Help with Magic Items

[iamlibertarian]

1 hour ago, Hyper-Man said:

In a heroic game if a character wants to create a permanent 'magic item' to give to others they either spend the Real points and then give away the item (losing the points permanently) or find the item creation rules in Fantasy Hero.

 

Fantasy Hero says that depending on the flavor of the game, and because many GMs feel it unfair for the creator to pay the points for something they will never use, then the Receiver pays the CP.

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

 

Ummmm...why? There are multiple ways to construct everything. I know that Useable Simultaneously is one of them. I originally took Useable Simultaneously as 'per casting.' I guess I could be wrong...

 

That's why there are multiple ways to construct everything. Each one has benefits and drawbacks. Aid works differently from Characteristics bought as Powers, because using one or the other may better simulate the way you want a particular construct to work. I get the impression part of your original confusion was in assuming Characteristics as Powers can do everything Aid can do, only more cheaply. If that was the case there'd be no need for both, because the former would always be superior. But because each one is in some ways functionally different, either may better match a given concept.

[iamlibertarian]

6 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

In the supers genre, if someone with the relevant ability -- technological or sorcerous -- is creating an item for someone else to use, nobody worries too much about how it's done. The person makes it, and then the other person has it. In Champions terms, the recipient invests the Character Points in it. If he wants another one he won't get it until he has the points to pay for it. So the creation of the item is just a plot device, unless inability to get it made contributes to the plot in a particular case.

 

The reason why I worry about how it is done is because how it is done affects the Active Point cost, which affects the Real Cost.

 

If a character casts a super long-lasting spell mid-adventure on an item, and someone wants to keep it, they should pay CP. I don't think anyone disputes that. Back to the +1 OCV Sword. If I make it super long lasting using AID, the cost to make it (and therefore the CP expenditure) is higher than, say, Characteristics as Power +1 OCV, which is what generated this novella of a topic, lol.

[iamlibertarian]

So yes, in response to Lucius, one of the ways I am considering making an item is through a VPP. I am not sure how that matters though, because for anyone to use any said items on a long-term basis is to pay CP for it. If it is a short term item, it is no different that a character using any short-term power through a focus via a VPP.

[iamlibertarian]

For those who have stuck it out this far (Thank You), to those saying that UOO (Simultaneously) is needed to grant a magical item to another character (whether Fantasy or Superhero) it isn't so, according to the rules. Not even for allies.

If the ally wants to borrow said item briefly, if it is a Universal Focus, they can do so. If they want to keep it for their own, they pay CP. No UOO. Not a single item I have seen so far in any of the source material, main rules, Fantasy, the various Treasures books, has UOO on it.

If I simply want to cast a spell or give a potion to AID someone's STR, I do so. And then next phase, I can still do the same for another Ally.

The fact is, if I want to give someone a focus with a spell I cast on it, I can't use *that* focus again until returned or retrieved, but if I have another item to use as a focus, I can re-cast that spell again on the second focus and give it away, and then go on to cast it yet again for my own focus (ex: cast +1 OCV on a dagger and give it to one ally, cast it again on a club, give it to another ally, and yet again on my own staff).

 

The only time I need UOO is if I want to grant Others the ability to use the Spell in question itself. It not only fits the rules, but the game-balancing factor is that such is what i am doing on My phases, rather than blasting the enemy or putting up a protective barrier.

 

If it is a long term item, the receiver pays CP. If the receiver loses it, he can't use it again (and wasting those CP) until retrieved, or a nice mage ally like myself makes him another during our off time.

Everything I have found in the rules, main and fantasy, says so.

[Lord Liaden]

16 minutes ago, iamlibertarian said:

So yes, in response to Lucius, one of the ways I am considering making an item is through a VPP. I am not sure how that matters though, because for anyone to use any said items on a long-term basis is to pay CP for it. If it is a short term item, it is no different that a character using any short-term power through a focus via a VPP.

