radius Explosion; +1/4), MegaScale (1m = 10 km; +1 1/4), Cannot alter scale (-1/4) (56 Active Points); OAF Arrangement (candle snuffer & candle; -1 1/4), Extra Time (5 Minutes, Only to Activate, -1), No Range (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) (Real Cost: 12)

I like this a lot! Tho -4 might be a bit too high for an eclipse, maybe -2?

 

Limit a Power w/ "Only During An Eclipse" & set the condition circumstance to (rarely if ever limited; -0).

 

Thus usually there is an eclipse.

:rofl:

 

It depends a lot on context. In a fantasy or mythical setting, moving celestial objects around may not have the same consequences as they would in a superhero or science fiction one. Does Newtonian gravity or any kind of "solar system" even exist? (Even the term "solar system" is quite a modern term - appears to have been first used around 1704).

Totally valid question. In this case, the campaign world is 11th century Europe (plus magic). Muslim astronomy was actually relatively advanced during this period, and one of the characters with SS Astronomy is a Muslim, so she understands the basic concept of a geocentric solar system. (Tho I didn't realize the term was a later addition, thanks.)

 

I suppose. But Darkness feels like the more direct application of Hero's design-for-effect philosophy since darkness is ultimately the effect desired.

That was my first thought too, but I don't want total impenetrable darkness, just a little shade.

 

I also thought about Images, basically the opposite of Create Light. But the +/- X to the PER Roll with Images is supposed to be a measure of how realistic/believable the Image is, not how bright/dark it is.* (Mental Illusions wouldn't work, as you noted, unless the Susceptibility is really a Psych Lim.

 

Creating a floating Force Wall disk to filter out the sun is a great visual, but in this case it sounds more like the sfx rather than the mechanical effect.

 

So yeah, I think CE works well, and doesn't even bust the campaign limits. Thanks!

 

 

* This actually has me rethinking the standard method of using Images to build flashlights & such - seems like CE might actually be the better choice?

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Yeah, the total impenetrability of Darkness makes it unusable in this case. I guess CE is the best choice; it is like bringing in fog I guess, but instead it is bringing in sun-blocking shade to an area. If it works for you, BDH, it works for me. :)

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* This actually has me rethinking the standard method of using Images to build flashlights & such - seems like CE might actually be the better choice?

 

Your lips to Steve's (or whoever the author of the next edition is) ears. Under RAW, using Change Environment to create light is explicitly forbidden. (I started a big discussion thread ~6 months ago on Light spells.) If you want to use CE, I think it would cost 2-3 points per -1 penalty removed.

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You know ancient Astrologists had very accurate undesrtanding when the when the stars were moving-thus science skills. Now the meaning of the stars rising when and where is a different story.

 

I think you mean Astronomers. Astrologers have never understood anything except how gullible the uneducated masses are.

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Your lips to Steve's (or whoever the author of the next edition is) ears. Under RAW, using Change Environment to create light is explicitly forbidden. (I started a big discussion thread ~6 months ago on Light spells.) If you want to use CE, I think it would cost 2-3 points per -1 penalty removed.

Yeah, I sortof get the idea that CE can only add penalties, not remove them, and I'm sure Steve could articulate all the ways that could lead to excessive munchkinism. But...

 

I think you mean Astronomers. Astrologers have never understood anything except how gullible the uneducated masses are.

Heh. Of course this being fantasy, the astronomer is also an astrologer. (Built as Deduction, complimented by Analyze Target's Astrological Profile.)

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No I mean Astrologers.

 

Astrology isn't a science. For one thing it is based on an invalid cosmological model. The scientific method was the very tool that exposed it for the fraudulent "system" that it is.

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Huge amounts of TK - only works on moons

I think it depends on what is actually causing the eclipse (or eclipse-like phenomenon). If the spell is physically moving the moon, then there will be other more catastrophic side effects, so you might want to avoid that.

Thinking about this some more: 560 STR of TK would definitely bust the campaign caps, even before I throw LOS on it. But just for purposes of discussion, if I wanted to handwave all that as Plot Device Power, what would be the other side effects of "nudging" the moon into a slightly different alignment? (Let's assume the moon is already on the right side, so it "only" has to be moved a couple degrees.) Obviously it would alter the tides dramatically and would I assume cause some major tidal waves in the short term. And of course force all the astronomers & astrologers to redraw all their charts. What else?

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Astrology isn't a science. For one thing it is based on an invalid cosmological model. The scientific method was the very tool that exposed it for the fraudulent "system" that it is.

 

Say it ain't so!  You mean I am not totally compatible with Natalie Portman? By the planets and stars, they lie!  I guess I'll have to stick with my tarot cards for now.  :rofl:

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I think you mean Astronomers. Astrologers have never understood anything except how gullible the uneducated masses are.

At the time period in question, there was no such distinction.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Under the Sign of the Palindromedary

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Sure, but the time period of this discussion is, well, today. If BDH is going to tweak the meaning and scope of the Astronomy skill for his campaign, I think it helps to have clear definitions of things.

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At the time period in question, there was no such distinction.

