Black Widow

[Greywind]

5 hours ago, Hyper-Man said:

Adamantlum wouldn't have helped much since the FOXverse allowed it to pierce itself when in bullet form. 

 

In Logan an entire tree stump went through his adamantium ribcage.

[Hyper-Man]

I thought that only his bones were encased, not ligaments and other connective tissue. I have an old comic with wolverine fighting spider and they both acknowledge that spider could stop him but only by snapping his neck.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah you could pull Wolverine to pieces although he's superhumanly tough. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Then at the Bartons' farm, she reveals that she feels like a monster, just as he does. I bought that these factors were enough to spark attraction between them. The trauma they both went through as a result of Wanda's mind games just concentrated and accelerated those feelings, as stressful situations are wont to do.

 

I think that's what Whedon meant to do, but it wasn't done well because we went from "running in terror from the unstoppable monster" to "we're sweethearts" in the next movie.  There needs to be a transition, something that begins to establish this, not suddenly "OK love interest." At least one film in between. 

 

That's part of the problem with the MCU in general, I know they are taking more time than movie franchises usually do with setting up characters and story (the Infinity Gauntlet story is 7 years long).  But they're also a bit rushed.  Civil War being so early is more difficult to buy; there needed to be more story and more events to build things to a boil internationally, not two incidents.  They're rushing to put out stories that they should build slowly up to, the Hydra thing was like 2 films after SHIELD was introduced.  Here's SHIELD!!  aaand its broken. 

 

Stuff like that was decades in the making in the comic books, telling stories, establishing things, setting up the normal so that the big event felt like an event, not just another movie.  Now, in film you can't take that long; actors age, people forget what came before, etc.  But you can take longer than they are now.  From Iron Man to Avengers was several films, building up to the big teamup, and that set things up nicely.  It was smaller stories and learning about characters that created a normal which the Avengers then could use to play off of: this is more, we need all of you, not just the one.  Now that they've got that over with, its like they are in a hurry to get their favorite comic book crossover event on screen.

[Old Man]

13 hours ago, Hyper-Man said:

Adamantlum wouldn't have helped much since the FOXverse allowed it to pierce itself when in bullet form. 

 

? Most metals can pierce themselves, depending on thickness and projectile energy. 

[Starlord]

Sabretooth slamming Logan's knuckles into his face, "Stop piercing yourself!  Stop piercing yourself!"

[Greywind]

48 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I think that's what Whedon meant to do, but it wasn't done well because we went from "running in terror from the unstoppable monster" to "we're sweethearts" in the next movie.  There needs to be a transition, something that begins to establish this, not suddenly "OK love interest." At least one film in between. 

 

That's part of the problem with the MCU in general, I know they are taking more time than movie franchises usually do with setting up characters and story (the Infinity Gauntlet story is 7 years long).  But they're also a bit rushed.  Civil War being so early is more difficult to buy; there needed to be more story and more events to build things to a boil internationally, not two incidents.  They're rushing to put out stories that they should build slowly up to, the Hydra thing was like 2 films after SHIELD was introduced.  Here's SHIELD!!  aaand its broken. 

 

Stuff like that was decades in the making in the comic books, telling stories, establishing things, setting up the normal so that the big event felt like an event, not just another movie.  Now, in film you can't take that long; actors age, people forget what came before, etc.  But you can take longer than they are now.  From Iron Man to Avengers was several films, building up to the big teamup, and that set things up nicely.  It was smaller stories and learning about characters that created a normal which the Avengers then could use to play off of: this is more, we need all of you, not just the one.  Now that they've got that over with, its like they are in a hurry to get their favorite comic book crossover event on screen.

 

Captain America: "Look, as the world's leading authority on waiting too long..."