 

Bingo.   "Making a magic item" can be the description -- or as Hero players say it, "special effect" -- of all sorts of constructs. Some are appropriate to build as permanent artifacts, others only as short-term game effects. "Magic item" describes what it is within the reality of the game world, but the mechanical function of it is its metagame definition. Those may differ greatly from one item to another, even though they're all "items."

 

Now, I'm not sure you've encountered this yet expressed in the rules, but it is a long-standing Hero truism: just because Hero can simulate almost anything by its game mechanics, doesn't mean everything has to be simulated by them. Sometimes, if player and GM agree, it's perfectly acceptable to hand-wave a process as involving X and Y over interval Z, without costing it all out in CP; especially if that eliminates an awkwardness getting in the way of a game group having fun playing.

[Lord Liaden]

21 minutes ago, iamlibertarian said:

For those who have stuck it out this far (Thank You), to those saying that UOO (Simultaneously) is needed to grant a magical item to another character (whether Fantasy or Superhero) it isn't so, according to the rules. Not even for allies.

If the ally wants to borrow said item briefly, if it is a Universal Focus, they can do so. If they want to keep it for their own, they pay CP. No UOO. Not a single item I have seen so far in any of the source material, main rules, Fantasy, the various Treasures books, has UOO on it.

If I simply want to cast a spell or give a potion to AID someone's STR, I do so. And then next phase, I can still do the same for another Ally.

The fact is, if I want to give someone a focus with a spell I cast on it, I can't use *that* focus again until returned or retrieved, but if I have another item to use as a focus, I can re-cast that spell again on the second focus and give it away, and then go on to cast it yet again for my own focus (ex: cast +1 OCV on a dagger and give it to one ally, cast it again on a club, give it to another ally, and yet again on my own staff).

 

The only time I need UOO is if I want to grant Others the ability to use the Spell in question itself. It not only fits the rules, but the game-balancing factor is that such is what i am doing on My phases, rather than blasting the enemy or putting up a protective barrier.

 

If it is a long term item, the receiver pays CP. If the receiver loses it, he can't use it again (and wasting those CP) until retrieved, or a nice mage ally like myself makes him another during our off time.

Everything I have found in the rules, main and fantasy, says so.

 

Okay, maybe what we're running into is a confusion of terminology. That would not be uncommon for someone just getting into Hero. UOO and "cast a spell" aren't synonymous. UOO can be one way to describe "casting a spell," depending on what you want the spell to do.

 

If you want your "spell" to be augmenting someone's abilities, you can use Aid for that, and keep doing it for an unlimited number of people as long as you keep throwing Aid. That's what Aid is for. If you want the Aid to be through a Focus that you give to someone, you can build it that way; the Special Effect becomes that the object is enchanted. And you can keep doing that as often as you want.

 

If you want the spell to be built using a Characteristic with the UOO Advantage, the maximum number of people who can benefit from it at once is based on the size of the Advantage. That's explicitly in the description of the Advantage. Whether it's built with a Focus or not is beside the point; the Focus doesn't change the mechanics of the Advantage, it just describes what it looks like and adds additional restrictions to bring down the cost. You can "cast" it all you want, but the maximum number is set.

 

If you want to "cast a spell" to imbue a random item with an ability it doesn't normally possess, and give that item to someone so they can use that ability, and keep doing that as often as you want, that's probably more closely modeled by applying Transform to the item.

[iamlibertarian]

23 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

If you want the spell to be built using a Characteristic with the UOO Advantage, the maximum number of people who can benefit from it at once is based on the size of the Advantage. That's explicitly in the description of the Advantage. Whether it's built with a Focus or not is beside the point; the Focus doesn't change the mechanics of the Advantage, it just describes what it looks like and adds additional restrictions to bring down the cost. You can "cast" it all you want, but the maximum number is set.

 

If you want to "cast a spell" to imbue a random item with an ability it doesn't normally possess, and give that item to someone so they can use that ability, and keep doing that as often as you want, that's probably more closely modeled by applying Transform to the item.

 

I am not a Total newbie, but I haven't played since 4th Edition, soooo long ago, lol.

