A different sort of Zone of Control / Attack of Opportunity

[Beast]

3 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

You know, the whole thing about controlling an area is about a person who is more unwilling to risk injury than he wants get past an opponent.  Anyone can walk past an opponent with a blade, it is just that they will likely get hit and injured.  The thing is, in real life, people are less likely to risk injury than players working out that they have enough PD and STUN to “take a hit”.

 

What you need to do is put the same kind of fear about a hit into the mind of the player.

 

so.  I was thinking that a decent swordsman might buy a power that can only be used if they are dominating their opponent, so if they face someone whose base CV plus levels is less than their own, they can use a power, which only triggers if the opponent does not give ground, it is area effect and the attacker achieves added OCV if the opponent is not using defensive manoeuvres and gains NND to damage (does BODY) if the opponent offers no defence/seeks to run past.

 

Essentially the swordsman is throwing up a wall of steel that the opponent can avoid by moving backwards.  If they do not move backward but seek to fight, the swordsman gains a better chance to hit and, if they try to run round, the attack, if it hits, is likely to hurt.

 

Doc

I'd use Presence only to intimidate those coming into striking range (say 7m max range a 1/2 move + adjacent meter

[Greywind]

22 minutes ago, Surgo said:

That's viable and it might be worth buying 1 or 2 SPD limited with "only with presence attacks" or something so you can trigger the "act before X" result of the presence attack, if such a thing is possible (not sure what the build would look like or not). Similarly, the PRE could be bought limited for "only for threatened area" or something.

 

Dude, don't go there. Trigger is as much a part of the Hero System as Presence Attacks are.

 

Presence attacks also aren't technically an attack action, which is why you can get a bonus to them for such things as "violent action".

[LoneWolf]

I have no problem with trigger it just seems that a lot of people want to use it for everything.  The whole Mexican standoff argument is a perfect example of it.  Why build and purchase something that can be done with something you already have?  The only other person in my group who actually runs things loves low point campaigns.  I usually cannot afford to purchase highly limited powers like these, so I have had to figure out other ways. 

 

PRE attacks do not take a phase to perform, although some of the things that give you a bonus do take time.  PRE attacks are a good way to allow a slower character to act first, or to limit their opponent’s actions. Don’t buy extra SPD buy extra PRE.  If you get PRE +20 you essentially took away the targets phase.  One of the most effective characters I had was one that had a 50 PRE. 

[Surgo]

4 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

Don’t buy extra SPD buy extra PRE. 

The point of the SPD was to be able to use it as part of the "you get to act before this person" result -- the SPD would only be for taking that action.

[LoneWolf]

If the target loses phase due to the fact you got PRE +20 you will probably act first. 

 

Many GM’s don’t allow changes in SPD during combat.  It can create bookkeeping nightmares so is often better to simply say no.  For example I once had a player who wanted to purchase 5 SPD and then an extra +2 SPD only for attacks.  If you look at the speed chart SPD 5, and SPD 7 do not have any phases in common.  His idea was this would allow him to attack on every phase except for 1. 

[Surgo]

This is the idea, to avoid the aforementioned bookkeeping nightmares:

 

(Total: 30 Active Cost, 13 Real Cost) +20 PRE (20 Active Points); Only When Enemy Attempts To Move Through Threatened Melee Area (-1), Only For Presence Attacks (-1/2) (Real Cost: 8) <b>plus</b> +1 SPD (10 Active Points); Linked (PRE; -1/2), Only for Attacks Against Intimidated Target (-1/2) (Real Cost: 5)

 

In English: You succeed on your PRE attack, you can immediately use the extra SPD for an attack (up to once per turn, since it's one SPD). The concept: avoid messing around with the SPD chart at all, tie any extra actions to success on the presence attack.

[mrinku]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

If the target loses phase due to the fact you got PRE +20 you will probably act first. 

 

Many GM’s don’t allow changes in SPD during combat.  It can create bookkeeping nightmares so is often better to simply say no.  For example I once had a player who wanted to purchase 5 SPD and then an extra +2 SPD only for attacks.  If you look at the speed chart SPD 5, and SPD 7 do not have any phases in common.  His idea was this would allow him to attack on every phase except for 1. 

