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A different sort of Zone of Control / Attack of Opportunity


Surgo

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I've seen a number of discussions in the past about zones of control, or in D&D parlance attacks of opportunity. They have generally boiled down to either:

 

1) using naked trigger advantages on attacks

2) limited SPD for making attacks on people who cross your zone

3) not doing it at all and holding actions

 

I wondered if there was a better way to slot this concept into the HERO system than one of the above. I'm thinking directly of fencing duels, where having one party just walk around or run past the other party to be pretty lame: the idea being that the attacker can keep the defender locked into a position. So I thought about: instead of granting extra attacks (which results in clunky builds and large point costs), why not just make it really disadvantageous for the moving party to actually do the movement? So I came up with something like this:

 

Zone of Control:  Drain DCV 2d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (4m Radius; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; Opponent moves towards user through radius; +1/2) (40 Active Points); DCV Reduction Only Works For Attacker (-1), No Range (-1/2), Instant (only last's through attacker's next phase; -1/2). Total cost: 13 points.

 

(Drain limitations and their values are based on those from the Feint power in HSMA.).

 

So you won't get an automatic bonus attack like in D&D but your next attack, should you choose to take it, will stand a much greater chance of hitting. Thoughts on this idea? I considered doing it with a Change Environment radius but it wasn't quite clear to me how to make that mechanic work. This I think should do it. Trigger is a fairly catch-all mechanic.

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Well, seeing as how the action taken in a Phase is treated as basically “still happening” until one’s next Phase, a character isn’t in a position to respond to something else without essentially borrowing from their next upcoming Phase (which they can’t even do until the Segment after their last action was taken). The notion of “opportunity” is represented quite specifically (already) in the Hero System, and attempts to subvert that representation (Held Phases and Aborted Phases) are essentially attempts to play a different game.

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That's a fine point but it's not clear how to put it into practice when it comes to avoiding fencer A, who successfully backed fencer B into a corner, from having fencer B just walk around them on their action. At least without turning the whole thing into some bizarre Mexican standoff of each party holding their action until the other party finally does something. The goal is to at least make them pay for their tactical movement.

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I agree with zslane.  One of the hardest concepts for people coming from D&D/Pathfinder to Hero is that a segment/phase is not a round.  Its better to think that a turn in HERO is more like a round, though to be honest, half a turn is more like a round (6 seconds).  In any case, HERO breaks down action effective by the second.  Given two characters with levels of equal ability and the ability to do Body to each other, they will tend to delay and wait till one makes a move and assigns their levels.  The other can easily assign their own in reaction.

 

However, if you want the whole threatened area and attacks of opportunity thing, the best way is not to create a power to simulate it, since designing a power is a personal thing and not a combat thing.  Just house rule it.  

 

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I went towards the power route specifically because I didn't want just anyone to have it -- specifically, it's there for really good fencers :-)

 

If I take 15 points of power defense  I can't be threatened for walking away any longer?

Sure, and there's also tons of other stuff you can't be threatened by anymore...the 15 points of unrestricted power defense is the problem here.

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I have to agree with zslane this is not something that needs to be done.  If what you are trying to do is simulate a fencer ability it should be purchased with character points.  It would probably be best done with a single attack instead of a naked advantage.  So a fencer would purchase it as a triggered HKA, where someone who is doing it bare handed would use a HTH.  The area of effect is not really appropriate for this either.  How is someone with a rapier attacking someone 4 meters away?

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that in the hero system a phase is 1 second, where D&D uses a 1 minute turn.  You may also want to look at some of the marital maneuvers.  In the 5th edition ultimate martial artist there was a much more extensive maneuver lists, and a section on creating your own maneuvers.   I am sure 6th edition also has this, but I am not sure which book it would be in.

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 If what you are trying to do is simulate a fencer ability it should be purchased with character points.  It would probably be best done with a single attack instead of a naked advantage.  So a fencer would purchase it as a triggered HKA, where someone who is doing it bare handed would use a HTH.  The area of effect is not really appropriate for this either.  How is someone with a rapier attacking someone 4 meters away?