So you are saying that if I want to create, say, a Ring of Invisibility (which lasts a Long time, as in your standard magick item or gadget that bends light for instance), I have to use UOO . And if I do so, I lose the ability to use that spell or gadget myself. Forever. (Short of paying for an ever increasing cost for Simultaneously.)

Or I have to use Transform instead.

I think I like the Fantasy Hero method better. Now to find a GM who will let me use the FH version of creation in a Super Hero game. Or hell, to find a GM at all! lol.

Thanks again for all your advice

[Hyper-Man]

A common theme in many published super teams are 'team gear'.  Examples include unstable particle uniforms created by Mr. Fantstic or Edna from the Incredibles, access to secure communications earplugs, bases and vehicles. Bruce Wayne's wealth is the sfx but in many cases the entire team shares the HERO real cost.  Same with the members of the FF and their unstable uniforms (I believe the tech was shared throughout the Marvel Universe). Champions Universe has many similar examples.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: the new Justice League movie 

 

I think it very likely that Flash's self made uniform will get a Wayne-Tech upgrade before his next movie appearance. Heck, one was shown in BvS.  That's just the sfx explanation. Flash must actually pay the character points for any improvements to the defenses or other tech.

[Lord Liaden]

54 minutes ago, iamlibertarian said:

 

I am not a Total newbie, but I haven't played since 4th Edition, soooo long ago, lol.

So you are saying that if I want to create, say, a Ring of Invisibility (which lasts a Long time, as in your standard magick item or gadget that bends light for instance), I have to use UOO . And if I do so, I lose the ability to use that spell or gadget myself. Forever. (Short of paying for an ever increasing cost for Simultaneously.)

Or I have to use Transform instead.

I think I like the Fantasy Hero method better. Now to find a GM who will let me use the FH version of creation in a Super Hero game. Or hell, to find a GM at all! lol.

Thanks again for all your advice

 

Well, no. I'm not saying that at all. The impression I've gotten from your question and comments is that you want to use the game system mechanics to build a spell that your PC can use to enchant items with powers on demand, and give those items to people to wield those powers with, as often as you want to as many people as you want. If that's what you want to do, I suggested a few ways to do that, depending on the specifics of how you want them to work. I and others also suggested ways to, for example, make a Ring of Invisibility that doesn't involve UOO or Transform, at all. The game doesn't require you to use those specific Powers or Advantages -- you could approach the process via one of the other methods. You seemed to be setting parameters that I was trying to fill.

 

If that isn't what you want to do, you're welcome to clarify your intentions and we can try again.

[iamlibertarian]

12 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Well, no. I'm not saying that at all. The impression I've gotten from your question and comments is that you want to use the game system mechanics to build a spell that your PC can use to enchant items with powers on demand, and give those items to people to wield those powers with, as often as you want to as many people as you want. If that's what you want to do, I suggested a few ways to do that, depending on the specifics of how you want them to work. I and others also suggested ways to, for example, make a Ring of Invisibility that doesn't involve UOO or Transform, at all. The game doesn't require you to use those specific Powers or Advantages -- you could approach the process via one of the other methods. You seemed to be setting parameters that I was trying to fill.

 

If that isn't what you want to do, you're welcome to clarify your intentions and we can try again.

 

You are not entirely wrong. I am trying to learn the possibilities, so yes, as to how to do them best, and to learn what is not allowed, and what is reasonable. Both for selfish reasons of not wanting my first character sheet given to the dog to pee on, and, to hopefully learn how to run this game, since I can't find a game around here...yet.

But some questions, and answers, bring up other questions. Like, how does one create a magic item without losing the ability to use the spell that created the item, or spending an ever increasing amount to create just the same effect. Once i have an actual interest in something, that is when I learn best. If I could actually play, that is how I would learn the system best. But until I can, character creation is something I enjoy anyway, and I ask questions.

[Lucius]

22 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

 

 

21 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

 

Ummmm...why? There are multiple ways to construct everything. I know that Useable Simultaneously is one of them. I originally took Useable Simultaneously as 'per casting.' I guess I could be wrong...

