Jump to content

"A Champions Conundrum"


fdw3773

Recommended Posts

My first experience with Champions was Third Edition (it was a gift I received) in the late 1980s and have collected/played various Hero System games ever since. Most recently, I have been using Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete at local game events along with converting previous campaign materials to 6th Edition. Although 6th Edition has its strengths over previous versions, I still find myself drawn to those earlier editions for various reasons (e.g. graphic design, style/tone of writing), especially when introducing Champions to brand new players who would be turned off by the rules-heavy nature of 5th and 6th Edition.

 

Have other people in this forum experienced this also?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes.

 

I still play 2e.  I've pulled in a few things from some of the newer stuff, but very, very little.  For me, the newer stuff has added lots and lots of words, but no appreciable value to the game.  Be aware that this is just my opinion.  Opinions are like anuses:  everyone has one, and they really don't want to know too terribly much about yours.   ;)

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not particularly. I started with 1e and have played every edition since. (not a huge fan of 6e because of insufficient playtesting) There aren't that many adjustments to make from edition to edition in play. Most of the real changes affect character building. Unfortunately, haven't encountered many new players at all recently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Started with 2nd Ed. Played / GM a lot of 5th ed. and a little bit of 6th edition. Like the Sixth edition [but Complete is great also] due to more detailed examples. I think newer editions are just as playable as the older.

I am running a game this weekend, fdw3773,

It is a one shot online game where I have the players CREATE and play a Teen Champions character.

I would be honored if you  attended  and you could see how I teach newbies [yes this is a shameless plug also]

 

 

https://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/99999-teen-champions-meyerson-academy-make-a-character-and-play-online-single-session/

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the major reasons why I'm running other games right now is partially due to the design of the books. While I love Hero, there are other books out there that grab my attention with a clean layout and well designed pages. On the rules side of things, I enjoyed 4th ed Champions the most, and it seemed to be a favorite of my group at the time. Champions Complete is okay, but it's very spartan in its look, and doesn't hold up well next to other books on the shelf IMHO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Barton, would you mind elaborating on those teaching techniques?  My group is (well, was, until COVID) getting a lot of newbies coming through and I can't shake the thought that we're not teaching them as well as we could.  Retention of information in particular is very poor among our players. 

 

1) handouts - I have found and created some handouts designed to be short and give high level BUT important player info.

2) pregenerated characters - if at convention use these, you will be familiar with them, make sure they have common powers and complications to illustrate game elements

3) danger room - IMHO a good way to show off powers/complications in Champions

4) hero designer software for the the GM - it easily makes characters and save you a LOT of time

5) explain 3d6 - explain the bell shaped curve and why you want/when to  roll low and low high  

6) show quick and easy way to count body - group the dice by 1's; 6's, and all others. Then 1 and 6 cancel out, any excess either way adjust the body amount = normal damage dice.

7) show special effects - complication -> double damage to heat; great way to show a blast is blast; BUT not always depends on SFX.

8) show players it is easy for them, harder for GM - Show them that playing [by actually playing] is easy; the GM must know a lot more than players. The point is once have a GM who has experience, the players need to know a lot less.

 

Again, if you want join my game on Saturday please do so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes. I prefer 4th edition (BBB), but may go back to 3rd (Danger International specifically), to run an “The Expanse”’like Hero campaign for new players. Thinner rules, but still handling skills and hit locations. I ran FH for decades on the original FH book (I was one of “Doug’s Thugs”). 6th edition decoupling just seemed “wrong” to me, as well as the deletion of comeliness. I’ll play it,’l but Inprobably won’t GM 6th edition. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/17/2020 at 9:01 PM, fdw3773 said:

 Although 6th Edition has its strengths over previous versions, I still find myself drawn to those earlier editions for various reasons (e.g. graphic design, style/tone of writing), especially when introducing Champions to brand new players who would be turned off by the rules-heavy nature of 5th and 6th Edition.

