Damage Negation

[Surrealone]

1 hour ago, dsatow said:

 

That may be, but it subtracts straight from AP and Pen attacks (per 6e1p184).  So even if we adjust the cost for AVLDs and Drains, after rounding in defenders favor, that's 11 resistant, 6 power def, 6 NND/AVLD def.  If we cheapen the cost of the power defense to 3 since it only affects Body and Stun drains, and treat the NND/AVLD defense as 1 point per point, that's still 25 points of defense.

Oddly I don't see your comparison to Damage Reduction and how it stacks up in terms of costing. Did I miss something?

[dsatow]

21 hours ago, Surrealone said:

Oddly I don't see your comparison to Damage Reduction and how it stacks up in terms of costing. Did I miss something?

 

I did.  

 

To repeat with a few grammatical corrections and clarifications.
 

Quote

Mostly yes, because damage reduction comes after other defenses and doesn't totally eliminate damage, has a normal and resistant cost structure, and costs rather a lot for the amount of damage savings you get.
 
30 pt resistant PD damage reduction to justify its cost (not counting the other benefits) needs to reduce damage by 20 points of stun (20rPD = 30 pts).  That means at least 39 points of stun past defenses.  In a 12DC game, that means the character would have something like 3 Defense.  What damage reduction does do effectively is level the effectiveness of slow large scale attacks against rapid smaller attacks.  This makes it ideal for bosses or large opponents.  It also reduces stun chances on the user.  What it doesn't do is make the user invulnerable to a normal attack within the damage range of the game as every attack will generally do stun.

 

[Surrealone]

56 minutes ago, dsatow said:

 (not counting the other benefits)

 

It was precisely the breakdown of those other benefits gleaned from Damage Reduction I was looking for in your comparison -- specifically because you called them out (broke them down) for Damage Negation as follows:

• "So even if we adjust the cost for AVLDs and Drains, after rounding in defenders favor, that's 11 resistant, 6 power def, 6 NND/AVLD def.  If we cheapen the cost of the power defense to 3 since it only affects Body and Stun drains, and treat the NND/AVLD defense as 1 point per point, that's still 25 points of defense. "

 

You tallied all of the resistant defense, so-called power defense, NND/AVLD defense, etc with Damage Negation to come up with '25 points of defense' -- so I was, of course, looking for the same breakdown for Damage Reduction since it has a number of those same (or similar, especially in it being completely unimpacted by Reduced Negation) benefits and since you seem to feel Damage Reduction is fine for its cost.  It would be useful to see such a breakdown from you in order to wrap my head around why you think DR's bottom line (i.e. points of provided defense ... including the so-called 'other benefits') is fine for its cost ... but DN is not.

 

 

[dsatow]

15 minutes ago, Surrealone said:

 

It would be useful to see such a breakdown from you in order to wrap my head around why you think DR's bottom line (i.e. points of provided defense ... including the so-called 'other benefits') is fine for its cost ... but DN is not.

 

 

The problem here is that damage reduction is proportional while damage negation is not.  At higher level of base defense (rPD/rED) the effectiveness of damage reduction is reduced while at lower levels of defense, the effect increased.  DN can be compared to straight defenses as it is not proportional and can be calculated 

 

Take, for example, just blast in a 12d6 game. 

1. With damage reduction at 50% resistant.  At 5 def, this will result in 7 Body,  37 past defenses or  3 body, 18 stun.  At 20 def, this will result in 22 stun past defenses or 11 stun.  At 35 def, this will result in 7 stun past defenses or 3 stun.  
2. Lets do the same calculation with Damage Negation at 6d6.  At 5 def, this will result in 1 Body 16 stun.  At 20 def, this will result in 1 stun.  At 35 def, this will result in immunity.
3. Lets do the same calculation with an additional 20 resistant (added to the 5,20,35).  At 25 def, this will result in 17 stun.  At 40 def, this will result in 2 stun.  At 75 def, this will result in immunity.

 

The DN performs as good as or better than either Reduction or straight defenses.  Lets take a look at 10d6 AP and 8d6 Pen.

 

With 10d6 AP = 10 Body, 35 Stun.

1. With damage reduction at 50% resistant.  At 5 def, this will result in 7 Body and 39 past defenses or 3 body, 19 stun.  At 20 def, this will result in 32 stun past defenses or 16 stun.  At 35 def, this will result in 17 stun past defenses or 8 stun.  
2. Lets do the same calculation with Damage Negation at 6d6.  At 5 def, this will result in 1 Body, 11 stun.  At 20 def, this will result in 4 stun.  At 35 def, this will result in immunity.
3. Lets do the same calculation with an additional 20 resistant (added to the 5,20,35).  At 25 def, this will result in 22 stun.  At 40 def, this will result in 15 stun.  At 75 def, this will result in immunity.

With 8d6 Pen = 8 Body, 28 Stun. (8 Stun minimum)

1. With damage reduction at 50% resistant.  At 5 def, this will result in 3 Body, 23 Stun past defenses or 1 body, 11 stun.  At 20 def, this will result in 8 stun past defenses or 8 stun.  At 35 def, this will result in 0 stun past defenses or 8 stun.  
2. Lets do the same calculation with Damage Negation at 6d6.  At 5 def, this will result in 0 Body, 2 stun.  At 20 def, this will result in 2 stun.  At 35 def, this will result in 2 stun.
3. Lets do the same calculation with an additional 20 resistant (added to the 5,20,35).  At 25 def, this will result in 8 stun.  At 40 def, this will result in 8 stun.  At 75 def, this will result in 8 Stun.