But that would make it awfully tough to Ever create a true magick item. My character pays CP for a spell, "+1 OCV, Focus (H-H weapon)". Which he originally intends for his mage's staff. If he ever uses UOO to create a weapon for someone else, he can Never ever use it again either for himself or to ever create another such sword for someone else? Unless of course he wants to pay an ever increasing cost for an item for which the power never increases? I have to wrap my head around this...

Speaking of multiple ways to construct everything, a Persistent beneficial Spell/Power bought to 0 END can be cast in an area and affect multiple allies without incurring the ever increasing Active Point cost of UOO (Simultaneously) as another way of creating a power. Let's take that same +1 OCV. It can be built with Weapon Foci to affect everyone in the area of effect. Hmmm...still trying to wrap my head around this...

For that matter, how is a standard Pistol ever mass produced by a company? UOO, Simultaneously, with ever increasing costs to make? I am not looking to have a character be able to build 'cheap way to buy lot of weapons or gadgets and hand them out.' If characters want to keep them after an adventure, they have to pay CP just like 'buying a pistol from a store'. 

 

"Ummmmm......why?" Well, let me try to address a possible why....

"I have to wrap my head around this...." Try wrapping your head around this: "I am not looking to have a chracter be able to build a 'cheap way to buy a lot of weapons or gadgets and hand them out.' "  You may not be looking for it, but if you could do what you propose that you should be able to do - use a low level of Usable By Others Advantage to create one item after another without having to spend more points - then that is exactly what you find, looking for it or not.

 

"how is a standard pistol ever mass produced by a company?" Well, probably NOT by spending character points on it. If it's in a heroic campaign, points don't even enter the equation - the process of mass producing weapons is pointless, as is the question in that context. If it's a superhero campaign, the only place points enter in is if one or more customers is a superhero or supervillain, in which case, THEY (the player or important non play character customers) pay the points for the guns.

 

20 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

Maybe Transform is what I need. Again, the whole point of the original question was how to create a 'permanent' magic item, and do so in the simplest way. Characters can keep them or not after the adventure, if they wish to pay the CP or not.

 

And for simple mid-adventure buffs, just cast a Characteristic as a Power if it is a characteristic (simplest way), and if the buff isn't a characteristic, use AID with a long return rate if it is for a power they already have, or still use Transform with 'heals back normally' otherwise, which has the granted buff just gradually fade away.

 

That way, I can just avoid the whole "useable simultaneously" mess.

 

The simplest way to create anything is never to use a Variable Power Pool for one thing. But as for how to create a permanent magic item, the simplest way is probably to buy the power using the Focus Limitation and stating "this is a magic item." Especially if you designate it as Unbreakable.

 

19 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

 

Ok, just did, 6E1 29.

 

CP must be spent. I get that. So, say, for an improved sword (+1 OCV), or a rifle sight, you pay CP to -have- it. Money, if anything at all, is just a vehicle to -get- it (as is having a teammate Make it:  staple of superhero comics). Still have to pay CP to own it. The character Receiving the power pays CP. Never disputed that. So I am not sure to what you are referring?

 

Thanks again for the help!

 

"The character Receiveing the power pays CP. Never disputed that. So I am not sure to what you are referring?"

 

Okay. If you really are not disputing that, then what is it YOU have been referring to this entire thread?

The title says something about magic items, then you start talking about casting spells, and eventually you seem to be talking about owning a pistol factory.

I'm just not sure what it is you are trying to DO.

 

If the question is, "I want some other guy in the game to spend points to have a magic item that my character created, what does my character need to justify that?" then the answer is going to have to be "consult whoever is running your game." It could be as simple as "you have to have an appropriate Power Skill."

 

 

19 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

 

Ahhh, now that I get. Sort of. Though Stark Industries, for example, mass produces weapons for the government (or at least did). But if Iron Man wants to Use whatever he produces, he has to pay CP. See, I have never disputed that. I only asked about the mechanics of mass production (in game) to try and understand the mechanics of creating magic items.