I don't know why everyone has assumed it's not going to be purchased with character points :-(

 

Yeah, I misdid the radius -- it should be 2m, not 4m. A triggered attack is another way to handle it.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that in the hero system a phase is 1 second, where D&D uses a 1 minute turn

D&D turns are 6 seconds. Also, I'm not sure why this really matters. Held actions exist in D&D too; they're called "readied actions".

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If an opponent moves past you while you are effectively still in the final moments of your last attack/action, then you really aren’t in a position to do much about it. About all you can do is burn your next Phase to take a defensive action. If you want to simulate a character who prepares themselves to take advantage of an opponent’s action, then they must announce a Held Action.

 

Fencing specifically is probably best handled as a set of Martial Manuevers, where all the micro-actions are abstracted as modifiers to OCV, DCV, DCs, and other effects (like disarming or whatever).

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8 hours ago, Surgo said:

D&D turns are 6 seconds. Also, I'm not sure why this really matters. Held actions exist in D&D too; they're called "readied actions".

 

In DnD, the amount of actions you can do with a ready action is rather limited.  In HERO you can immediately change your to hit, your chance to be hit, and the amount of damage as a ready action. 

 

But that's not the point.  You want to be able to strike with a character as a personal power.  I would suggest a naked advantage to a strike maneuver.

 

This works on up to 9 DC.

 

Naked Advantage: Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) for up to 45 Active Points, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (67 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Conditional Power Power does not work in Common Circumstances (Only if someone crosses into my threatened area or leaves the area; -1/2)  33 Real points

 

Note that its not area of effect.  Since its a hth attack, they need to be next to you and you need to be aware of them.  This form allows you to strike at as many different targets that come towards you.  The restrainable means that if you are grabbed or entangled you can't do the effect.  I also made the condition 'leaves the area' rather than 'leaves the area to attack someone else' as the question would be how do you determine the character is leaving to attack someone else before they actually perform the attack.  

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Surgo said:

I've seen a number of discussions in the past about zones of control, or in D&D parlance attacks of opportunity. They have generally boiled down to either:

 

1) using naked trigger advantages on attacks

2) limited SPD for making attacks on people who cross your zone

3) not doing it at all and holding actions

 

I wondered if there was a better way to slot this concept into the HERO system than one of the above. I'm thinking directly of fencing duels, where having one party just walk around or run past the other party to be pretty lame: the idea being that the attacker can keep the defender locked into a position. So I thought about: instead of granting extra attacks (which results in clunky builds and large point costs), why not just make it really disadvantageous for the moving party to actually do the movement? So I came up with something like this:

 

Zone of Control:  Drain DCV 2d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (4m Radius; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; Opponent moves towards user through radius; +1/2) (40 Active Points); DCV Reduction Only Works For Attacker (-1), No Range (-1/2), Instant (only last's through attacker's next phase; -1/2). Total cost: 13 points.

 

(Drain limitations and their values are based on those from the Feint power in HSMA.).

 

So you won't get an automatic bonus attack like in D&D but your next attack, should you choose to take it, will stand a much greater chance of hitting. Thoughts on this idea? I considered doing it with a Change Environment radius but it wasn't quite clear to me how to make that mechanic work. This I think should do it. Trigger is a fairly catch-all mechanic.

 

Wow - a lot of vitriol directed to a desire to have a character-specific ability imposing a disadvantage on an opponent who walks around him in combat.  I like Hero too, but the reality is that running circles around someone who is attacking you with a blade is not a smart tactic, and the Hero System does not reflect that reality.

 

Issues with the proposed structure include the Power Defense issue, and the treatment of DCV as a defensive power, so Drains are halved (that won't even get 1 DCV on an average roll).  It also costs 4 END.  Besides, you're not making the opponent easier to hit.  You're making it easier for you to hit the opponent.  How about:

 

Zone of Control:  Aid OCV 3d6, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; Opponent moves towards user through radius; +1/2), 0 END (+1/2) (36 Active Points); OCV Reduction Only Works against opponent(s) who moved through threatened range (-1), Self Only (-1), Instant (only last's through attacker's next phase; -1/2). Total cost: 10 points.

 

3d6 will almost always get at least +1 OCV, typically +2 and occasionally +3.

 

Note that, as a power that costs END, it is visible.  I suggest this means that at least a reasonable combatant can tell moving around the character will make him an easier target.

