Durability discussion - Defenses

[DasBroot]

The damage negation thread got me thinking about how the defenses balance against or around each other. Is there a sweet spot? Is DN as frontloaded as it seems? Are multiple defenses best?  

 

Just felt like running some numbers and see what people think.

 

Spinning off the damage negation discussion - conceptually I like Damage Negation ... in a vacuum. It's very binary.

 

For example in a 12 DC game someone with 10 DN physical would take 2d6 from the average physical attack - basically attacks of that power level are 'normal' attacks against him so he better watch out.  Lesser attacks mean nothing to him and greater ones are truly life threatening.

If he had 12 DN then he's vulnerable only to above average attacks.  It's up to the GM as to how often that occurs.  It could still be viable/fun without being a snoozefest.  

 

Throw any PD beyond the base 2 in, though, and the character is basically invincible.  And should be - that's a lot of base points spent on being immune to physical damage. It just feels disproportionately strong, though.

 

Let's go with 60 base points on physical defenses (plus base 2 PD)

I'm using spolier tags to break up the Wall of Text

 

First up we're dealing with 12 DC - as a normal 12d6  attack and as a 4d6 KA

 

 

60 - 1-  75% resistant physical damage reduction.  Vs a sample 12 DC (12d6) attack, standard roll option (3): 2 body, 7 stun.  vs KA (4d6) - 4 body, 6 stun

60- 2- Physical DN 12. Vs the sample 12d6 = No body, no stun, no knockback.  Same vs KA.

60 - 3 - PD 62.  Normal 12d6 = No body, no stun, possible knockback. KA: 12 Body, 12 stun.  Congrats, you weren't bulletproof.

60 - 4 - RPD 40: Normal: 12d6 = No body, no stun, possible knockback.  KA: Ditto.

60 - 5 - DN 4, PD 20, Damage Reduction 50%.  Normal: 8d6x3= 24 stun - 22 = 2 / 2 = 1 stun, 0 body.  KA: Starts to get messy. 3 1/2 d6 = 10 body, 10 stun.  Bullets - my only weakness! How did you know?

60 - 6 - DN 4, RPD 15, DR 50%.  (24 - 17) / 2 = 4 stun, 0 body.  KA: Nope. 

60 - 7 - DN 6, RPD 20.  6d6x3= 18 - 22.  0 body, 0 stun.  KA: 20 RPD laughs at your feeble 2d6 KA (6 body, 12 stun)
 

 

 

2, 3, 4, and 7 were immune to the attack. 2 couldn't even be knocked back by it. 3 has issues with killing damage, though, and always will.

Let's jump the damage up to a super villain with a normal 16d6 attack (16 body, 48 stun)  - not unreasonable in a 12 DC game for an enemy 'big boss'.

 

 

1 - 3 body, 11 stun.

2 - 4d6 = 4 body, 12 stun

3 - 0 body, 0 stun. "Were you... paying attention when I made my character?... what do you mean he picks up a sword next phase?"

4 -  0 body, 8 stun.

5 - 12d6 = 12 body, 36 stun.  0 body, 16 stun.  0 body, 8 stun.  "No bullets! I'm cool!"

6 - 0 body, 10 stun. 

7 - 0 body, 0 stun.  "Go get your sword.  4 1/2 killing isn't going to bother me any."
 

 

 

7, the 50/50 split between DN and RPD, remains the clear winner here.  2  takes no damage as well but that KA arrow is looking pretty tempting to the bad guys right now.  4 is a strong contender but 7 will remain  the winner for quite some time.

Next up: A brutal for campaign average 20d6 attack vs 4 and 7:

 

 

4 = 0 body, 20 stun

7 = 14d6 = 14 bod, 42 stun = 0 body, 22 stun.

But here comes 6! 16d6 = 16 bod, 48 stun.  0 body, 31 stun.. 15 stun.
 

 

 

4 and 7 were close but 6 snuck in there at the end and stole the prize.  This is the point where its layers are beginning to show.

