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BoloOfEarth

I Can Feel You Through The Web

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No, this isn't a sick internet porn thing.  ;)

 

I'm creating a giant spider creature, and I'd like it to have the ability to lay out fine strands of criss-crossed webbing throughout an area that, if anybody touches / breaks a strand, the spider would feel it through the web and know where the person is.  Ideally, with care (moving relatively slowly and/or using something like Acrobatics) a person could pass through the area without touching a web strand and alerting the Mega-Spidey.

 

My initial thought is to use the Wide-Band Vibro-Sense from the 6E Champions Powers book (p. 353):  Detect Physical Vibrations (Touch Group), Discriminatory, Range, Targeting, 360-Degree Arc, though swapping out the Contact with Ground for Limited Range (10-20m).  But how to model the strand avoidance?  Link it to an AoE Change Environment?  Or some other idea?

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Well, it depends on how you want to play it.

 

You are quite able to build it as a sense, n-ray vision where he can see anyone touching a surface within an area that has been prepared.  Avoiding the strands would mean avoiding those surfaces.

 

you could build it such that it does not work if someone can see the strands (and so avoid them) - which is predicated on not many strands that are difficult to see OR it does not work if someone can avoid the strands - which is predicated on the strands being obvious but difficult to avoid.

 

you could allow for the sense to be blocked by area effect fire attacks which destroy the webbing.

 

I would build it based on the heroes and what might make the better scene...

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I'd not build the "strand avoidance" into the power at all.

 

ALL senses can be avoided through Stealth. To my mind, this is just the special effect of being stealthy through this sense, same as moving from cover to cover for sight or being upwind for smell. Acrobatics and Shrinking come to mind as other things that might help... and obviously Desolid, which effectively has invisibility to Touch sense. 

 

One thing I'd want to add would be that the sense zone isn't mobile. 

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My first attempt:

 

Detect Physical Movement, Sense, Discriminatory, Range, Targeting, 360-degree Arc (37 AP); IAF Fragile Immobile (-1 3/4), Limited Range (20m radius area; -1/4), Not work vs. targets making Stealth / Acrobatics rolls (-1/4), Costs END at Activation (-1/4) (11 RP)

 

The IAF is the criss-crossed webbing (I chose Inobvious since it's not readily apparent it's there for detection purposes, but someone could make a PER to figure it out), easily burned or otherwise removed with almost any AoE attack.  I would not call someone simply moving through the area as an attack on the IAF, though someone slashing at the webbing with a sword or staff would render it useless in short order.

 

FYI this is for a Champions game where several of the heroes tend to use Invisibility a lot during combat. 

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I love all my heroes having some power-associated sense that will give them a chance when other senses are removed in game.  I encourage players in my games to do the same as my villains will regularly look to give them selves advantages through flash, darkness and invisibility.

 

it is good for creative thinking.

 

I like Bolo's build as it provides colour as well as function.

 

doc

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10 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

Detect Physical Movement, Sense, Discriminatory, Range, Targeting, 360-degree Arc (37 AP); IAF Fragile Immobile (-1 3/4), Limited Range (20m radius area; -1/4), Not work vs. targets making Stealth / Acrobatics rolls (-1/4), Costs END at Activation (-1/4) (11 RP)

 

The IAF is the criss-crossed webbing (I chose Inobvious since it's not readily apparent it's there for detection purposes, but someone could make a PER to figure it out), easily burned or otherwise removed with almost any AoE attack.  I would not call someone simply moving through the area as an attack on the IAF, though someone slashing at the webbing with a sword or staff would render it useless in short order.

 

I agree that with Mrinku that, "Not work vs. targets making Stealth / Acrobatics rolls (-1/4)" isn't worth a Limitation. That's just what Stealth does. Now, if characters with Stealth or Acrobatics could avoid the strands without making a roll, that would be worth a Limitation.

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1 minute ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

I agree that with Mrinku that, "Not work vs. targets making Stealth / Acrobatics rolls (-1/4)" isn't worth a Limitation. That's just what Stealth does. Now, if characters with Stealth or Acrobatics could avoid the strands without making a roll, that would be worth a Limitation.

 

That is what stealth does for sight and hearing, I would be less convinced it is what it would do against a Detect physical movement sense.  Are you saying stealth hides physical movement?  Bolo is taking a small limitation to ensure stealth is included and allowing acrobatics to count as well.  Acrobatics is definitely not one of your core stealth skills. :-)

 

if the simple ownership of those skills avoided the sense then I think it would be a far bigger limitation on the sense than +1/4.