 

Yeah, that's a cute idea, but the speed change rules basically mean it won't happen the way he hopes, even if allowed. 5 and 7 do however have one segment in common - segment 12.

 

What that should probably end up being is that he acts at SPD 7, but can only take attack actions on two of his phases, which the GM would designate.

[massey]

Use a combination of held actions, presence attacks, and the cover maneuver.  That should give you the result you want.

 

To get a guy in the corner and hold him there at sword-point, that's covering him.  If he tries to move, you get to stab him.

 

If you are attacking every phase, you're literally swinging as fast as you can (effectively, anyway).  If he moves past you after you attack, he basically dodged and shot past you as you were bringing your sword back.  Don't think of him strolling past you as you tap your foot impatiently, waiting for your next action.  You lunged with your sword, he bolted past you an instant later before you could ready your weapon again.  

 

Hero doesnt perfectly simulate D&D combat.  That's not a bad thing, though.

[Doc Democracy]

The other thing about PRE is that it is less and less effective as a combat goes on, this should continue at the same level...

[DasBroot]

Two equally skilled armed combatants with the same armor WILL spend a lot of time circling each other (holding actions) waiting for the other guy to commit and make a mistake.  In real life one missed move in a sword fight means grievous bodily harm and perhaps death.  It's realistic (but hey realism's boring - start swinging, hero)

 

A phase is *one second*. I don't have a problem with the guy who acts first skipping around his opponent faster than his opponent can react - that's what winning initiative is all about.  I don't have a problem with the guy who acts second skipping away after before the guy who acts first can recover from his attack, either.

 

If the first guy wants to stop him then like massey mentioned there are ways in the system to do it. Hold a grab, or a trip.  Use the cover action. 

 

In the right genre put him in a Barrier bubble or entangle him.  Mind control him into dropping his weapon.  Reduce his movement speed with change environment.  Teleport him 10 meters straight up.  Turn him into a frog.  Turn his sword into a frog....

 

 

[DasBroot]

On 01/01/2018 at 5:39 AM, Doc Democracy said:

The other thing about PRE is that it is less and less effective as a combat goes on, this should continue at the same level...

 

Mind control with a fixed effect to not walk away linked to attacks or perhaps a very expensive and not practical No Range Continuous Area of Effect 'Zone of Control'?

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

Would not be HERO if there were not other ways to accomplish it.  I don’t think I want my myrmidon needing a better EGO than the mage I am fighting to herd him into a corner, or to prevent a rogue running past me to stab someone else.  I guess I could base the mind control on STR or PRE but it can add additional bureaucracy.

 

My intention was to incentivise the opponent to do what I want rather than force them, I am thinking that this works for players as well as against them.  

 

Doc

[Christopher R Taylor]

I just use it as a rule change rather than a power or build.  You can abort to an attack on anyone that moves within melee range of you, if you have not already attacked that segment.  The attack cannot be any maneuver or multiple power attack, just a basic strike.  That makes it an option, but one you only use with some thought.  It makes it possible for everyone to try it, but with some drawbacks if they are slow or not very accurate.  So far it has worked well but I only use it as an optional rule in heroic games, not superheroes.

[dsatow]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I just use it as a rule change rather than a power or build.  You can abort to an attack on anyone that moves within melee range of you, if you have not already attacked that segment.  The attack cannot be any maneuver or multiple power attack, just a basic strike.  That makes it an option, but one you only use with some thought.  It makes it possible for everyone to try it, but with some drawbacks if they are slow or not very accurate.  So far it has worked well but I only use it as an optional rule in heroic games, not superheroes.

 

I would too but the OP wanted it as a power for their character.

[Doc Democracy]

The big advantage with a power is that things work when you want them to rather than relying on rolls, judgements etc.

 

My friend who wanted to pick people up and slam them into the ground as a signature move decided to buy that as power (he was not interested in whether they were prone at the end, so we went with an EB which would pick up bonus dice which were bought dependent on the surface used to slam the opponent).  This meant that when he wanted to do it the whole thing depended on one to hit roll, just like everything else...

