Cassandra Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Christopher R Taylor said: I don't see that as a glass cannon. My idea of a glass cannon is someone with tons of offense but they're out of a fight in a single good hit, and always stunned if hit even moderately. Very normal or slightly higher than normal stats with the biggest attack the game's rules allow. Cyclops, for instance. Lots of those guys in comics, all offense, no powers to protect themselves with, maybe some training. Cyclops would probably be 15 PD 15 ED with Body Armor from his costume. He uses Martial Dodge and Missile Deflection to avoid damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said: In the comics, they are defined as having no superhuman defenses whatsoever. In recent years, they've claimed the unstable molecule costumes are body armor, but in the past, they were just people who never got targeted by anyone that could hurt them seriously, or showed unreasonably high DCV. There's even a scene in an X-Men comic in the 80s where Storm, who at that point has no powers whatsoever, is standing in front of several other characters when shrapnel spins up and tears the place apart. Colossus is hurt so badly he's in the hospital, several are killed behind her and STORM LITERALLY TAKES NO DAMAGE. They have maybe 4-8 PD and ED, and that's it. But they just never got seriously hurt in the comics, because that's how they were written. In Champions, that wouldn't work. Which is why you gave them superhuman defenses. Who says 20 Def is superhuman? Superheroes don't follow that damn Normal Characteristic Maximum. Batman doesn't have a 20 Dex or a 4 Speed. Not to mention that we have plenty of examples of characters in comic books engaging in superhuman fights, getting hit, and not dying. In the Hero system, that's normally represented by good PD and ED. assault 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 22 minutes ago, massey said: Who says 20 Def is superhuman? Superheroes don't follow that damn Normal Characteristic Maximum. Batman doesn't have a 20 Dex or a 4 Speed. Not to mention that we have plenty of examples of characters in comic books engaging in superhuman fights, getting hit, and not dying. In the Hero system, that's normally represented by good PD and ED. Batman has a DEX 18 and a SPD 4. After all he's only human. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrealone Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 43 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said: I don't see that as a glass cannon. My idea of a glass cannon is someone with tons of offense but they're out of a fight in a single good hit, and always stunned if hit even moderately. Very normal or slightly higher than normal stats with the biggest attack the game's rules allow. Cyclops, for instance. Lots of those guys in comics, all offense, no powers to protect themselves with, maybe some training. I tend to take this perspective, myself. i.e. One-hit wonders are what I consider glass cannons. Vanguard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 Quote Who says 20 Def is superhuman? Um, the rules? Normal human stats are up to 8 PD and ED. You get up into the 20 defense level and we're talking armored car territory. No normal person no matter what their training is, will be remotely close to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 Energy Projector Male Char Female 20 STR 15 18 DEX 20 20 CON 18 12 BODY 11 18 INT 18 11 EGO 14 15 PRE 15 18 COM 18 6 PD 5 4 ED 5 4 SPD 4 10 REC 8 50 END 50 32 STUN 28 Total Characteristics Cost: 100 Points Cost Skills 25 Skill Set Total Skills Cost: 25 Points Cost Powers 15 Armor +5 rPD +5 rED 50 Multipower (50 Points) 5 u) EB 10d6 5 u) Entangle 5d6 DEF 5 5 u) FW 10 rPD 10 rED 15 EC [Energy]-15 Points 15 1) Flight 10", 8x NCM 15 2) FF +10 rPD +10 rED, No END (+1/2) Total Powers Cost: 125 Points Total Cost: 250 Points 150+ Disadvantages 10 DNCP: Love Interest (Normal) 8- 10 Hunted: Arch-Enemy (As Powerful) 8- 10 Hunted: Government Agency (More Powerful/NCI/Watch) 8- 20 Normal Characteristics Maxima 20 PsyL: Code Of The Hero (Very Common/Strong) 20 PsyL: Protective Of Innocents (Very Common/Strong) 10 SocL: Secret Identity (Occasionally/Major) Total Disadvantages Cost: 250 Points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 Just now, Cassandra said: Energy Projector Male Char Female 20 STR 15 18 DEX 20 20 CON 18 12 BODY 11 18 INT 18 11 EGO 14 15 PRE 15 18 COM 18 6 PD 5 4 ED 5 4 SPD 4 10 REC 8 50 END 50 32 STUN 28 Total Characteristics Cost: 100 Points Cost Skills 25 Skill Set Total Skills Cost: 25 Points Cost Powers 15 Armor +5 rPD +5 rED 50 Multipower (50 Points) 5 u) EB 10d6 5 u) Entangle 5d6 DEF 5 5 u) FW 10 rPD 10 rED 15 EC [Energy]-15 Points 15 1) Flight 10", 8x NCM 15 2) FF +10 rPD +10 rED, No END (+1/2) Total Powers Cost: 125 Points Total Cost: 250 Points 150+ Disadvantages 10 DNCP: Love Interest (Normal) 8- 10 Hunted: Arch-Enemy (As Powerful) 8- 10 Hunted: Government Agency (More Powerful/NCI/Watch) 8- 20 Normal Characteristics Maxima 20 PsyL: Code Of The Hero (Very Common/Strong) 20 PsyL: Protective Of Innocents (Very Common/Strong) 10 SocL: Secret Identity (Occasionally/Major) Total Disadvantages Cost: 250 Points This is my version of an Energy Projector. While the Normal Characteristics Maxima limited the character to 8 PD 8 ED in Characteristics, there is nothing paying for Armor in Powers. The character has an average of 20 PD/15 rPD 20 ED/15 rED defenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 I don’t recall but I don’t think CKC was designed within certain game parameters unlike Classic Enemies which stated what they were built to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 CKC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Cassandra said: Cyclops would probably be 15 PD 15 ED with Body Armor from his costume. He uses Martial Dodge and Missile Deflection to avoid damage. And Combat Luck! At least one level. Ever since that was introduced, I give it to all my squishy characters! (1 level that is) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsatow Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, Cassandra said: CKC? Conquerors, Killers, and Criminals or something like