Mechanical differences between 'Dive for Cover' and 'Flying Dodge'?

[Panpiper]

Dive for cover is a standard maneuver that requires a dex roll depending on how far the character dives. The martial maneuver 'flying dodge'  appears to achieve much the same thing, but as far as I can tell requires no dex rolls. Am I correct? Does the flying dodge maneuver allow a character to actually move their full movement to a hex of their choice with no penalty?

[Ninja-Bear]

Flying Dodge had been clarified that you can only move when you commit the Dodge the remaining meters of movement available to you.  For example say you use it in the beginning of a phase and you didn’t move at all (I’m just going to use standard 12m run) then you can move 12m. Say another phase you get attacked, however prior to the attack, you ran 10m then you can only dodge 2m.

 

And yes, there are no DEX rolls with Flying Dodge.  

[Panpiper]

Say for example a character has moved their entire distance on their turn. The next phase an explosive missile is about to hit their hex. I presume that the 'abort' function would allow the full amount of movement available on their subsequent action (that they aborted to). What is not clear to me is 'why' a character could not abort after taking their action, but prior to the next phase.

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, Panpiper said:

What is not clear to me is 'why' a character could not abort after taking their action, but prior to the next phase.

I’m confused by this question. Could you give an example?

[Panpiper]

1 minute ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I’m confused by this question. Could you give an example?

It is phase three. At dex 26, ChiMaster has moved a full half move and attacked. Still on phase three, at dex 15, Grond has picked up a car and is using it to area effect swat the hex ChiMaster is standing in. ChiMaster wants to abort his next action for a dive for cover. He has already used his full movement this phase. Is he not allowed to abort to his next?

[Ninja-Bear]

I’m not really familiar with Dive for Cover so if that’s the rule, I’m not really sure. I’ll have to read it and get back with you. Hopefully before that someone can give you a better answer. 

[Ninja-Bear]

However if I understood you correctly Panpiper, I would just allow Chimaster to abort and Dive for Cover.

[Doc Democracy]

2 hours ago, Panpiper said:

It is phase three. At dex 26, ChiMaster has moved a full half move and attacked. Still on phase three, at dex 15, Grond has picked up a car and is using it to area effect swat the hex ChiMaster is standing in. ChiMaster wants to abort his next action for a dive for cover. He has already used his full movement this phase. Is he not allowed to abort to his next?

 

Well, we need more information, you say phase 3 you mean segment 3, yes?  A SPD 4 character gets a phase on segment 3 that could be used on segment 4 or 5.  If you have attacked on segment 3 then the first time you can abort is segment 4.  The game mechanic says that all the movement in a phase can happen in a single segment, if you allowed folk to abort on the same phase they move twice their movement in a single phase and it takes away some of the tactics round combat.

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

3 hours ago, Panpiper said:

It is phase three. At dex 26, ChiMaster has moved a full half move and attacked. Still on phase three, at dex 15, Grond has picked up a car and is using it to area effect swat the hex ChiMaster is standing in. ChiMaster wants to abort his next action for a dive for cover. He has already used his full movement this phase. Is he not allowed to abort to his next?

Looked it up and he can abort his DEX to DFC and he can use up to half his chosen movement. The example in Vol 2 had a guy have 20m. He moved 2m in his phase.  In that phase he needed to abort to DFC he is still allowed to use his 10m movement to DFC.

[Doc Democracy]

Quote

Once a character has performed an Attack Action or otherwise used his full Phase in a particular Segment, he cannot Abort to any Action until the next Segment.

p22 HS6 vol 2

[Panpiper]

Moral of the story, if you want to have abort available to you, do NOT buy up your dex. Overpriced anyway.

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

p22 HS6 vol 2

Dive for Cover vol 2 pg 85 “A character can Abort to Dive for Cover” pg 86 Yes this is an attack action but this is an exception to the rule.

[Ninja-Bear]

9 minutes ago, Panpiper said:

Moral of the story, if you want to have abort available to you, do NOT buy up your dex. Overpriced anyway.

Considering you need a successful DEX to make a DFC at -1 per 2m and you can’t to use Acrobatics nor Breakfall nor Accurate  Leap Or Position Shift does help either, buying up DEX is a good choice.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

24 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Dive for Cover vol 2 pg 85 “A character can Abort to Dive for Cover” pg 86 Yes this is an attack action but this is an exception to the rule.

It doesn't matter if you can Abort to the action when you Abort, you can't Abort at all if you've already taken an Attack Action or otherwise used all your Half-Phase Actions this Segment. 

And most things you'd Abort to are Attack Actions.  Dodge, Block, et al are Attack Actions despite not being "attacks". 

[Ninja-Bear]

18 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

It doesn't matter if you can Abort to the action when you Abort, you can't Abort at all if you've already taken an Attack Action or otherwise used all your Half-Phase Actions this Segment. 

And most things you'd Abort to are Attack Actions.  Dodge, Block, et al are Attack Actions despite not being "attacks". 