 

Doc

[Lucius]

20 hours ago, DasBroot said:

 

 

A phase is *one second*.

 

 

 

If, and only if, you have a SPD of 12.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary points out that if you have a SPD of 4, each phase is 3 seconds.

[Greywind]

Well, no. There are 12 phases in a turn. "Your" phase is only when you have an action, which is dependent upon your SPD and stretches, time-wise, until you have another phase/action.

[DasBroot]

A phase is a segment in which you take an action - even if you have a speed of 1 it's still only one second, as far as interacting with the combat mechanics is concerned - a person who did have a speed 12 who has phases on segments before, during, and after you is in no way waiting for you to finish your attack (so long as it's not a haymaker/delayed phase) or combat movement. 

 

Dramatically if you have a running of 12 and a speed of 1 it takes you 12 seconds to move 12 meters - but mechanically to the Speedster waiting attack you he pulls out bread on phase 1, peanut butter on phase 2, jam on phase 3, a knife on phase 4, spreads PB on one piece on phase 5, spreads jam on a piece on phase 6, Holds an action and KICKS YOU IN THE FACE on phase 7 when you suddenly move 12 meters in, puts the sandwich together on phase 8, and spends 8-12 scarfing it down.

 

If he'd chosen to using passing strike on phase 4 instead of make a sandwich the speed 1 guy would still be 12 meters away.  Same with phase 5 or 6.

 

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I guess, but at the same time your actions on one phase can take effect beyond that phase (a dodge, for instance), and originally by conception your "phase" was your panel in the comic, doing stuff that took as long as one panel to execute.  So it could be 1 second or it could be the entire time before you can act again.  Its kind of nebulous in that sense, a bit more abstract than taking a second's aciton then doing nothing.

 

Consider movement: you don't teleport about the battlefield (unless, you know, you are teleporting), you're running around the full time until you move again.  In movement, the phases are just when you change movement or direct your next series of moves.  So its not really exactly a second even though teach segment is 1 second and you take action on specific segments.

[dsatow]

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I guess, but at the same time your actions on one phase can take effect beyond that phase (a dodge, for instance), and originally by conception your "phase" was your panel in the comic, doing stuff that took as long as one panel to execute.  So it could be 1 second or it could be the entire time before you can act again.  Its kind of nebulous in that sense, a bit more abstract than taking a second's aciton then doing nothing.

 

Consider movement: you don't teleport about the battlefield (unless, you know, you are teleporting), you're running around the full time until you move again.  In movement, the phases are just when you change movement or direct your next series of moves.  So its not really exactly a second even though teach segment is 1 second and you take action on specific segments.

 

I like to consider a turn as a comic book page/center page spread and each panel as a phase.  

[Hugh Neilson]

On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 9:29 AM, DasBroot said:

A phase is a segment in which you take an action - even if you have a speed of 1 it's still only one second, as far as interacting with the combat mechanics is concerned - a person who did have a speed 12 who has phases on segments before, during, and after you is in no way waiting for you to finish your attack (so long as it's not a haymaker/delayed phase) or combat movement. 

 

Dramatically if you have a running of 12 and a speed of 1 it takes you 12 seconds to move 12 meters - but mechanically to the Speedster waiting attack you he pulls out bread on phase 1, peanut butter on phase 2, jam on phase 3, a knife on phase 4, spreads PB on one piece on phase 5, spreads jam on a piece on phase 6, Holds an action and KICKS YOU IN THE FACE on phase 7 when you suddenly move 12 meters in, puts the sandwich together on phase 8, and spends 8-12 scarfing it down.

 

If he'd chosen to using passing strike on phase 4 instead of make a sandwich the speed 1 guy would still be 12 meters away.  Same with phase 5 or 6.

 

 

 

 

 

This would have to mean a phase is less than one second.  If every character with a phase on that segment acts sequentially, each acts in a fraction of that second.  So combat between 4 characters of SPD 3 means that, every 4 seconds, each one uses their phase, which can average no more than 0.25 seconds, after which everyone stands still for 3 seconds.

 

Making phases discrete, separate actions is a playability compromise, not an indication of the time taken in the in-game fiction.