that. The Champions supplement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 8 minutes ago, Cassandra said: CKC? Conquers, Killers & Crooks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsatow Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 Just now, Ninja-Bear said: Conquers, Killers & Crooks Knew it was something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 All my heroes/villains are build on 250 Points using 5th Edition rules. All characters have a 10d6 and 20 PD 20 ED average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 24 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said: Um, the rules? Normal human stats are up to 8 PD and ED. You get up into the 20 defense level and we're talking armored car territory. No normal person no matter what their training is, will be remotely close to that. Take a look at the table on page 58 of the 5th ed Champions Genre Book. You can get to 15 base PD and ED, before any Combat Luck, without being classified as "superhuman". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 minute ago, massey said: Take a look at the table on page 58 of the 5th ed Champions Genre Book. You can get to 15 base PD and ED, before any Combat Luck, without being classified as "superhuman". If you take the Normal Characteristics Maxima you are limited to 8 PD 8 ED. But like I said you can always buy Armor representing a costume or just plain luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 18 minutes ago, Cassandra said: If you take the Normal Characteristics Maxima you are limited to 8 PD 8 ED. But like I said you can always buy Armor representing a costume or just plain luck. Casandra you should know that even taking characteristics maxima doesn’t limit you to 8 PD. It just makes buying 9-15 PD more expensive. (Good Lord has the term characteristics maxima caused much confusion!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 20 minutes ago, Cassandra said: If you take the Normal Characteristics Maxima you are limited to 8 PD 8 ED. But like I said you can always buy Armor representing a costume or just plain luck. It's not coincidental that the NCM disadvantage disappeared in 6e. The problem with things like it is that it changes the rules for different characters and tends to force needlessly convoluted workarounds. It also doesn't reflect superheroic source material particularly well. Batman is stronger, tougher and faster than most superheroes, not weaker, more vulnerable and slower. Personally, I prefer the old 100 point base, 8-12 DC range for superheroes to 200 points, 10-14 DC. But there's no objective basis for that. Characters should be built according to the parameters of a particular campaign. EDIT: plus what Ninja-Bear said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 22 minutes ago, Cassandra said: If you take the Normal Characteristics Maxima you are limited to 8 PD 8 ED. But like I said you can always buy Armor representing a costume or just plain luck. Superheroes don't take it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 Assault NCM hasn’t disappeared in 6th. Now the GM can set the threshold of where he would like the doubling to occur. And NCM was more of a Herioc level disadvantage than Super. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 8 minutes ago, massey said: Superheroes don't take it. No not necessarily. As with everything else, it depends on game and GM/Players vision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 Hey if you want in your game for ordinary people to have 15 PD, you go right ahead and do that. But 8 has been the gold standard max for humans, and only someone beyond normal human levels has more than that, in Hero. Go look at write ups of vehicles, items, and animals, compare your idea of "human" to that. For example: Rhinoceros as 15 PD. If you figure any human being is as tough as a Rhino, I really don't know what world you're living in. As for Cyke, he's never portrayed in the comics as being that tough. Not ever. 20 PD is good enough to shrug off small arms fire. Has he ever taken a zweihander to the gut and not been cut? A shot from a .45 and bounced the bullet? The reason we assign guys like that the stats we do in Champions is exactly what I was saying above: not because it simulates comic book stories, but because he'd get creamed in a Champions battle. Vanguard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 33 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said: Assault NCM hasn’t disappeared in 6th. Now the GM can set the threshold of where he would like the doubling to occur. And NCM was more of a Herioc level disadvantage than Super. I'm talking about the NCM Disadvantage, not the NCM heroic-level guideline. I may have missed it, but it doesn't get mentioned in either 6e Vol 1 or Champions Complete. In 5er it's under the Age Disadvantage - which doesn't seem to be in 6e Vol 1 or Champions Complete either. I'll have a look at the errata. EDIT: nope, not there either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 The problem I see is some of the game mechanics. At even 8 PD, you can fall off a 3 story house with little fear of hurting yourself. That might be too cinematic. Batman does worry about falling off a 3 story house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 10 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said: As for Cyke, he's never portrayed in the comics as being that tough. Not ever. 20 PD is good enough to shrug off small arms fire. Has he ever taken a zweihander to the gut and not been cut? A shot from a .45 and bounced the bullet? The reason we assign guys like that the stats we do in Champions is exactly what I was saying above: not because it simulates comic book stories, but because he'd get creamed in a Champions battle. He wouldn't have 20 Resistant PD. 20 non-resistant PD might mean "he's only wounded", rather than he's taken out when a non-superheroic normal would be. Personally, I would be reluctant to give him 20 PD, but it wouldn't necessarily provide results different from those shown in the source material. And that's what matters as far as I am concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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