I am trying to find my copy of Fantasy now. I hope it translates well to Superhero, lol.

 

Okay. As for "mechanics of mass production (in game)" - if it absolutely HAS to be represented with points, buy the Wealth Perk and say "I own a profitable factory that makes pistols."

 

As for "mechanics of creating magic items" that depends on what the item is, what it does, and how it works.

 

19 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

 

I will look at the links after looking at Fantasy, but I don't think that I don't get it? Not sure what you think I am not getting is the problem. In Superhero settings, *everything* costs CP. That is why even a Cell Phone requires CP. I don't dispute this, and am not trying to find a way to work around it. I am merely trying to understand the mechanics of Building something, whether it be a +1 OCV sword, a +1 OCV Sight, etc.

If I have a 'spell' that gives my sword +1 OCV for X minutes, that's cool, but it is not truly a 'magic item', a thing of permanence (for which one would have to pay CP.

 

"even a Cell Phone requies CP" - actually, no, it doesn't. It doesn't cost character points to have a cell phone, to own an ordinary home, to have and drive an ordinary car.  If you want a cell phone likely to survive if you get hit by a villain's energy blast or capable of contacting the Starship Enterprise and saying "beam me up!" THEN you might have to pay points for it.

 

16 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

If that isn't what you want to do, you're welcome to clarify your intentions and we can try again.

 

See some of my comments above - yes, do clarify!

 

15 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

 

You are not entirely wrong. I am trying to learn the possibilities, so yes, as to how to do them best, and to learn what is not allowed, and what is reasonable. Both for selfish reasons of not wanting my first character sheet given to the dog to pee on, and, to hopefully learn how to run this game, since I can't find a game around here...yet.

But some questions, and answers, bring up other questions. Like, how does one create a magic item without losing the ability to use the spell that created the item, or spending an ever increasing amount to create just the same effect. Once i have an actual interest in something, that is when I learn best. If I could actually play, that is how I would learn the system best. But until I can, character creation is something I enjoy anyway, and I ask questions.

 

"how does one create a magic item without losing the ability to use the spell that created the item, or spending an ever increasing amount to create just the same effect." Please give me an example (in plain language, not game terms) of an item you wan to be able to create, and just maybe I can give you a build for it.

 

And it is not the case as far as I know that you ever have to spend "an ever increasing amount to create just the same effect." If you are handing out magic items to multiple people, you are NOT creating "just the same effect" you are creating an ever expanding effect as reflected by an ever expanding cost.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And an ever expanding collection of palindromedary taglines.

[DasBroot]

Since it's a given and no disputed that a long term recipient pays CP Occam's razor is as such:

 

The team-member buys a new power with CP.  His justification for buying it was that his wizard friend made it for him. While you technically don't *need* to justify character point expenditures (as far as I'm aware) it's always nice to. 

 

Even better if during a fight the wizard whipped up a quick item that let them do it ('take this ring of protection!'), like has been discussed, but not necessary for the long term purposes.

 

"Hey, can you enchant my boots so they let me walk up walls?"

"Of course I can. I am a wizard! But... ye gods of magic above wash them first!"

 

They spend a few character points, the wizard says "A wizard did it", maybe makes a PS: Enchanter roll or something if the GM is a stickler for that sort of thing,  and life continues. 

[iamlibertarian]

On 11/23/2017 at 10:45 AM, DasBroot said:

Since it's a given and no disputed that a long term recipient pays CP Occam's razor is as such:

 

The team-member buys a new power with CP.  His justification for buying it was that his wizard friend made it for him. While you technically don't *need* to justify character point expenditures (as far as I'm aware) it's always nice to. 

 

Even better if during a fight the wizard whipped up a quick item that let them do it ('take this ring of protection!'), like has been discussed, but not necessary for the long term purposes.

 

"Hey, can you enchant my boots so they let me walk up walls?"

"Of course I can. I am a wizard! But... ye gods of magic above wash them first!"