 

Doc

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7 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

That is what stealth does for sight and hearing, I would be less convinced it is what it would do against a Detect physical movement sense.  Are you saying stealth hides physical movement?  Bolo is taking a small limitation to ensure stealth is included and allowing acrobatics to count as well.  Acrobatics is definitely not one of your core stealth skills. :-)

 

If sound is not a, "physical vibration," what is it? :) I don't see the addition of Acrobatics to the list of skills that can negate this as sufficient to justify a -1/4 Limitation by itself. 

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Sound is indeed a physical vibration.  But the sense is not looking for physical vibration, it sense physical movement (which may include physical vibration, but probably not, I would rule, sound, unless that sound was setting physical objects to vibrating. I would rule out the vibration of air molecules.

 

If I could sneak up on you using acrobatics in a way that was not contextual (that is, climbing an unscalable cliff to get behind you) then I would indeed say that it was worth no points.  However, this sense is blind to someone making and acrobatics roll OR a stealth roll, it is a sense in addition to sight and hearing.  

 

It it is only +1/4, I think it is colourful and reinforces the SFX of the power as well as giving the heroes a written down way of avoiding it.  

 

Different games!  :-)

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4 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

That is what stealth does for sight and hearing, I would be less convinced it is what it would do against a Detect physical movement sense

Doc

 

Quoting the rule book:

 

Stealth typically applies to all Senses, including

Combat Sense and Danger Sense, unless the GM

rules otherwise in a particular situation based on

considerations of game balance, common sense,

and dramatic sense.

 

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Quoting the palindromedary:

Rats live on no evil star

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First, many thanks to all for the feedback.  It really helps.

 

I really don't have a problem with making the Stealth / Acrobatics roll "Limitation" a -0, but will keep it written down to show the mechanic for bypassing the web detection.

 

I might add Arrangement (additional -1/4) to the IAF, since it's not the sort of thing that can be set back up quickly, if say someone flames the area (either the team mage or gadgeteer could do a simple 2d6 Blast, AoE 20m Radius out of their VPPs to clear the way).  If the heroes see the webs, realize their significance, and think to clear them en masse, that sort of thinking should be rewarded by working 100%.

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One other semi-related question -- the heroes typically scout a location using Clairsentience, and then teleport in as a group into the largest open area.  It seems to me that the webs may hinder this sort of thing.  I'm going to describe the webs to them as "significantly thicker than normal spider webs" as a warning. 

 

Am I being too harsh if I say that an individual teleporting in / around the area can make a straight PER roll to find a clear enough space to teleport into, but if they try going as a group, some of them may end up in danger of "teleporting into a solid object"?  (IOW, getting shunted to a clear area and taking some damage.)  Or do you think these webs aren't enough of a "solid object" to trigger that?

 

For reference, here's a pic of the spider spinning these things:

SrgtDan_Spidersofleng_AdamSchumpert.jpg?

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I personally wouldn't build it as a Sense. 

 

I think it sounds more like a Barrier (with 0 BODY, 1 PD, 1 ED, Vulnerability to Fire, Nonresistant Defences, and other Limitations including Conditional: Can be avoided by Stealth/Acrobatics roll ) covering a large area. And then a Linked - Detect: Damage to the Barrier. 

 

Or a Triggered Clairsentience with Physical Manifestation (and other advantages and Limitations)

 

Also check out Pg. 289 of the Skill Book (well the whole security skill section of the book), specifically the Taut-Wire Switch which is very close to what you are trying to build. 

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2 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

Quoting the rule book:

 

Stealth typically applies to all Senses, including

Combat Sense and Danger Sense, unless the GM

rules otherwise in a particular situation based on

considerations of game balance, common sense,

and dramatic sense.

 

Personally, I always thought that made a decent stealth roll significantly more efficient than bog standard invisibility and I don't think it should be.

 

Doc

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57 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Personally, I always thought that made a decent stealth roll significantly more efficient than bog standard invisibility and I don't think it should be.

