Clinging to others: Game effects? - Nevermind

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

FREDp143 includes the text

Quote

Although Clinging is not an Attack Power, characters may buy Damage Shield for it to create, for example, a “tar baby” effect in which anyone who attacks the character gets stuck to him. Clinging with this Advantage only functions as a Damage Shield; it doesn’t allow characters to walk on walls or the like.

 

What does being "stuck to" a character in this manner actually do in game terms? 

Citations where possible, please.  I'm not the GM for the game this is relevant to. 

 

Edit: Nevermind, I clearly asked in the wrong place. 

[Doc Democracy]

I have no citations but if someone came to me with the power I would plan to run it like a passive grab...

[Chris Goodwin]

It means that the cling-ee is attached to the cling-er, and has to beat the STR of the Clinging in order to get loose.  But it's not treated as a Grab, and doesn't allow throwing or damage.  

 

You could do a Clinging-enhanced Grab, which would increase the STR required to break out, but not for damage or throwing purposes.

[IndianaJoe3]

I remember Clinging being used for this in one of the martial arts books, but I also remember not being happy with the build (but not why).

[Scott Ruggels]

Why not build it as an entangle Damage Shield bought to a suitable strength?

[Chris Goodwin]

Well... if you're already a wall-walker that's another way you could use your Clinging.  Entangle with Damage Shield seems like an overbuild.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

How would this construct interact with Accessible Foci (somebody hits Glue Boy with a sword), Inaccessible Foci (Wrist-Gun-Man punches Glue Boy), or powers with a specific point of origin (Drillfinger stabs Glue Boy)? 

How would this construct interact with movement?  Can the clingee and clinger move relative to each other at all?  Can they force each other to move?  If yes, where and what are the rules for that? 

How would this construct interact with Knockback?  Particularly if the attack that triggers the Damage Shield also does Knockback? 

 

3 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I have no citations but if someone came to me with the power I would plan to run it like a passive grab...

Could you share your line of thought, what you mean by "passive grab", and why you think it's acceptably priced (or not)? 

 

2 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

It means that the cling-ee is attached to the cling-er, and has to beat the STR of the Clinging in order to get loose.  But it's not treated as a Grab, and doesn't allow throwing or damage. 

Yes, and what does that mean? 

 

2 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

You could do a Clinging-enhanced Grab, which would increase the STR required to break out, but not for damage or throwing purposes.

Do you have a citation for this? 

 

55 minutes ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

I remember Clinging being used for this in one of the martial arts books, but I also remember not being happy with the build (but not why).

Do you remember which book or the power construction? 

 

24 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Why not build it as an entangle Damage Shield bought to a suitable strength?

Because I'm trying to figure out what this option suggested in the book does.  Suggesting another option doesn't help anyone understand this one. 

[Ninja-Bear]

I used this build from the Ultimate Metamorph and hilarity ensued and a player was miffed. I realized that I bought this power and I can’t remember the exact circumstance but the player I think was thrown into me. Well he stuck to me and he wasn’t none to pleased. Basically GB(!) the damage shield makes Clinging into an Attack Power and as Christopher pointed out it’s a STR vs STR roll.  Now what’s implied in the build is that the only thing Clinged to is what touches the person with the power (at least that’s the way I would rule it). So if you punch someone in the groin and he has this as a special technique (yup so this in a king fu movie) only the punching arm is affected. So the guy with the arm held can use his other limbs to attacker the guy with Clinging. Conversely the Master had all his limbs to attack and defend he even drug a few of the other fighters across the ground. (This guy was evil). 

[Doc Democracy]

4 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

How would this construct interact with movement?  Can the clingee and clinger move relative to each other at all?  Can they force each other to move?  If yes, where and what are the rules for that? 

How would this construct interact with Knockback?  Particularly if the attack that triggers the Damage Shield also does Knockback? 

 

This is why we end up with encyclopaedic rule books. 😄

 

I think these are all good questions but the are discursive ones that might affect how you cost advantages etc.

 

I said passive grab.  A hand hits, the hand is passively grabbed and stuck.  A sword hits and is grabbed (not automatically - relevant grab attack rolls but independent of the tar baby's SPD/actions etc).

 

Can they force each other to move?  In the same way as anyone else can. Relative movement would depend on advantages/disadvantages on the power as well as common sense.

 

Doc

[IndianaJoe3]

9 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Do you remember which book or the power construction? 

 

No, but it was pre-6e. HSMA uses extra STR, only to Grab (-1).

[massey]

I wouldn't allow it.  I know it's listed in the rules, but it's a really dumb idea.  I don't think they thought it through very well.  Clinging is a movement power, hence why it's so cheap.  You're basically looking at a cheap auto-grab that doesn't cost End, and we don't want to go there.

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, massey said:

I wouldn't allow it.  I know it's listed in the rules, but it's a really dumb idea.  I don't think they thought it through very well.  Clinging is a movement power, hence why it's so cheap.  You're basically looking at a cheap auto-grab that doesn't cost End, and we don't want to go there.

 

I agree with you in spirit.  As-is, I wouldn't be delighted with it.  I'd require a couple of modifiers to make it an attack power, cost END, etc. 

 

I still like the idea, though: wasn't there a villain or two in comics that were Sticky like that?  Seems only right that we should be able to model that. 

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

No, but it was pre-6e. HSMA uses extra STR, only to Grab (-1).

Probably the first UMA for 4th under Tai Chi -sticky hands.