Still the DN performs as good as or better than Reduction or Straight defenses.  Reduction was never much better than straight defenses for day to day attacks.

[dsatow]

Just for kicks, lets assume that damage negation is non-resistant.  How would the costs/effectiveness of 4d6 resistant DN stack from my last post?

 

In a straight 12d6

• Damage Negation at 4d6.  At 5 def, this will result in 3 Body 23 stun.  At 20 def, this will result in 8 stun.  At 35 def, this will result in immunity

 

With 10d6 AP

• Damage Negation at 4d6.  At 5 def, this will result in 3 Body 18 stun.  At 20 def, this will result in 11 stun.  At 35 def, this will result in 3 stun.

With 8d6 Pen

• Damage Negation at 4d6.  At 5 def, this will result in 9 stun.  At 20 def, this will result in 4 stun.  At 35 def, this will result in 4 stun.

[dsatow]

Just forgot to add, DN equivalently has 2pt of Knbk Resistant per DC in my calculations.  For some reason, I thought 6e said to keep knbk normal.

[Cantriped]

Like the OP I don't particularly like Damage Negation. However I do see it's place in the toolkit that is Hero System. Instead of trying to 'fix' the tool, I only use it for those few things I consider it to be good at.

 

For example, I use Damage Negation in my version of Seat Belts to reduce damage to the passenger from Collisions. I'd also use Damage Negation to reduce damage from G-Forces in lieu of the defenses suggested for starships and the like in Star Hero. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think a good exercise maybe next year would be a serious attempt to retool Damage Negation now that people have played with it enough to have a sense of how it acts in the game.  Armor Piercing was a +½ advantage for 5 editions until someone ran the math and dug into what it should really cost.  DN is brand new, needs some tweaking.

[Hyper-Man]

Something else I've never seen discussed is the 'counter' to DN which only costs 2 points per die.  

 

Complimenting a 12DC attack with a 10DC one with -5DN is very easy via a framework.

 

Example from https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?795840-HERO6E-My-rookie-JLA-builds&p=20706531#post20706531

 

0 33) Super Punching v2: Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6 (Reduced Negation (6)), Armor Piercing (6e damage prorating rules mean that STR and Maneuver damage adds at 4/5 the normal rate (45 STR adds +7DC); +1/4) (52 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) Real Cost: 30 - END=5

 

0 34) Super Punching v3: Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6 (Reduced Negation (6)), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; 45 STR adds +9DC since the Reduced END Advantage does not directly affect damage; +1/4) (52 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) Real Cost: 30 
[Notes: Like the "More powerfull than a locamotive v1" slot this allows for a 15d6 Punch but with the added 6d6 of Reduced Negation (the counter to Damage Negation). The other main differences are that it doesn't require an additional 5 END to Activate or provide extra defenses or Knockback Resistance like that other slot.] - END=2

 

 

[Cantriped]

I don't think I can recall any of the official examples I've seen using Reduced Negation. To be fair though most of them were converted from editions where Damage Negation and Reduced Negation didn't exist yet. So it isn't something I think about very often.

 

In theory, Reduced Negation being so cheap, and Damage Negation being so expensive (relative to its counter at least) is one of the biggest disadvantages to using Damage Negation. There is a much bigger gamble in using Damage Negation as your primary defense over Resistant Protection. Almost every Master Villain comes with an Attack Framework that could easily have a slot loaded with enough Reduced Negation to render a character reliant on Damage Negation defenseless, and still have a sizeable Attack Power that isn't prorated against a huge Stack of Advantages:

 

Negation Negation Gauntlets:  HA +1d6 (Physical), Reduced Negation (15 DCs) (+/-1 DC per 5 APs) (35 APs); HA (-1/4), OIF Universal (-1/2). Total Cost: 20 points

Note: Since this gadget is adding Reduced Negation to an HA via an OIF, you end up paying just ~1.14 CP to negate 5 APs of Damage Negation. You also get to add all of your Strength (without proration) to the attack, and none of it gets negated either. It is a bit too expensive to buy at full price on the off-chance a character has a lot of physical Damage Negation, but it will easily fit into most Frameworks.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I don't really like reduced negation as a power bought with points because that makes it unusable with variable advantage.  And variable advantage in my experience is usually the go-to for someone who can tune their attacks to the target.

[Hyper-Man]

Variable Advantage can be thought of as a very limited form of a Framework. ?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Along those lines maybe there should be a variable adder power?  Like 1.5 times the maximum points in adders you can add to a power.  Obviously more useful for some powers than others.

[Cantriped]

There aren't very many adders one might want to switch around. It would be easier to houserule that you can also buy Adders with Variable Advantage if you have enough APs worth of effective advantage available to pay for the Adder. For example: 6d6 Blast, Variable Advantage (+1/2 worth; +1) (60 APs) could purchase up to 15 APs worth of Adders, a +1/4 Advantage and 8 APs worth of Adders, or +1/2 in Advantages. That way a traditional Variable Attack power can buy Reduced Negation alongside Armor Piercing and other combat Modifiers as needed.

[dsatow]

I wonder if instead of an adder, it would be more symmetric with the rest of the system to say +1/4 for twice the effective damage classes.  Thus for a +1/4 advantage, it reduces the damage negation by half.  For +1/2, it reduces it by 1/4.  Etc.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Probably better to just have an advantage that just bypasses damage negation the way you can bypass hardened defenses.