[zslane]

It's hard enough as it is to maintain creative integrity in just a single tentpole film while holding at bay the slavoring demands of the corporate overlord and its voracious bottom line. Doing so over the course of a decade with a mega-franchise made up of smaller sub-franchises is nearly impossible. Long-form storytelling is just not cinema's forté, and the fact that Feige and Co. have managed to succeed to any degree is nothing short of miraculous. I cut them considerable slack when it comes to things that you normally don't do (or even get to do) in film, like long-term romance development, or recurring villains, or complex intertwined mysteries (ala Lost). Some things will inevitably be sacrificed at the altar of the Mega-Franchise and the need to "rush" to the big party that will rake in all the cash. It's fine to point out those flaws when they exist, but I don't think it is terribly realistic to believe it would be easy for the creatives to do any differently given all the pressure that comes from so many opposing interests, none of which care at all about striving for narrative perfection.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

? Most metals can pierce themselves, depending on thickness and projectile energy. 

 

It depends, as you note.  Since Adamantium's defining characteristic is being unbreakable/impenetrable (not magically sharp or penetrating), then it would not reasonably have the property of being able to penetrate its self.

 

The reason Wolverine's claws are so sharp isn't because adamantium is particularly keen, its because it holds its edge perfectly no matter how narrow the metal becomes.  Other metals easily dull and fold over if they are too thin.

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I think that's what Whedon meant to do, but it wasn't done well because we went from "running in terror from the unstoppable monster" to "we're sweethearts" in the next movie.  There needs to be a transition, something that begins to establish this, not suddenly "OK love interest." At least one film in between. 

 

That's part of the problem with the MCU in general, I know they are taking more time than movie franchises usually do with setting up characters and story (the Infinity Gauntlet story is 7 years long).  But they're also a bit rushed.  Civil War being so early is more difficult to buy; there needed to be more story and more events to build things to a boil internationally, not two incidents.  They're rushing to put out stories that they should build slowly up to, the Hydra thing was like 2 films after SHIELD was introduced.  Here's SHIELD!!  aaand its broken. 

 

Stuff like that was decades in the making in the comic books, telling stories, establishing things, setting up the normal so that the big event felt like an event, not just another movie.  Now, in film you can't take that long; actors age, people forget what came before, etc.  But you can take longer than they are now.  From Iron Man to Avengers was several films, building up to the big teamup, and that set things up nicely.  It was smaller stories and learning about characters that created a normal which the Avengers then could use to play off of: this is more, we need all of you, not just the one.  Now that they've got that over with, its like they are in a hurry to get their favorite comic book crossover event on screen.

 

Well, the movies are taking place in real time, around the dates in the MCU corresponding to those dates in the real world the movies are released. So the events in Avengers occurred in 2012, and Winter Soldier in 2014, which is how Cap's fighting skills had become so much more sophisticated; he had time to train in modern techniques. Age of Ultron happened in 2015, and you can see from the opening battle that the Avengers have worked together frequently to become such a polished unit, and from the victory party afterward that they've grown to know each other well. Civil War was in 2016, and there we can see the new Avengers team has also trained together in the intervening time.

 

Now, I can understand that you may want to have seen all those interactions take place on screen in separate movies; but given the demands in time and money for special-effects action movies these days, that's really not practical. For my part, I found the implication of time and events happening "off screen" to be sufficient. To be honest, I haven't heard many people complain otherwise.

 

The Civil War issues didn't come to a head over just two incidents. You may remember Secretary Ross's litany of crises the Avengers were involved in where innocent civilians were collateral damage: New York (Chitauri invasion); Washington (helicarrier and Triskelion destruction); Sokovia (no more need be said there); then the Lagos debacle involving Crossbones. Ross didn't even mention Thor's massive brawl with Malekith in London in The Dark World; nor the rampage by the Hulk in Johannesburg, and Cap's running battle with Ultron in the streets of Seoul, in Age of Ultron.

 

As for SHIELD, it's been a presence in the MCU longer and more often than you seem to recall. Phil Coulson and his agents were active in the very first Iron Man movie in 2008, and both he and Nick Fury named SHIELD. General Ross is shown using SHIELD's cyber-resources to track Bruce Banner's Internet correspondence in The Incredible Hulk. We get more SHIELD in Iron Man II, and even more in Thor. Of course between Avengers and Civil War we get the Agents of SHIELD television series, plus the two Coulson featurettes from BluRay extras for two of the movies.

[Matt the Bruins]

On 3/16/2018 at 5:17 PM, zslane said:

 

I sense a non-Buffy fan in our midst.