Let's fall from orbit for fun (30d6 normal = 30 body, 90 stun).  Naked optional (Motley Crue - Kickstart My Heart)

 

 

1 - 7 body, 22 stun. "I think I broke something!"

2 -  30-12 = 18d6.  16 body,  52 stun.  "Anyone have a spatula?"

3 -  90-62 = 0 body, 28 stun.  "Oof."

4 -  90 - 42 = 0 body, 48 stun. "Look at all the pretty stars"

5 -  26d6 = 26 body, 78 stun.  4 body, 56 stun.  Final: 2 body, 28 stun. "Ow, my clavical!"

6 -  11 body, 63 stun. Final value: 5 body, 32 stun. "Damn you rounding rules!"

7  - 24d6 = 24 bod, 72 stun.  2 bod, 50 stun. "Just going to.... lie here a minute...."
 

 

 

... and 6 steals the crown for overall protection ... provisionally.  It took 5 body and 32 stun though pure DR had a strong finish at 7 body and 22 stun and stands the best chance of punching something the next phase (least chance of being stunned due to besting con). 

 The pure RPD took 48 stun.  The 50/50 hybrid took 2 body and 50 stun, making it - the strongest starter - the biggest loser in asphalt belly flop from orbit contest.

 

edit: Once again I took the non resistant builds out of contention... they have a common kryptonite hole (killing damage) so even though they  does provide better protection in the belly flop they're not as  balanced overall: If Mr Ha-Ha pushed a crash mat filled with upward pointing spiked in at the last minute they wouldn't fare well at all.

 

Anyone else have a 'better' combination?  Maybe the non-resistant 75% (30 points) and 20 RPD? 

How much is too much? Which combinations would you, as a GM, allow in a 12 DC game?  Do the DN builds fall apart sooner if you start changing the DCs with advantages... or later?

[Surrealone]

Well, to determine a 'better' combination would also require considering how Armor Piercing, Penetrating, AVAD, and Reduced Negation etc. attacks fare against your combinations.

 

Why?  Well let's look:

• Damage Reduction:  Armor Piercing and Reduced Negation have no impact on DR, at all ... while Penetrating works normally against DR unless it was bought with Impenetrable.  DR applies to AVADs even if the target does not have the listed defense.
• Damage Negation: Armor Piercing and Penetrating have no impact on DN, at all ... while Reduced Negation works normally against DN. DN applies to AVADs even if the target does not have the listed defense.
• RPD: Reduced Negation has no impact on RPD, at all ... while Armor Piercing and Penetrating have their usual effect on RPD ... and RPD does not apply, at all, to AVADs (i.e. the target either has the listed defense ... or suffers the consequences).

This, of course, paints a more complicated picture ... but also a more complete one.  From this picture you can see that the applicability of DN and DR to AVADs provides some protection that RPD fails to convey.  Likewise, the lack of applicability of Armor Piercing and/or Penetrating may give rise to a preference for DN or DR above RPD.  Selection will likely depend on how common Armor Piercing, Penetrating, Reduced Negation, and/or AVAD attacks are in a given game, but I think it's fair to say that Armor Piercing is probably the most common among these ... across most games ... with Penetrating running a close second ... and AVAD probably coming third for frequency of occurrence.

 

Put succinctly ... to determine what is 'better' or 'best' ... we actually need to include a few more variables ... since some of the defenses provide broader protections than others ... and we'd also need to agree on 'the average game's frequency of occurrence' for things like Armor Piercing, Penetrating, AVAD, and Reduced Negation.

[dsatow]

2 hours ago, DasBroot said:

Anyone else have a 'better' combination?  Maybe the non-resistant 75% (30 points) and 20 RPD? 

 

75% nonresistant damage reduction is 40 points.

[dsatow]

I see problems in math here.  So lets look at this again.  Assume a 12d6 Blast = 12 Body, 42 Stun.  Assume 4d6K = 14 Body and 28 Stun.  Knockback is not eliminated/reduced in any of the scenarios so is not a factor in damage calculation.