If you enjoy X edition that’s great. The one thing that took me awhile to get is that 5/6th are tool kits. The rules are there to. Design a you you want. Like myself for awhile and several people here on the boards it seems believe that because there are all these rules you must use them all.  No, the rules are there if and when you want them. You can build characters like 3rd ed. no problem.  I really wish this point would could be driven home more. Anyways playing any version of Hero is a good thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unfortunately from what I've heard on these boards, people who want to play 'a tool kit', they want a game already made. There's Champions Complete but I found it difficult to figure out what is part of what; everything seems to flow into the next without a clear separation of one power from another. Hence, I never use that book, it just gathers dust.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/17/2020 at 9:01 PM, fdw3773 said:

My first experience with Champions was Third Edition (it was a gift I received) in the late 1980s and have collected/played various Hero System games ever since. Most recently, I have been using Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete at local game events along with converting previous campaign materials to 6th Edition. Although 6th Edition has its strengths over previous versions, I still find myself drawn to those earlier editions for various reasons (e.g. graphic design, style/tone of writing), especially when introducing Champions to brand new players who would be turned off by the rules-heavy nature of 5th and 6th Edition.

 

Have other people in this forum experienced this also?

5th was when I found out about hero, and have stayed with 5.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/19/2020 at 8:29 AM, Tech said:

Unfortunately from what I've heard on these boards, people who want to play 'a tool kit', they want a game already made. There's Champions Complete but I found it difficult to figure out what is part of what; everything seems to flow into the next without a clear separation of one power from another. Hence, I never use that book, it just gathers dust.

 

I haven't played Champions since 5th edition, and even then it didn't get as much attention as 4th edition did. As much as I like to play with the Hero System, my group would need something more genre-oriented to get them to play the game, I believe. I've considered writing a world/genre book for my setting, but I'd have to do more research into how many people still play Hero.

 

On 6/19/2020 at 11:33 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

Tech I get what your saying about CC. I know it took me awhile to get the gist of it. incidentally, when I mess around with 3rd ed Rules, I find it just as awkward.  

 

The Toolkit functionality has some pros and cons, depending on time and group. This is just speculation, but I think one of the big selling points for D&D is how much material is available out of the box, and how current the game is. This echoes back to my design comment, but I also believe that Hero needs to undergo some streamlining that isn't Champions Now. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Sketchpad said:

The Toolkit functionality has some pros and cons, depending on time and group. This is just speculation, but I think one of the big selling points for D&D is how much material is available out of the box, and how current the game is. This echoes back to my design comment, but I also believe that Hero needs to undergo some streamlining that isn't Champions Now. 

I’ve mentioned before about having a document so you could run CC (or really any version of Champions) as version similar to 4th ed.  Basically you list all the Basic Powers and a few options and don’t get skill heavy. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/17/2020 at 8:01 PM, fdw3773 said:

My first experience with Champions was Third Edition (it was a gift I received) in the late 1980s and have collected/played various Hero System games ever since. Most recently, I have been using Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete at local game events along with converting previous campaign materials to 6th Edition. Although 6th Edition has its strengths over previous versions, I still find myself drawn to those earlier editions for various reasons (e.g. graphic design, style/tone of writing), especially when introducing Champions to brand new players who would be turned off by the rules-heavy nature of 5th and 6th Edition.

 

Have other people in this forum experienced this also?


I’m going to put in a quick vote for HERO System Basic Rulebook, like I always do. It’s what the “Complete” games are based on, but is genre neutral. Maybe this is more problematic for you and/or your group, but I’m using it now for a 6e version of Pulp HERO, which never got translated into 6e. It’s working great so far because all the rules are presented in a little over 100 pages so it condenses things down for newbies. But it does require a lot more prep time for the GM, especially if you create their first characters for them (which I recommend) so they can focus on learning the rules before they have to create anything themselves. But I can honestly say the first 10 pages of an introduction gives new players a great overview which is more useful than the “HERO in Two Pages” document. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was introduced to Champions in 1986 and learned how to play using 3rd Edition rules.

 

4th edition, BBB, was my personal favorite. I created a lot of characters and ran several campaigns under that Edition.

