New Power (?)

[Jazzidemus]

I'm sure it's been done.  I'm  thinking of a main power for my new character.  So going under Champs 4th. I'm looking to create  an 'Exhaustion' punch.

I'm thinking 2 or 3 d6 drain vs End linked with HA (punch) Always on, or maybe link it with Strong. I'm trying to simulate that he hits so hard that it wears the target out as well as down....

[Hyper-Man]

Drain END is very effective. Not sure about 4e but later editions ruled END a defensive power meaning Adjustment powers effects against it are halved.

[Doc Democracy]

If you are going to go with a drain you might want to consider why a weedy energy blaster with Pow Defence gets exhausted less than the tank who has no Pow Defence...

 

As written it will mostly do the job you want it to do, I would absolutely link the drain to the punch (if you linked it to Strength) then you would exhaust people that you were carrying or holding which is not the FX you say you are looking for.

 

Doc

[Lucius]

 

Can you Link something to a standard maneuver? I am not sure that's possible.

 

Also, I don't think "Linked" has to mean "always activate together." It means "can't use A without using B" but not necessarily "can't use B without using A." Depends how it's defined when the ability is bought.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Linked to a palindromedary

[Hyper-Man]

Technically, Linked is not needed. Using two different attack powers (ex: HA + Drain, EB + Flash) vs the same target using the same attack roll has always been legal. It is common but not necessary to Link the two powers.

[Doc Democracy]

I wasn't thinking of punch as manoeuvre, the OP had mentioned a Hand Attack.  I would either link those together, or limit the drain with (only when punching/kicking).

 

I might even go further and indicate that it was only when punching and kicking at full force...

 

Doc

[Cassandra]

In a Spider-Man comic he was distracted by the Chameleon so that Kraven could put wrists and ankle clamps on him.  They had to effects.  One, the clamps had powerful magnets which forced his arm and leg together unless Spider-Man used his strength to keep them apart (Drain STR), and two had a bell inside giving away Spider-Man's location (Transformation Minor "Makes sounds when moving" +2 Hearing Perception).

[zslane]

Or just define Exhaustion Punch as having two power effects (HA and Drain) and pay for the combined cost as a single value (with a single active cost). They will "fire off" together by the definition of the power itself. No need to complicate matters with Limitations or Links.

[Doc Democracy]

The reason for the limitations is to reflect the actual limitations on their use.  If you only get the exhaustion when punching at full power (as the description suggests is the case) then you dont get to use the drain without doing significant damage - which might not be what the character wants to do when the target is a normal guard.

 

If you are going to limit the utility you should get some of the points back and the way to do that is to apply limitations. 

 

Believe me, I am not a complication for complications sake kind of gamer...   :-)

 

Doc

[zslane]

Well, the same logic could be applied to the HA portion. You only get the "full power punch" when you activate the "exhaustion effect". Which power gets the Limitation? In my view, neither. And the reason why is that you're thinking of this in terms of there being a "main" power augmented by a "secondary" power. But that's a needless distinction to draw since the two effects always happen simultaneously. Therefore I'm advocating writing this as a single power that merely happens to have two effects which just happen to work like HA and (END) Drain. In terms of how to price this "new power", it is simply the sum of the costs of the two. Because simplicity is better than complexity, and the price of the power (as a simple sum for its Base Cost) is, IMO, perfectly reasonable.

[Doc Democracy]

well, according to the rules, the smaller power takes the limitation. In the power description, he hits so hard it exhausts his opponents. That suggests the exhaustion element is due to big hits, so you cant tap a few guards' and put them to sleep, you need to hit them.

 

That does not preclude other ways to put things together. If you can afford both powers, pay for them. There are few players I have met not looking to trim costs....

[Jazzidemus]

. 

8 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I wasn't thinking of punch as manoeuvre, the OP had mentioned a Hand Attack.  I would either link those together, or limit the drain with (only when punching/kicking).

 

I might even go further and indicate that it was only when punching and kicking at full force...

 

Doc

Thanx everyone for the insight.  The effect is to wear them out. So I figured the HA. I didn't think you could link it to a manuever . 

I don't want it to effect people that I carry or shake hands with. I don't want a Rogue effect. So if I wanted to go this route just take drain with a limitation them?

[Hugh Neilson]

17 hours ago, Hyper-Man said:

Drain END is very effective. Not sure about 4e but later editions ruled END a defensive power meaning Adjustment powers effects against it are halved.

 

6th Ed made END defensive as part of the fallout from its cost reduction.  It's not defensive in 4e or 5e, IIRC

[Jazzidemus]

Also that why I was thinking about linking it. I wanted the Stun/Body dmg as well as the drain effect.