 

19 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Another thing to keep in mind is that in the hero system a phase is 1 second, where D&D uses a 1 minute turn.  You may also want to look at some of the marital maneuvers.  In the 5th edition ultimate martial artist there was a much more extensive maneuver lists, and a section on creating your own maneuvers.   I am sure 6th edition also has this, but I am not sure which book it would be in.

 

19 hours ago, Surgo said:

 

D&D turns are 6 seconds. Also, I'm not sure why this really matters. Held actions exist in D&D too; they're called "readied actions".

 

I would add that D&D turns became 6 seconds in 3e, the same time attacks of opportunity were implemented.  I recall reading 3e and thinking it imported a lot of Hero into its movement rules (like half moves, for example).

 

A typical mid-level D&D character, which is about the level of a typical starting Fantasy Hero character, gets 2 attacks per round, so one attack every three seconds, or four every 12 seconds.  Sounds a lot like a Hero character with SPD 4.  Whose phase, by the way, lasts three seconds - he does  not act for 1 second, then freeze in place for 2 seconds.

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21 hours ago, zslane said:

Well, seeing as how the action taken in a Phase is treated as basically “still happening” until one’s next Phase, a character isn’t in a position to respond to something else without essentially borrowing from their next upcoming Phase (which they can’t even do until the Segment after their last action was taken). The notion of “opportunity” is represented quite specifically (already) in the Hero System, and attempts to subvert that representation (Held Phases and Aborted Phases) are essentially attempts to play a different game.

 

So if I have a 4 SPD, and I thrust my rapier into my opponent in Segment 3, at which time he takes damage from my rapier thrust, I am still poking my rapier into him until the end of Segment 5?  Even if he moves on Segment 4 (with my rapier still sticking in him)?  I can't react in any way to him running around me from my front to my back, but I can turn that Rapier thrust into a Dodge, shifting all my focus from OCV and damage to DCV (i.e. reassigning my skill levels) and shift my Combat Tricks Multipower from an offensive PRE attack boost (from my impressive swordsmanship) to a defensive parry (physical damage reduction).

 

By the way, any Trigger, especially one that resets automatically and takes no time to reset, seems like it is designed to "subvert the representation" of phase by phase combat central to the SPD system, so that subversion appears to be part of the RAW already.

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Yes, I think you have the gist of Hero Combat, Hugh. For playability purposes, movement and combat is distributed into "bins" called Segments, and how/when you take actions follows an artificial structure intended to make cinematic combat into a playable sub-game (in essence, a wargame). Some players are trying too hard to directly map this Phases/Segments abstraction to reality, and when they do that, they both over-complicate the game and turn it into something it is not.

 

Trigger is generally used to represent something that happens without any extra active effort on the part of the PC. This is quite different from magically acquiring a new Phase in order to react to something (an "opportunity" as D&D would call it).

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Instead of using an aid to OCV it would be simpler and probably cost less to simply purchase skill levels.  I think part of the problem is that people tend to create elaborate and complicated powers to simulate something that does not really need to be that complicated.  Skill levels can be very useful and that should be the first thing any character buys before picking up talents and powers. 

 

As to the trigger that automatically resets with no time, many GM’s would probably not allow it.  Hero System is not Pathfinder organized play.  It relies on the GM to make such decisions.  A better way to simulate someone setting up a “Zone of Control” would be to use the area of affect radius selective, constant, no range and maybe a few more modifiers.  This would require the character to spend a phase activating the power, but after that he could attack anyone in the area. He would have to pay END for it every phase. 

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6 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Zone of Control:  Aid OCV 3d6, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; Opponent moves towards user through radius; +1/2), 0 END (+1/2) (36 Active Points); OCV Reduction Only Works against opponent(s) who moved through threatened range (-1), Self Only (-1), Instant (only last's through attacker's next phase; -1/2). Total cost: 10 points.

 

 

Thanks -- this is a better way to do it I think. Cheaper, a lot less clunky and not so many side effects like Power Defense.

 

6 hours ago, zslane said:

Some players are trying too hard to directly map this Phases/Segments abstraction to reality, and when they do that, they both over-complicate the game and turn it into something it is not.