I’m not sure that’s completely correct. Astronomy was the study of the stars, planets, etc. Astrology was the effect those bodies had on Earthly lives. They were of course closely related, and many people regarded them as equally valid, but they were still distinct fields I believe. In fact IIRC several of the great Muslim Astronomers of the age rejected astrology as pseudoscience. I’m on my phone so I can’t find the reference tho.

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Player: "I'd like to attempt an Extraordinary SS:Astronomy Skill Roll to make the moon eclipse."

 

GM: "Okay. I'll let you make the Roll w/ a -20 penaly. Good luck."

 

Player: "I'm taking extra time."

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Player: "I'd like to attempt an Extraordinary SS:Astronomy Skill Roll to make the moon eclipse."

 

GM: "Okay. I'll let you make the Roll w/ a -20 penaly. Good luck."

 

Player: "I'm taking extra time."

it takes you 6 months

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Player: "I'd like to attempt an Extraordinary SS:Astronomy Skill Roll to make the moon eclipse."

 

GM: "Okay. I'll let you make the Roll w/ a -20 penaly. Good luck."

 

Player: "I'm taking extra time."

 

Take enough time, and it will happen.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says I just explained the joke....ooops

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I’m not sure that’s completely correct. Astronomy was the study of the stars, planets, etc. Astrology was the effect those bodies had on Earthly lives. They were of course closely related, and many people regarded them as equally valid, but they were still distinct fields I believe. In fact IIRC several of the great Muslim Astronomers of the age rejected astrology as pseudoscience. I’m on my phone so I can’t find the reference tho.

 

Just because a discipline is a proper science doesn't mean that the scientific method is fully at play, or that in the context of the setting that all or even many of the modern aspects of the science are included.

 

Yeah, Astronomy in the context of the accurate measurement of heavenly bodies is a very ancient discipline, and while entangled with the philosophy of interpreting those measurements, can be gamed as a separate skill, just as any two related skills can. My personal take is to combine them in Astrology, since pure measurement for its own sake without interpretation is a pretty modern thing and largely dates from the telescope era; having them separate feels a bit like having different skills for measuring and interpretation in Navigation (i.e. PS: Sextant Operator and PS: Navigator).

 

Tycho Brahe was as much Astrologer as Astronomer. Copernicus and Kepler were looking for God's plan rather than hermetic wisdom, but are still mystical in the general sense. Newton was an outright Hermetic.

 

Astronomy may help discover what is out there, but it won't determine causes or underlying reality. Just because the science skill exists in the world does not mean that the world conforms to the currently established reality. It may well be perfect circular motion of crystal spheres, moved by the Will of God. SS: Astronomy will allow you to determine the "perfect circular motion" part, but not the rest.

 

Conversely, in a fantasy context if Astrology is real, it may be amenable to rigorous scientific testing! Twin studies would be especially useful!

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Just because a discipline is a proper science doesn't mean that the scientific method is fully at play, or that in the context of the setting that all or even many of the modern aspects of the science are included.

 

Yeah, Astronomy in the context of the accurate measurement of heavenly bodies is a very ancient discipline, and while entangled with the philosophy of interpreting those measurements, can be gamed as a separate skill, just as any two related skills can. My personal take is to combine them in Astrology, since pure measurement for its own sake without interpretation is a pretty modern thing and largely dates from the telescope era; having them separate feels a bit like having different skills for measuring and interpretation in Navigation (i.e. PS: Sextant Operator and PS: Navigator).

 

Tycho Brahe was as much Astrologer as Astronomer. Copernicus and Kepler were looking for God's plan rather than hermetic wisdom, but are still mystical in the general sense. Newton was an outright Hermetic.

 

Astronomy may help discover what is out there, but it won't determine causes or underlying reality. Just because the science skill exists in the world does not mean that the world conforms to the currently established reality. It may well be perfect circular motion of crystal spheres, moved by the Will of God. SS: Astronomy will allow you to determine the "perfect circular motion" part, but not the rest.

 

Conversely, in a fantasy context if Astrology is real, it may be amenable to rigorous scientific testing! Twin studies would be especially useful!

I wasn't implying that either astrology or medieval astronomy were rigorously scientific by modern standards. My point is that they were regarded as separate, distinct fields of study even by people who believed both were real. Plus in early medieval Europe the basics of astronomy were known and studied centuries before astrology was introduced from the Muslim World. And as I mentioned before, many of the most prominent astronomers of the Islamic Golden Age challenged or outright rejected astrology on scientific and/or religious grounds, to include Avicenna, al-Biruni & Alhazen.

 

Remember astronomy had many practical uses completely separate from alleged astrological influences, such as knowing when to plant crops, navigating at night, and particularly for Muslims knowing the correct times to pray, the direction of Mecca, proper orientation when building a Mosque, etc. Not to mention things like, say, predicting eclipses or knowing when there shouldn't be one...

 

Now, in game terms whether it's better to combine them into one skill or keep them separate depends, as always, on the nature of the campaign and how they're likely to come up in play. In this campaign, one character wanted to know astronomy but not astrology, so making some distinction between the two was required right there. And the astrologer character/player saw astronomy as complimentary to astrology, with the latter built as Deduction rather than an SS. It's worked quite well, and them have come up separately enough that I thing the division is justified. If that doesn't fit your campaign, then you're certainly welcome to combine them.

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