Read pg 86 where it talks about how you can do multiple DFC in a row.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

32 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Read pg 86 where it talks about how you can do multiple DFC in a row.

I did.  I don't see a single instance of the word "Abort" on page 86 of 6e2.  I don't see any text granting an exemption to the normal "You cannot Abort after using your Actions" rule.  All I see is a discussion of the very specific case of serial DFCs. 

Please quote the text you're talking about if I'm missing it. 

 

Edit: On rereading, I don't even think it's an exception for Aborting.  It seems to be talking about DFCs in multiple Segments and talking about if a character can DFC while still prone from their last DFC. 

[Ninja-Bear]

15 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I did.  I don't see a single instance of the word "Abort" on page 86 of 6e2.  I don't see any text granting an exemption to the normal "You cannot Abort after using your Actions" rule.  All I see is a discussion of the very specific case of serial DFCs. 

Please quote the text you're talking about if I'm missing it. 

Never argued that. And perhaps I missed DOC Democracy point. The point I was making is that even though DFC is considered an Attack Action, you can still  Abort to it.  And the way I read pg 86. You can make a DFC roll right after another one if the GM approves of SFX.

[Ninja-Bear]

10 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Edit: On rereading, I don't even think it's an exception for Aborting.  It seems to be talking about DFCs in multiple Segments and talking about if a character can DFC while still prone from their last DFC. 

And that is probably what is intended. FWIW, the example of rolling away is something I thought of watching old Kung Fu flicks. There’s usually a scene where someone (cause I swear it’s a villain at times) is on the ground and rolling away while the attacker is trying to stop on him. I thought hmm 🤔 Roller is DFC and Stomper is Multiattacking.

[Ninja-Bear]

Panpiper, DEX over priced? Well I don’t think so but that’s just me. Ymmv.

[Hugh Neilson]

21 hours ago, Panpiper said:

It is phase three. At dex 26, ChiMaster has moved a full half move and attacked. Still on phase three, at dex 15, Grond has picked up a car and is using it to area effect swat the hex ChiMaster is standing in. ChiMaster wants to abort his next action for a dive for cover. He has already used his full movement this phase. Is he not allowed to abort to his next?

 

Once you've taken your action, you cannot abort until the next segment.  Whether he has used his full move or not moved at all is irrelevant.

 

15 hours ago, Panpiper said:

Moral of the story, if you want to have abort available to you, do NOT buy up your dex. Overpriced anyway.

 

Or use a little strategy band don't automatically act as soon as your DEX permits you to act.   This depends on how your game plays Held Actions.  6eV2p20 says "With the GM’s permission, a character can Hold his Action “generically,” without declaring any sort of precondition for acting, and then may perform whatever Action he wants to whenever he wants to.".  That is the manner in which I see most games allow Held actions. 

 

DEX order also only impacts an Abort if both characters act on the same phase. 

 

Pricing is always relative.  DEX provides initiative and DEX skill bonuses, and I'd say 5 points for +1 to all DEX rolls and 5 points for +5 to action order is OK.  I'd say that INT and PRE are underpriced by comparison, though.  They also grant bonuses to a significant characteristic roll linked to many skills, and a second benefit (PRE attacks or PER rolls).  I'd set the pricing of +1 to all rolls with that characteristic at a base cost of 5 points, and the secondary benefit (+1 PER rolls; +5 INIT; +1d6 PRE attacks) at 5 points, which would price PRE and INT at 2 points, the same as DEX.  I'd also leave PRE defense exclusive to EGO and consider either "only EGO rolls" or "only defense (PRE and mental powers) -1 limitations on EGO.

 

All that said, though, I find initiative not all that valuable, at least to my playstyle with most characters.

 

 

4 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

And that is probably what is intended. FWIW, the example of rolling away is something I thought of watching old Kung Fu flicks. There’s usually a scene where someone (cause I swear it’s a villain at times) is on the ground and rolling away while the attacker is trying to stop on him. I thought hmm 🤔 Roller is DFC and Stomper is Multiattacking.

 

Where multiple attacks depend on a single roll, DFC avoids all of the attacks,so DFC only needs to be done once to avoid the full Multi-attack sequence.

 

P 86, at least to me, addresses the possibility that Roller is attacked again while still prone from DFC.

[Ninja-Bear]

I read Flying Dodge in HSMA and one big difference is if you use Flying Dodge against a Range Attack, it still has a chance to hit. Apparently if you DFC against a Ranged Attack and are successful the Range Attack automatically fails.

[Ninja-Bear]

Oh and you can only move half or less your distance and still use Flying Dodge. I be misremembering but in Fifth you were allowed to move but if you FD, you still got  your whole movement for the maneuver. 

[LoneWolf]

Having a high DEX does not mean that you go first.  Having a high DEX means you get to choose when you go.  The biggest mistake most people make with high DEX characters is always going first.  Knowing when to go first and when to allow someone else to go first is what makes a character effective.