 

The problem to be solved here is how to stop people from walking around you without turning your combat into a tedious Mexican standoff between two people who each want to avoid taking action. By the rules of the game you can just...do that, and not even care. So to have some characters who you can't just straight up threaten an area and still move the game forward is alright.

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To my mind, a "Mexican standoff" that brings a combat encounter to a grinding halt is not a game mechanics problem, but a player problem. Two people who avoid taking action because they are so preoccupied with what their opponent might do are the very opposite of action heroes. As GM, force them into action by introducing something one or the other can't ignore (a third combatant, an innocent bystander who needs help, an on-coming train with the bomb on board, etc.). Hacking the Hero System into functioning like a different game system isn't really a good solution in the long run.

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If the game mechanics ever encourage it in a situation, it really is a game mechanical problem that has been brought out by the situation. To say they aren't behaving like action heroes is really besides the point; if we already have a way for the combat to go in mind, there's no reason to have rules at all. And you really won't convince me otherwise on this point. I'm from a school that wants game mechanics to reflect as much as possible the desired outcome.

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The Hero System encourages all kinds of situations, some wonky some brilliant, but which ones come to dominate play is generally up to the players and their playing style. In 30+ years of experience with the Hero System, the possibility of a "Mexican standoff" had never become a noticeable problem for me or any of the players I played with, so clearly the mechanics themselves are not exclusively (or even primarily) at fault.

 

Hacking a D&D-like AoO mechanic into the Hero System is like hacking a D&D-like Saving Throw mechanic into the Hero System. Possible, but unnecessary (and ugly).

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11 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I would add that D&D turns became 6 seconds in 3e, the same time attacks of opportunity were implemented.  I recall reading 3e and thinking it imported a lot of Hero into its movement rules (like half moves, for example).

 

That is correct.  Before 3rd edition, a round in D&D was 1 minute and 10 rounds was 1 turn (10 minutes).

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21 hours ago, zslane said:

Yes, I think you have the gist of Hero Combat, Hugh. For playability purposes, movement and combat is distributed into "bins" called Segments, and how/when you take actions follows an artificial structure intended to make cinematic combat into a playable sub-game (in essence, a wargame). Some players are trying too hard to directly map this Phases/Segments abstraction to reality, and when they do that, they both over-complicate the game and turn it into something it is not.

 

Trigger is generally used to represent something that happens without any extra active effort on the part of the PC. This is quite different from magically acquiring a new Phase in order to react to something (an "opportunity" as D&D would call it).

 

An attack with Trigger is effectively a means of "magically acquiring a new phase" in many constructs.  A fencing riposte build comes up pretty frequently (a triggered attack on a successful Block).

 

I would consider "you are too busy recovering from your attack, which is really still in progress until your next action, to take any other action, except that you can instantly recover your bearings if you take one or more defensive actions" to be an effort to "directly map this Phases/Segments abstraction to reality".

 

14 hours ago, zslane said:

To my mind, a "Mexican standoff" that brings a combat encounter to a grinding halt is not a game mechanics problem, but a player problem. Two people who avoid taking action because they are so preoccupied with what their opponent might do are the very opposite of action heroes. As GM, force them into action by introducing something one or the other can't ignore (a third combatant, an innocent bystander who needs help, an on-coming train with the bomb on board, etc.). Hacking the Hero System into functioning like a different game system isn't really a good solution in the long run.

 

13 hours ago, Surgo said:

If the game mechanics ever encourage it in a situation, it really is a game mechanical problem that has been brought out by the situation. To say they aren't behaving like action heroes is really besides the point; if we already have a way for the combat to go in mind, there's no reason to have rules at all. And you really won't convince me otherwise on this point. I'm from a school that wants game mechanics to reflect as much as possible the desired outcome.

 

Agreed.  The game mechanics should facilitate, if not reward, the desired game tropes.  That's one reason for setting the dials differently for different genres, levels of "grit/realism", etc.  Play style often enters into it as well.  GMs bemoan players who "act unheroically", for example always striking at full power, hitting enemies when they are down, or saving the innocent bystanders in a 4 colour comic game.  However, the GM runs a game where striking at less than full power to test the defenses of the opponent means likely wasting an action and losing the combat, the downed enemies always get back up and attack again (probably with surprise advantages) if not put down, and saving innocent bystanders results in losing the battle. 