 

60 - 1-  75% resistant physical damage reduction.  Vs a sample 12 DC (12d6) attack, standard roll option (3): 2 body, 7 stun.  vs KA (4d6) - 4 body, 6 stun

• Blast = 2 body, 10 Stun ((42 - 2)/4)
• Killing = 3 Body,  6 Stun (Body is rounded down in defenders favor.)

60- 2- Physical DN 12. Vs the sample 12d6 = No body, no stun, no knockback.  Same vs KA.

• Blast = 0 Body 0 Stun
• Killing = 0 Body 0 Stun

60 - 3 - PD 62.  Normal 12d6 = No body, no stun, possible knockback. KA: 12 Body, 12 stun.  Congrats, you weren't bulletproof.

• Blast = 0 Body, 0 Stun
• Killing = 14 Body 26 Stun

60 - 4 - RPD 40 + 2 Base PD: Normal: 12d6 = No body, no stun, possible knockback.  KA: Ditto.

• Blast = 0 Body, 0 Stun
• Killing = 0 Body, 0 Stun

60 - 5 - DN 4, PD 20+2, Damage Reduction 50%.  Normal: 8d6x3= 24 stun - 22 = 2 / 2 = 1 stun, 0 body.  KA: Starts to get messy. 3 1/2 d6 = 10 body, 10 stun.  Bullets - my only weakness! How did you know?

        *assuming non-resistant damage reduction, 12d6 now 8d6 = 8 Body, 28 Stun and 4d6K now 2 1/2d6K = 9 Body, 18 Stun before PD and DR.

• Blast = 0 Body, 3 Stun (average per die is 3.5)
• Killing = 9 Body, 9 Stun 

60 - 6 - DN 4, RPD 15, DR 50%.  (24 - 17) / 2 = 4 stun, 0 body.  KA: Nope. 

        * assuming rPD is bought with resistant advantage on both +11 PD and based PD.  Still assuming non-resistant damage reduction. 12d6 now 8d6 = 8 Body, 28 Stun and 4d6K now 2 1/2d6K = 9 Body, 18 Stun before PD and DR.

• Blast = 0 Body, 6 Stun
• Killing = 0 Body, 3 Stun

60 - 7 - DN 6, RPD 20.  6d6x3= 18 - 22.  0 body, 0 stun.  KA: 20 RPD laughs at your feeble 2d6 KA (6 body, 12 stun)

* assuming rPD is bought with resistant advantage on both +18 PD and based PD.  12d6 now 6d6 = 6 Body, 21 Stun and 4d6K now 2d6K = 7 Body, 14 Stun before rPD.

• Blast = 0 Body, 1 Stun
• Killing = 0 Body, 0 Stun

I should like to note that many people who use killing attacks are gambling on the stun lottery.  in 6th ed, the payouts are much lower but happen twice as often.

[LoneWolf]

One thing to consider is that Damage Negation is much more efficient if the damage on the dice is above average.  In a campaign that uses critical hits Damage Negation will be more effective that the same amount of regular defenses.  If you are also using hit location than Damage Negation got even stronger.  This is particularly true in a campaign that uses a lot of killing attacks. 

 

In let’s say a Fantasy Hero game where both critical hits and hit locations are used even a small amount of Damage Negation will make a big difference.  Both characters are wearing Magical full plate.  One of them simply has increased the value of the resistant PD to 18.  The other one has the normal resistant PD of 8 plus -3 DC of Damage Negation.  Both characters also have 8 normal PD.  Both characters are hit by 2d6 HKA in the chest with average damage.  Neither character is going to take any damage from this hit.  Now both characters are hit with in the chest with a critical.  The first character takes 0 Body and 10 Stun, The second character takes 0 Body and 2 stun.  Finally both characters take a critical hit to the head.  Again neither character takes any Body, but the first character takes 34 Stun, where the second character takes only takes 14. 