Quite the contrary, it was my all-time favorite TV show. That doesn't mean I want to see its tropes repeated endlessly in other projects whether or not they fit the tone and the characters. Cracking wise works well for Loki until he loses his composure and starts throwing tantrums. For Ultron, it rang false and his glib clowning mostly ruined the character for me. (He still had a few good moments when he was earnest, like the "Wanda, if you stay you'll die" line and his final conversation with the Vision.)

 

On 3/19/2018 at 11:23 AM, Old Man said:

 

? Most metals can pierce themselves, depending on thickness and projectile energy. 

A bullet cartridge sure as hell isn't going to propel a blunt piece of metal through a larger shell of the same metal when both are supposed to be able to survive a tac nuke detonation. Magneto putting all the force he could muster into accelerating an adamantium bullet to railgun speeds, maybe. But what we saw should have just had that bullet zing off Logan's forehead with no deformation at the same speed it hit. He'd probably have gotten a concussion from it, but a regular lead bullet would do that too.

[Greywind]

Regular 9mm knocked him out in X2.

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, Matt the Bruins said:

A bullet cartridge sure as hell isn't going to propel a blunt piece of metal through a larger shell of the same metal when both are supposed to be able to survive a tac nuke detonation.

 

What matters is that you have two objects of the same material, not how tough they are relative to other things.  A .44 magnum bullet of [metal] will penetrate 1/8" of [metal]; this sentence is true regardless of which metal you put into it.

[zslane]

Penetration performance will also be heavily dependent on angle of attack.

[Old Man]

The other thing about the adamantium bullet is that (one assumes) the healing factor can't deal with it.  In other Wolverine films we've seen the healing factor literally push bullets back out.  But we also know that it can't get rid of the adamantium bone lacing, so the same probably holds for the adamantium bullet, which is a problem when that bullet is rattling around in your adamantium laced brainpan.

 

I also shudder to think about what that bullet did to the inside of the gun barrel.

[zslane]

Presumably the adamantium lacing isn't regarded as a damaging agent in his body, so his healing power doesn't react to it. But any foreign object that tears tissue and creates any sort of internal trauma surely would trigger healing, including the expulsion of said foreign object (regardless of what it's made of)?

[Christopher R Taylor]

yeah the rifling in any barrel is not going to grab or spin adamantium so it would no the barrel no favors.  Plus, have a hellish kick.

 

Wolverine eventually regenerated the adamantium in his body after Magneto tore it out, I think, so his body apparently thinks its a natural part of him.

[Pattern Ghost]

Put the adamantium in a softer jacket, same as other AP ammo, rifling problem solved.

[Lord Liaden]

Only us comic nerds can appreciate the pleasures of debating the practical realistic consequences of things that physically can't possibly exist.

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

yeah the rifling in any barrel is not going to grab or spin adamantium so it would no the barrel no favors.  Plus, have a hellish kick.

 

Wolverine eventually regenerated the adamantium in his body after Magneto tore it out, I think, so his body apparently thinks its a natural part of him.

 

I'm pretty sure that kicked off Wolverine's long bone-claws run.  I forget who put the adamantium back in.

[Greywind]

Apocalypse did the rebonding.

[Matt the Bruins]

On 3/20/2018 at 6:47 PM, Old Man said:

 

What matters is that you have two objects of the same material, not how tough they are relative to other things.  A .44 magnum bullet of [metal] will penetrate 1/8" of [metal]; this sentence is true regardless of which metal you put into it.

I'm intensely skeptical that a titanium .44 magnum bullet will penetrate as far into titanium plate as a lead bullet will into lead, given the same amount of velocity/force. Then scale that up an order of magnitude or two for the the toughness of adamantium.

 

Thor is supposed to be able to cause minor dings and dents to adamantium with Mjolnir, but he's swinging a weapon of equivalent/even greater hardness with over 100 tons of lifting power.

[Steve]

The movie is finally released this week.

 

What do you think of it?

[Bazza]

I see it in 48 hours. 

[Psybolt]

It was great.  You can feel that it should have been released earlier, but Scarlett and Florence Pugh are awesome.  David Harbour is having a ton of fun.