[zslane]

Well, I was never fond of Linked simply because if you get to use two powers at once, then I feel you should pay for two powers, both in terms of Character Points and in terms of Endurance. There are plenty of other mechanisms to help save points based on tight concepts and SFX (i.e., frameworks). Linked always struck me as unnecessary. As far as I can tell it didn't solve a nagging problem from editions 1-3, so I don't really know why they added it to the 4e rules in the first place.

 

Having said that, if the goal is to use the 4e RAW then, yes, Linked is the accepted way to go.

[Greywind]

If I recall right it was added because there was no multi-power attack and if you wanted 2 powers to work together at the same time they had to be linked.

[Hyper-Man]

That was implied but not an explicit rule. If so it would be an example of a Limitation providing an Advantage.

 

From champions 3e:

 

 

[Jazzidemus]

3 hours ago, zslane said:

Well, I was never fond of Linked simply because if you get to use two powers at once, then I feel you should pay for two powers, both in terms of Character Points and in terms of Endurance. There are plenty of other mechanisms to help save points based on tight concepts and SFX (i.e., frameworks). Linked always struck me as unnecessary. As far as I can tell it didn't solve a nagging problem from editions 1-3, so I don't really know why they added it to the 4e rules in the first place.

 

Having said that, if the goal is to use the 4e RAW then, yes, Linked is the accepted way to go.

When you use Linked aren't you still paying for the Powers.  I'm not trying to min max I was trying to achieve an ability. Now as far as 4e rules it was the rule set we used back in the day and we enjoy them. Yes there is 5th & 6th, but honestly to us it ain't broke....lol

[Doc Democracy]

Ooh!  We verge on recreating the Great Linked Debate that raged across the forums for  some time.  Is it an advantage, is it a limitation.  I think it is one of those judgement things. 

 

If I cannot use the drain unless I am using the hand attack, then my use of it is limited and I should be compensated for that loss.  If I always use it when I am using the HA what exactly is the problem?  If the HA costs 6 points and the drain costs 60 points, then should the limitation be put on the drain or the hand attack?  

 

Personally, I think that restricting my use of the drain is worth compensation.  After that it all comes down to a negotiation of how much that is worth.

 

Doc

[zslane]

Well, the rules put the Linked Limitation on the lower Base Cost power, regardless of which power actually seems like the "main" power. If the HA costs 6 and the Drain costs 60, then Linked is effectively saying that the HA is restricted to only working when the Drain is used. Regardless of whether that makes any conceptual sense or not, that's the rule, and rule is written that way no doubt to minimize as much as possible the discount Linked provides.

 

In this particular example, I guess the "restriction" you're really talking about is that you can't use the Drain without also doing (HA) damage, i.e., you can't Drain with a simple non-damaging touch, but only with a damage-inducing punch (you need to hit with an attack roll either way though). I'm not convinced that's worth a +1/4 Limitation discount, but whatever.

[Hugh Neilson]

You also can't use the Drain without spending END for the HA, so that is an issue.

 

Why on the lower cost power?  So 1d6 Blast with a 12d6 Flash, Linked, is not less expensive than a 12d6 Flash.  The cost of two attacks, one of which only works when the other is used, should reasonably (in my mind) be greater than the cost of either attack purchased alone, and less than having both attacks and being able to use them together or apart as you choose.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 1/22/2018 at 10:34 AM, Hyper-Man said:

Technically, Linked is not needed. Using two different attack powers (ex: HA + Drain, EB + Flash) vs the same target using the same attack roll has always been legal. It is common but not necessary to Link the two powers.

Really? I thought the reason for linked was to have two different powers go off at the same time. At least in 4th Ed.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 1/22/2018 at 8:58 PM, Hyper-Man said:

That was implied but not an explicit rule. If so it would be an example of a Limitation providing an Advantage.

 

From champions 3e:

 

 

I wouldn’t say that that pic helps your case Hyperman. ?The flash is linked although not by the named limitation. I’ll check 3e in the use of powers when I get a minute.  And as a limitation as an advantage I think that fails too. Consider, Starburst cannot just flash a target he must do an energy blast. Also he cannot minimally Blast someone either, that flash is going to attract attention a lot more than a regular blast I would say.

[Hyper-Man]

Yes, Starburst was built with the limitation and it was implied that the limitation was the reason that he could use both powers simultaneously. However, there was no explicit rule stating that 2 different attack powers couldn't be used simultaneously vs a target without such a Limitation.

[Greywind]

There was also no explicit rule stating that you could, either.