 

I would be very hesitant to allow a character with large amounts of damage negation.  I would allow it with enough limitations.  If the character is trying to become immune to a certain type of damage, Damage Negation is a good way to achieve this.     

[mrinku]

Just a point here, and I've probably missed a clarification from Steve or some section of 6e I don't have, but when Damage Negation says it works against AVADs, surely that only applies if the AVAD in question is applied to the type of defense that that DN is defined as? In other words, if you have Physical Damage Negation, that's not going to affect Blast with AVAD Flash Defence, any more than your PD would defend against it. If it was Mental Blast AVAD Physical Defense, then yes, the DN would apply before you used PD. DN also specifically doesn't protect against AVADs that don't do damage. Flash AVAD Mental Defense is not affected by Mental Damage Negation.

 

But, "vs Special Effect" is going to stop Physical, Energy, Mental and AVAD attacks of the appropriate special effect, as well as the Drains. that's where I see that list mainly being used.

 

As far as the BODY/STUN Drains go... well, IMHO they'd need to be considered the appropriate attack type for DN to work against them. If you've got DN to show you're invulnerable to Physical attacks, it shouldn't work vs gas, or a mind-blast or a curse, but a martial arts type pressure point BODY Drain would be affected by it. Likewise, STUN Drain from  electricity would need Energy Damage Reduction or Electricity Damage Reduction and Mental or Physical DR would be of no use.

 

Oh, and in comparing defences, don't forget Barrier/Force Wall. In some ways Damage Negation can be used as a simpler version of that power to represent protection that stops attacks some distance from the character.

 

[dmjalund]

Remember - Damage Negation also removes the Knockback. Something standard defense doesn't do

[DasBroot]

17 hours ago, dsatow said:

I see problems in math here.  So lets look at this again.  Assume a 12d6 Blast = 12 Body, 42 Stun.  Assume 4d6K = 14 Body and 28 Stun.  Knockback is not eliminated/reduced in any of the scenarios so is not a factor in damage calculation.

 

Oh, I have no doubts there were problems in the math - I was doing it all in my head  - but I actively decided to use the Standard Effect rules (page 44, Champions Complete) instead of the 'true' average (admittedly mostly because I was doing it in my head) and based the numbers around that (and still made a few mistakes). Thanks for clearing it up with real numbers.

 

Using true average will invariably skew results towards further towards the DR and DN side of the equation - once the dice results get big enough to bypass the 42(40) or 62(0).  Which will happen sooner with true average.

 

A note on #6 - the intention was 17(15) with the 15 (resistant) coming from Resistant bought on +13 PD.  I flat out messed up the resistant cost in my head, which should have been 22 instead of 20 and break my rules.  It should have been  been 15(15) for 20 AP like you caught.

 

I'm curious about the 14 body, 28 stun result you applied to the pure normal PD result (originally 12/12 with standard effect).  Regular PD doesn't apply to the body rolled on killing attacks but I've always understood that it applies to the stun rolled normally.  So 14 - 0 body and 28-62 stun = 0 stun, but the rules state you automatically take 1 stun for every body you take - so back to 14.  Is this not correct? Does regular PD not apply to KA stun?

 

Also, as dmjalund noted Damage Negation does negate knockback by reducing the maximum number of body that can be rolled on an attack.  12d6 - 12 levels of DN = 0d6.  0 body -2d6 = 0 knockback.  10 levels = 2 body - 2d6 = Also 0 knockback.

 

Damage reduction has a rule that states that knockback is calculated on the Body value rolled before reduction ("Wheeeeeee!") but DN doesn't, IIRC.

[Netzilla]

27 minutes ago, DasBroot said:

 

I'm curious about the 14 body, 28 stun result you applied to the pure normal PD result (originally 12/12 with standard effect).  Regular PD doesn't apply to the body rolled on killing attacks but I've always understood that it applies to the stun rolled normally.  So 14 - 0 body and 28-62 stun = 0 stun, but the rules state you automatically take 1 stun for every body you take - so back to 14.  Is this not correct? Does regular PD not apply to KA stun?

