Doc Shadow Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 Even the Lich King fears facing Hulk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 3 minutes ago, Doc Shadow said: Even the Lich King fears facing Hulk! That already makes him smarter then Loki. That guy had to learn the hard way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 So, they established that Hela drew her power from Asgard. Destroy Asgard, take down Hela. Makes sense. But they also stated that Thor draws his power from Asgard. So, has he been reduced in power now? That'd be a disappointment right after he figures out that he doesn't need the hammer. And if the "Asgard is the people" refrain is to be used as an out, then that raises questions such as, why didn't they kill the people to de-power Hela instead of the floating space rock? Or, why did Hela have so much power after losing the support (or never having, really) of the people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 Asgard is the people. Most rulers frown upon committing genocide on their own citizens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted November 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 In the myth Asgard is the place, the Aesir is the people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted November 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 5 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said: So, they established that Hela drew her power from Asgard. Destroy Asgard, take down Hela. Makes sense. But they also stated that Thor draws his power from Asgard. So, has he been reduced in power now? That'd be a disappointment right after he figures out that he doesn't need the hammer. And if the "Asgard is the people" refrain is to be used as an out, then that raises questions such as, why didn't they kill the people to de-power Hela instead of the floating space rock? Or, why did Hela have so much power after losing the support (or never having, really) of the people? That has bugged me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 Quote And if the "Asgard is the people" refrain is to be used as an out, then that raises questions such as, why didn't they kill the people to de-power Hela instead of the floating space rock? Or, why did Hela have so much power after losing the support (or never having, really) of the people? Meh, that's just one of those "OK we lost everything but we still have family" things that people say. massey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 6 hours ago, L. Marcus said: Asgard is the people. Most rulers frown upon committing genocide on their own citizens. You realize that was a rhetorical question, right? I'd never condone the genocide of so many fictional aliens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said: Meh, that's just one of those "OK we lost everything but we still have family" things that people say. That's the way I took it. Which is why I discounted it as a possible explanation for leaving Thor at full strength. So, the big question is: Is Thor now just a Doug? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 11 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said: And if the "Asgard is the people" refrain is to be used as an out, then that raises questions such as, why didn't they kill the people to de-power Hela instead of the floating space rock? Or, why did Hela have so much power after losing the support (or never having, really) of the people? Are you seriously suggesting killing the Asgardians as any kind of solution? That's so screwed up I really don't have words. (Edit: okay, "rhetorical". But pretty clumsily framed for such.) As far as support of the people goes... I kind of got the impression that wasn't really required as much as control of them. And she seemed to be more than happy to use the dead ones anyway. Thor's not a Doug. Hulk didn't kill him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, mrinku said: Are you seriously suggesting killing the Asgardians as any kind of solution? That's so screwed up I really don't have words. This is a joke, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, mrinku said: (Edit: okay, "rhetorical". But pretty clumsily framed for such.) Meanwhile, I'm going to blame your lack of attention. Edited November 20, 2017 by Pattern Ghost Added emoticon to indicate friendly banter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 OK, I tried to get the ball rolling on a discussion of the biggest question I was left with from the film, but you all seem to be fixated on accusing me of genocidal thoughts, so I'm just going to skip to the part where I give my thoughts on the subject. Here's what we're given at the end of the movie: 1. Hela is too strong. 2. She draws her power from Asgard. 3. We must unleash Surtur to destroy Asgard and deprive Hela of her power source. That's the plan. It's pretty straightforward. BUT, earlier in the movie were are told: Thor also draws his power from Asgard. Logic tells us that if you destroy Asgard, this will also affect Thor. The movie does not give us information on Thor's status in this regard. After the destruction of Asgard, he isn't seen doing anything more strenuous than having a conversation and sitting in a chair. So, what possibilities are there? First Theory: Asgard is the people. In which case Thor is unaffected by the destruction of the physical location of Asgard and retains his previously shown power levels. Some considerations for this theory: 1. Hela would likewise be unaffected, since the place was destroyed and not the people. 