 

Doc

I agree. Just look at the builds for stuff like Motion Detector from the Skill Book. It is built as a Detect Moving Person or Object 15-, with a Change Environment -6 to Security System Checks. And the description includes:


 

Quote

Some poor-quality motion detectors won’t register objects moving slowly. In game terms, this usually means moving at no greater speed than 2m per Turn. This requires a Stealth roll (in addition, the GM may require characters to make EGO Rolls (or Contortionist rolls, see page 140) to force themselves to move that slowly). If the character succeeds with his Stealth roll exactly, the sensor suffers a -1 penalty to its PER Roll; each point by which the Stealth roll is made beyond that increases the penalty by another
-1. Better models can’t be fooled by slow movement, and can even detect the presence of immobile objects that aren’t normally in the area they cover.

 

This clearly shows that Stealth can't be used to hide motion as with the better models even a Stealth check won't help prevent detection. 

 

Also, from the Eyebeam trap:

 

Quote

The easiest way to defeat eyebeams is to avoid them: step over them or slide under them. If multiple beams are in use, avoiding them may require one or more rolls using Skills such as Contortionist or Acrobatics (apply the penalty for Security Systems to the Skill Roll — the higher the quality of the system, the tighter the “net” of beams, and thus the harder it is to slip through them without breaking one)

 

This shows that Stealth definitely can't be used to avoid some senses (IR or UV Vision in this case). You can't just Stealth by something detecting with those senses, you need to physically avoid them (unless you have a power of ability that makes you invisible to those senses).

 

This is just a couple of examples, but their are numerous other examples in the books of Detects that can't be avoided by Stealth checks, only by Security System rolls or Powers and Abilities. 

 

Another example is the Pressure Sensor in a floor. It detects weight/pressure (so movement for a physical character across it). Stealth can't avoid that, that is why their are talents like "Trackless Stride" that specifically allow you to avoid ground based pressure and motion traps and detection.  

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1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Personally, I always thought that made a decent stealth roll significantly more efficient than bog standard invisibility and I don't think it should be.

 

Doc

 

There are major differences. A character can go Invisible right in front of your eyes, while stealth is generally useless for an already perceived target. Stealth is never automatic, and uses opposed rolls... a sufficiently good Perception roll will defeat it fully, while the best you can manage against invisibility is spotting a fringe effect at very close range (2m or less) or falling back on other senses.

 

Invisibility to Sight is 20pts. The equivalent points in Stealth would give DEX+8... but 16 points buys +8 PER, which reduces it to about 50% effectiveness but doesn't let you see something that's invisible.

 

In relation to teleporting into the web... if it's sufficiently spaced that stealth or acrobatics could help, then it's probably open enough to allow teleporting. 

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Quote

I think it sounds more like a Barrier (with 0 BODY, 1 PD, 1 ED, Vulnerability to Fire, Nonresistant Defences, and other Limitations including Conditional: Can be avoided by Stealth/Acrobatics roll ) covering a large area. And then a Linked - Detect: Damage to the Barrier. 

 

That is an interesting construct, shows how flexible Hero can be

 

 

Quote

Personally, I always thought that made a decent stealth roll significantly more efficient than bog standard invisibility and I don't think it should be.

 

In terms of stealth I always considered it something that made you reasonably unnoticeable, rather than imperceptible.  you can't stealth up to someone face to face, they'll clearly see you no matter how well you make the roll or how quiet you are.  But with reasonable cover and circumstances a person using stealth can be unnoticed by all sorts of senses.  Hiding downwind behind some crates without making much sound will avoid sight, hearing, and smell with a good roll despite invisibility costing more and only working on one sense each purchase.  Stealth is very useful but also very limited.

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17 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Bolo how about puttting physical manifestation on the Detect because if you destroy enough of the web, you do lose this detect sense.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but having both IAF Fragile and Physical Manifestation felt like double-dipping to me.

 

FYI: I ran the adventure last night where the heroes had to rescue hostages / potential ritual sacrifices from an area where the giant spiders had set up their detection web.  The heroes started out with a 1d6 KA Indirect AoE 4m radius fire blast to clear a space for them to teleport into, just in case.  (As one player put it, "it's like a stage magician -- a puff of smoke, and poof!  We appear!")  Only one heroine (Maker) stayed invisible during the fight, and she made Acrobatics rolls while she moved around.  Only missed one roll, and by the time a spider got close enough to web her, she had already moved elsewhere (making her Acrobatics roll that time). 

 

Overall, it added nicely to the whole encounter, without being a horrible pain for the players.  Thanks again to everybody for their input.

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6 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but having both IAF Fragile and Physical Manifestation felt like double-dipping to me.

 

 

I agree - one or the other. In this case you want Inobvious, Immobile and Fragile, so Focus makes the better choice. 

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