 

As of 6E, normal PD/ED applies to KA Stun (CC pg 157; HS6E-V2 pg 103).

[DasBroot]

That's what I thought.  It didn't in previous editions, though? (We played 4th back in the late 80s and handled it that way back then, too).

 

I'm not sure that's a good life lesson... if you're wrong about something long enough sometimes it becomes right? 

[Netzilla]

Nope, in prior editions nPD/nED did not apply to KA Stun unless there was at least 1 point of applicable resistant defense as well. (4e BBB pg 168; 5Er pg 409).

[mrinku]

12 hours ago, dmjalund said:

Remember - Damage Negation also removes the Knockback. Something standard defense doesn't do

 

But which Barrier also does. Barrier also effectively stops STUN.

[dsatow]

15 hours ago, dmjalund said:

Remember - Damage Negation also removes the Knockback. Something standard defense doesn't do

 

In the damage negation thread, I forgot about knock back resistance.  Oh well.

[DasBroot]

17 hours ago, mrinku said:

 

But which Barrier also does. Barrier also effectively stops STUN.

 

As do vehicles but both come with restrictions of use (having to buy indirect on your attacks or one-way transparent on the Barrier, not always having access to the vehicle) so I wanted to leave them out of a 'baseline' comparison on build philosophy.

 

Personally, I like Damage Reduction.  A lot.  I hate 'invulnerable' characters and find them dull - I want to bleed! At the same time a little PD/ED at least is required so that running out of Body (something most Champions characters rarely have to worry about) doesn't become a serious concern. So in a 12 DC game I might go with 12 rPD/rED (2 base + 10, all bought resistant)  and 50% resistant DR to both.  Higher than average hits will inflict body making any fight involving good rolls or villains of higher than average attack a threat to life.  Which I like.

 

Anyone else have favorite values or combinations? How much body and stun do you find acceptable to take per hit of a campaign average attack? Or if you're running the game how much do you prefer a character takes?

 

 

[dsatow]

On 12/21/2017 at 8:21 AM, DasBroot said:

Damage reduction has a rule that states that knockback is calculated on the Body value rolled before reduction ("Wheeeeeee!") but DN doesn't, IIRC.

 

Yeah, I noted that in another thread.  I thought for some reason it didn't.  Probably mixed it up with damage reduction or messed up the reading in my head.

[Hugh Neilson]

Damage Negation struck me as an Iron Age defense model.  A character in a 12 DC game might typically have 25 PD and ED.  A 12d6 Blast gets 17 STUN, 0 BOD past defenses, while a 15d6 Blast gets 28 STUN, but still no BOD, past defenses.

 

If the character instead has 4 PD and ED, and 8 levels of Damage Negation, that 12d6 Blast averages 10 STUN and 0 BOD past defenses, and 15d6 will average 21 STUN and 3 BOD.  Once the Negation is exceeded, BOD damage becomes much more likely if defenses are based primarily on Damage Negation.

 

This better simulates comics (or genres) where the Supers pounding on each other  inflict some lasting damage.  Even at 12 DC attacks in my example, every few attacks will roll 5+ BOD and do some lasting harm.  But the heroes are largely immune to those a few DCs below campaign standard.

[DasBroot]

Exactly - I find it the most 'authentic' and 'dramatic' feeling defense.  if I were going to stat up characters from any of my short stories they'd have damage negation rather than other defenses:  10d6 falling damage is a lot more deadly when you have a bullet proof jacket (6 DN to counter 2d6 RKA on most small arms) instead of 25 pd, for example, so a street level hero who can withstand small arms fire had better be careful when fighting on a roof top. 

 

Of course the same feel can be replicated by taking 'Real Armor' on said street level hero's PD - and perhaps should be, as DN stops the surprise shotgun blast from knocking a hero checking on an 'unconscious' thug over.