 

IOW, the GM punishes players who follow genre tropes, then wonders why the players avoid following those tropes.  Maybe if opening combat with a low power attack resulted in the opponent putting himself at a disadvantage due to overconfidence, downed opponents stayed down (or recovered and slinked away, rather than battling until they could battle no more) and rescuing the bystanders solidified the hero's positive reputation, rather than causing him to be shot in the back and KOd, the PCs would be more motivated to follow the tropes.

 

I recall an old article on a Star Trek game which first noted the expectation the Captain would not hesitate to place himself in danger to save a crew member, but then noted that the GM has a responsibility to make the result a challenge the Captain can heroically win, not a death sentence and time to make a new PC.  

 

If we want the PCs to behave like action heroes, both the mechanics and the playstyle need to reward that behaviour, or at least not penalize it.  The reward can simply be the fun, but if "acting like an action hero" means getting taken down by the villains (who don't act like the adversaries of action heroes), players quickly change their playstyle.

 

Straying from the core discussion, though.  Ultimately, if a player wants his character to have an advantage when an opponent decides to walk away from him in the midst of combat, it seems like something the game can and should easily facilitate.  In the source material, do opponents typically walk away from melee combat after engaging?

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You know, the whole thing about controlling an area is about a person who is more unwilling to risk injury than he wants get past an opponent.  Anyone can walk past an opponent with a blade, it is just that they will likely get hit and injured.  The thing is, in real life, people are less likely to risk injury than players working out that they have enough PD and STUN to “take a hit”.

 

What you need to do is put the same kind of fear about a hit into the mind of the player.

 

so.  I was thinking that a decent swordsman might buy a power that can only be used if they are dominating their opponent, so if they face someone whose base CV plus levels is less than their own, they can use a power, which only triggers if the opponent does not give ground, it is area effect and the attacker achieves added OCV if the opponent is not using defensive manoeuvres and gains NND to damage (does BODY) if the opponent offers no defence/seeks to run past.

 

Essentially the swordsman is throwing up a wall of steel that the opponent can avoid by moving backwards.  If they do not move backward but seek to fight, the swordsman gains a better chance to hit and, if they try to run round, the attack, if it hits, is likely to hurt.

 

Doc

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Another way to do it would be to use a PRE attack.  Just getting the targets PRE allows you to act first.  If you get it by +10 the target can only take a Half Phase Action.  If you get it by +20 the target will not act for 1 Full Phase and is at ½ DCV.  Remember that if the target is in even a partial retreat you get a +2d6 bonus on your PRE attack.  If you just hit and damaged the target that may also count as a violent action. 

 

Assuming the character has a 15 PRE, and a martial art with the sword and appropriate skill levels.  This gives him a base PRE attack of 3d6.  He does take a –1d6 penalty for being in combat.  If he hits the target and does moderate damage to him that should get him a bonus of +2d6.  If the target decides to avoid him that will get him an additional +2d6 for the target being in partial retreat.  If the character is a better swordsman than the target, that should be worth an additional +1d6 (Superior skill instead of power).  That brings his PRE  attack to 7d6 which on the average will be 24.5.  This is assuming the character does not get any bonus for soliloquy or reputation ect.  

 

With the GM’s permission the character could even buy striking appearance to simulate the character knowing how to intimidate his opponent.  If striking appearance is not allowed you simply buy extra PRE with the limitation only for PRE attack.  With a little effort you can get to around a 10d6 PRE attack which on the average will get a PRE +20 result on most NPC’s. 

 

This is also the way to shut down the Mexican standoff.  Instead of looking to use rules from other systems why not actually use the Hero System like it was intended. 

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That's viable and it might be worth buying 1 or 2 SPD limited with "only with presence attacks" or something so you can trigger the "act before X" result of the presence attack, if such a thing is possible (not sure what the build would look like or not). Similarly, the PRE could be bought limited for "only for threatened area" or something.

 

25 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

This is also the way to shut down the Mexican standoff.  Instead of looking to use rules from other systems why not actually use the Hero System like it was intended. 

Dude, don't go there. Trigger is as much a part of the Hero System as Presence Attacks are.

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