2. This raises the question of how Hela draws power from the people of Asgard, vs. the place being imbued with power. a. She's a Death goddess, but she only shows control over the dead when using the Eternal Flame. So, drawing power from Asgard's dead probably isn't a viable explanation. b. She's not a very positive death goddess. She's not someone who ushers old dogs over the Rainbow Bridge. If anything, she's the scary side of Death, the grim reaper, etc. So, plausible that she draws power from Asgard through feeding on the fear of Asgardians. i. Odin seems to have raised Thor to be the counterbalance to Hela, so it would jibe that he draws power by inspiring hope and positive feelings in the Asgardian people. So, the "Asgard is the people" theory could work. It makes blowing up the place Asgard more of a delaying tactic, and raises the question of why Hela is so strong before even getting to Asgard. Second Theory: Odin didn't tell the whole story. Perhaps the floating land of Asgard is a repository for the Odinforce, and breaking it deprives Hela access, but Thor doesn't need the rock to access the Odinforce. Low probability of anything Odinforce involved in the MCU, IMO. They haven't mentioned it up until now and it doesn't seem like the sort of thing they want to get into. Third Theory: Thor did get depowered, and is now operating at the same level as any other elite Asgardian warrior -- which is still pretty impressive. Perhaps he goes into retirement from the superhero life to rule Asgard and later decides to make a new hammer and empower the next generation of Thor? Possible. I personally think they're going to go something to do with "Asgard is the people," mainly because that's the only thing they gave us in the movie. Second one is "Odin didn't tell Thor everything," because it's a recurring theme. drunkonduty 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 All good thoughts. My impression is that all statements are basically true. Asgard is primarily its people, and Thor's power probably draws from them, but it's also a powerful mythic place and that has to have some effect. In myth Thor has fertility aspects and is strongly associated with farming and prosperity. Hela as a death goddess is probably not so much empowered by the living, and is likely drawing power from the place. I agree that Thor may well have been set up as a deliberate counterbalance to Hela by Odin. Surtur was unleashed to both destroy Asgard and Hela. We never got to see the effect of what his destruction of Asgard had on her, since he destroyed her first. Here's a thought - maybe Odin shifted his own power source from the old ways (place) to a new way (people)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 11 minutes ago, mrinku said: Here's a thought - maybe Odin shifted his own power source from the old ways (place) to a new way (people)? I'm thinking something along those lines may be an option, though one that might require too much screen time for them to attempt. I'm thinking we'll get a simpler version of "Asgard is the people," or not see it addressed directly. I strongly suspect that Hela is going to simply drift in space until some powerful malevolent being (Thanos) senses her and swings by to pick her up. ETA: Though they may not try to shoehorn her into Infinity War. But I don't think we've seen the last of her. Too much awesome to waste there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 Hela stepping in for Mistress Death in regard to Thanos is something that occurred to me already. No reason why she couldn't be his original inspiration. If this Thanos has been around long enough, they may even have crossed paths. Having said that, I'd not like to see them as a team. It'd be sufficient for her to be the ideal he wishes to sacrifice the universe to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 I don't think they'll go there, but you never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 Odin was old, he was dying. He was senile and confused or just trying to pump up his son's confidence with a standard parental white lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 On 19.11.2017 at 1:55 PM, Pattern Ghost said: So, they established that Hela drew her power from Asgard. Destroy Asgard, take down Hela. Makes sense. But they also stated that Thor draws his power from Asgard. So, has he been reduced in power now? That'd be a disappointment right after he figures out that he doesn't need the hammer. And if the "Asgard is the people" refrain is to be used as an out, then that raises questions such as, why didn't they kill the people to de-power Hela instead of the floating space rock? Or, why did Hela have so much power after losing the support (or never having, really) of the people? "Home is where the heart is". For Hela, Asgard (the place) was a sources of Power. Her entire army - with the exception of Scourge - was her own power augmented by closeness to the place. The people were irrelevant, unless she wanted something (like the sword). For Thor and Odin - even Loki and Scourge - Asgard was a Culture, a ideal, the People. The place was irrelevant. Even the power the place may have granted was irrelevant. When we saw Thor fight, he had already been away from Asgard for some time. So we can asume the Arena fight is close ot his "weakened" state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 Or the whole "you get your power from Asgard" was meant to be some kind of statement about his closeness to the people of Asgard. Can't be that many of them left after the invasions of the last two movies, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted November 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Thor Ragnarok passes 700 mill worldwide gross. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted November 27, 2017 Report Share Posted November 27, 2017 I just want to acknowledge that Cate Blanchett absolutely nailed the role of Hela. She was completely convincing as someone with great power and confidence and came across as every bit as threatening and dangerous as she was supposed to be. IMO, she also looked damned good doing it. I found it impressive that she was able to project both "oozing sexy" and "oh hell no, I'm not going near that" at the same time. Mad props to her screen presence and acting ability. mrinku, Pattern Ghost, Ranxerox and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 I saw this last night. It did not suck. I do wish the trailers hadn't given half the movie away, but at least it didn't give the entire movie away the way so many trailers do nowadays. The biggest problem with Thor just buying off the OIF from Mjolnir is the conversion from HKA to RKA. For that you need more of a rad accident. The munchkin in me cringes, because if you already have so many points dumped into STR, why would you not use a physical ranged attack that could add STR damage? This movie had less Double Knockback than JL, but way more Armor Piercing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 I consider the death of the person who created the magic item as a significant radiation accident Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattingly Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 ...and inheriting his mantle as King. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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