 

5th edition was more flexible than 4th edition, but also more complex. I didn't feel that the additional complexity was worth the additional flexibility, but I still played a quite a bit.

 

I haven't been able to play 6th edition very much, due to work things and moving two counties away from my game and group. I have Champions Complete, but that's about it.

 

I backed the kickstarter for Champions Now and have been fooling around with it a fair amount. Sadly, it's been a solo exercise because I don't have a gaming group at the moment. But I think it has promise.

 

For my money, however, 4th edition is the best.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I bought my first Hero book, Champions 2E IIRC, in 1982. Just being able to play supers in an RPG was a revelation to me, and I immediately bought everything for the game already in print, and the rest as it came out. I also picked up the first editions of all the other genre books, Adventurers Club, and pretty much everything else Hero. But the flexibility and universality of 4E really made me fall in love with Hero System. That love affair continued with 5E. Those two iterations of the system are so close to each other, it's very easy to use material for one with the other; meaning my vast collection of books for both gives me almost all the source material I would ever need.

 

I like some of the changes under 6E, dislike others, but readily acknowledge that's largely subjective. I haven't really formed an objective opinion of 6E vs earlier editions, because it's just different enough from them that I haven't felt much need or desire to move to it. I have picked up several 6E books, mostly for setting background not covered in earlier ones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/24/2020 at 12:34 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

I’ve mentioned before about having a document so you could run CC (or really any version of Champions) as version similar to 4th ed.  Basically you list all the Basic Powers and a few options and don’t get skill heavy. 

 

I don't mind getting a bit skill heavy, as I like the skill system in Hero, and never found 4th ed skill lite. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Skills list in Champions Now is pretty sparse:

* Climbing

* Computer programming

* Detective work

* Disguise

* Security systems

* Stealth

* Acrobatics

* Martial attacks (Strikes)

* Martial moves (Block, Dodge, Throw, and a move called And Out)

* Find weakness

* Mental discipline (additional maneuvers for Mental combat)

* Skill levels

* Luck

That's it.

 

The idea seems to be that these are the skills that would actually make a difference in the course of play. Sure, your character can do other things, but those kinds of things are color, and you wouldn't really need to pay points for them. There is no Paramedic skill, for example; if your character wants to save someone who's dying, then you can. It's heroic, and it serves the story.

 

I understand the reasoning. There weren't that many Skills in the original iteration(s) of Champions, and when more skills were added in Champions II and Champions III, they weren't always handled consistently. It's about keeping things simple and consistent.

 

Still, there are a handful of other Skills I personally would like to see. Given that all the Skills in Champions now are either 5 points or 10 points, I suppose it wouldn't be hard to come up with a list of additional Skills to use in one's own CNow campaign, were one so inclined.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

I have noted elsewhere that 5e and 6e seem to suffer from excessive granularity in skills. I have a list of proposed changes, cutting the list by about a quarter.

True, if you choose to do so. Yeah I know in 5th for Survival you are supposed to choose a climate but I just ignore it. I keep it at 4th ed.  Again this is a tool kit so if you don’t want all the sub skillls then don’t use them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

True, if you choose to do so. Yeah I know in 5th for Survival you are supposed to choose a climate but I just ignore it. I keep it at 4th ed.  Again this is a tool kit so if you don’t want all the sub skillls then don’t use them.

 

I like the idea of keeping the sub-skills as a toolkit option. If it's used, you take a -3 penalty if you don't have an appropriate sub-skill at at least a Familiarity. (KS: Deserts for a Survival roll in the Sahara, for example.) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

I like the idea of keeping the sub-skills as a toolkit option. If it's used, you take a -3 penalty if you don't have an appropriate sub-skill at at least a Familiarity. (KS: Deserts for a Survival roll in the Sahara, for example.) 

I like the idea. I do it with Science Skills. I though will only ding you a -1 however.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I like the idea. I do it with Science Skills. I though will only ding you a -1 however.

 

I don't think that -1 is enough of a penalty to really bite. The standard deviation of 3d6 is (IIRC) 2.96, so a -3 penalty gives the players real incentive to take the sub-skills.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...