 

They spend a few character points, the wizard says "A wizard did it", maybe makes a PS: Enchanter roll or something if the GM is a stickler for that sort of thing,  and life continues. 

Thank you So Much for invoking Occam's Razor *and* keeping it that simple. Works for me!

Is it safe to assume that you would agree that once said other character pays the CP (since it has to be UBO to be able to cast for another first), my character can then go ahead and cast the spell again?

[iamlibertarian]

On 11/22/2017 at 3:28 PM, Lucius said:

"even a Cell Phone requies CP" - actually, no, it doesn't. It doesn't cost character points to have a cell phone, to own an ordinary home, to have and drive an ordinary car.  If you want a cell phone likely to survive if you get hit by a villain's energy blast or capable of contacting the Starship Enterprise and saying "beam me up!" THEN you might have to pay points for it.

 

It doesn't? So I don't have to pay for HRRT for a Cell Phone, or pay for a Base or the character's home to have a computer for basic internet access? Everything I read says you have to pay CP in order just to have a pair of simple, cheap, walkie-talkies.

[iamlibertarian]

On 11/22/2017 at 3:28 PM, Lucius said:

See some of my comments above - yes, do clarify!

 

Again, at least Trying to keep it simple, lol. I can cast +1 OCV on a weapon, or have a Gadgeteer be able to put a +1 OCV sight on a weapon. Say, mid-combat. Already has to be UBO if I want to able to do it in multiple combats (as opposed to casting it on my own Universal weapon, and this one time when my character happens to get knocked out and another character picks up my weapon and uses it that one time). 

 

Looking for the best way to have, after casting that +1 OCV on another character's weapon, to not be stuck unable to also cast on my own weapon. Or, if another character says, "Me too please!" I know it is doable. Just looking for the best and most reasonable way to do it.

[Lucius]

 

I think this might do it.

 

Blade, Strike True!:  (Total: 14 Active Cost, 6 Real Cost) +1 with HTH Combat, Usable Nearby (+3/4), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used (14 Active Points); OIF (Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4), STR Minimum 4 (-1/4) (Real Cost: 6)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks that works

[Lucius]

15 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

 

It doesn't? So I don't have to pay for HRRT for a Cell Phone, or pay for a Base or the character's home to have a computer for basic internet access? Everything I read says you have to pay CP in order just to have a pair of simple, cheap, walkie-talkies.

 

This may vary depending on your Game Operations Director, but you should usually be able to get a couple of cheap walkie-talkies.

 

BUT:

They will likely be staticky, not reliable, easily broken accidentally in super powered combat, etc.

 

If you spend the points on the power, you get the full benefit of the power within the parameters of the game.

 

Your character drives a car? Free. Your character has a Batmobile? Costs points.

 

Your character lives in a house? Free. Your character has a Fortress of Solitude? Costs points.

 

It's just like you don't have to spend points on Characteristics if you choose not to - you still have STR, DEX, etc, but just at "normal" levels rather than "superhuman."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

There's a difference between an ordinary palindromedary and a superpowered palindromedary.

[Lucius]

On ‎12‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 12:43 PM, Lucius said:

 

I think this might do it.

 

Blade, Strike True!:  (Total: 14 Active Cost, 6 Real Cost) +1 with HTH Combat, Usable Nearby (+3/4), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used (14 Active Points); OIF (Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4), STR Minimum 4 (-1/4) (Real Cost: 6)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks that works

 

Having just taken a closer look at the rules, I have to say I'm not sure this works. Technically, everyone benefitting has to stay "nearby" (by default, four meters) to the "Grantor" (character who paid for the power.)

 

edit:

(H) Our Blades Strike True!:  (Total: 24 Active Cost, 10 Real Cost) +1 with HTH Combat, Usable Nearby (+3/4), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used, Time Limit (1 Hour; +1 1/4) (24 Active Points); OIF (Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4), STR Minimum 4 (-1/4) (Real Cost: 10)

This should let them keep the benefit for up to one hour, after which they can spend their own damn points if they want to keep it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Sticking close to a palindromedary