[massey]

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

I agree with you in spirit.  As-is, I wouldn't be delighted with it.  I'd require a couple of modifiers to make it an attack power, cost END, etc. 

 

I still like the idea, though: wasn't there a villain or two in comics that were Sticky like that?  Seems only right that we should be able to model that. 

 

I think you can model it, it's just with regular Str bought as a Damage Shield.  Clinging (and Str usable while clinging) is ultra cheap.

[Ninja-Bear]

14 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

How would this construct interact with Accessible Foci (somebody hits Glue Boy with a sword), Inaccessible Foci (Wrist-Gun-Man punches Glue Boy), or powers with a specific point of origin (Drillfinger stabs Glue Boy)? 

How would this construct interact with movement?  Can the clingee and clinger move relative to each other at all?  Can they force each other to move?  If yes, where and what are the rules for that? 

How would this construct interact with Knockback?  Particularly if the attack that triggers the Damage Shield also does Knockback? 

Good questions and honestly when I first saw this I had a few of the same questions.  So how to answer the questions? First let’s look at the Power and effects. The effect we’re going for is “tar baby” or your example glue boy. The Power Clinging allows you to use STR to hold onto things/surfaces. So with that in mind, that will answer many of your questions. 
 

OAF hits Glue Boy-OAF is stuck (and in most cases) unusable until freed. “My sword is stuck!”

 

OIF hits Glue Boy-OIF is stick can wrist gun man use it? Most cases no again. Here the trope is usually if the barrel of gun is covered you can’t fire it. 
 

Drillfinger, there’s a case to be made that based on his sfx and no Foci, he gets to attack again.

 

How does  it affects movement? Same as if you grabbed a moving target. They should get to add movement to STR for STR vs STR contest.

 

Move relative to each other? Yeah I don’t see why not unless sfx of movement gets stuck. Say a leg gets held.

 

Force each other to move? Again STR vs STR. Note if Tar bbany is weaker and stuck to Strong Guy then he’s being moved around.

 

Again KB how does it normally work? The thing is STR vs STR if it’s failed then both are flying backwards.

 

Hope that helps. 

[Duke Bushido]

21 minutes ago, massey said:

 

I think you can model it, it's just with regular Str bought as a Damage Shield.  Clinging (and Str usable while clinging) is ultra cheap.

 

Well yes; but I'm used to being on the unpopular side of these discussions.  If you want to model it as STR, then you have to also rule that you are willing to allow a character to use his STR without having to tie up one or more of his appendages.   That is. You have to say "Sure thing; Mr. Mucus can grab with his shoulder blade or his abdomen, and use his STR to hold fast without having to use his hands or prehensile feet." 

 

This opens it up to anyone doing it, though, as he doesn't have a power or even a Maneuver to make this a unique-to-him ability.  If MM can do it with just a Grab,  then anyone could do it with just a Grab, and now Superman has grabbed Lex Luthor by the head and is squeezing him between his mighty space pecs.

 

This, more than anything, is why I'm I clibed to go with the Clinging build: it is something the character must buy to differentiate clearly as not a thing anyone can do with just a grab. 

 

Additionally, there is an attack roll with Grab.  If you are modeling someone who just _is_ sticky, every time someone hits him, or otherwise makes contact, they may not stick.  If they have a higher SPD, they are guaranteed a kick or two without fear of sticking simply because Booger Boy doesn't have an attack on that Phase.   And if someone does come up behind BB and attack, and stick to him-  we'll, that's an attack roll:  BB's turn is over because he has attacked. 

 

It gets wierder:  if you sneak up on him, he is less sticky because of the CV penalties and bonuses involved. 

 

Like I said, I don't particularly like the relatively inexpensive Clinging as the base, but I can't thi k of anything more appropriate.  I can see requiring some modifiers, like an endurance cost and probably the damage shield to represent the unconscious attack roll. Not my favorite, but it does require buying a particular game effect without risking everyone just deciding they can have it because one guy does. 

[Ninja-Bear]

It seems no one has mentioned that having a sticky damage shield can also be a disadvantage. (Well except me).

[Ninja-Bear]

How about making STR with Clinging and Damage Shield Casual STR? If you want to use your Full STR then you buy more Clinging. Oh and just because Clinging is 0 END I believe you still have to pay STR END.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Well yes; but I'm used to being on the unpopular side of these discussions.  If you want to model it as STR, then you have to also rule that you are willing to allow a character to use his STR without having to tie up one or more of his appendages.   That is. You have to say "Sure thing; Mr. Mucus can grab with his shoulder blade or his abdomen, and use his STR to hold fast without having to use his hands or prehensile feet."

 

Sounds like Extra Limbs - only for sticky grabs.  Note that later editions removed buying each limb separately - unlimited "limbs" is not overly expensive.

[IndianaJoe3]

3 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Probably the first UMA for 4th under Tai Chi -sticky hands.

 

That sounds right.

[Ninja-Bear]

53 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Sounds like Extra Limbs - only for sticky grabs.  Note that later editions removed buying each limb separately - unlimited "limbs" is not overly expensive.

True-5 pts for unlimited limbs but doesn’t that then make it cheaper? Iirc extra limbs are considered off hand. But how many people enforce that?

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Sounds like Extra Limbs - only for sticky grabs.  Note that later editions removed buying each limb separately - unlimited "limbs" is not overly expensive.

 

 

If you want to run with "Extra Limb: prehensile skin," I'm totally on board with that. 

 

But just like declaring it to be a straight-up Grab, you've got to look at the ramifications.  Going with extra limbs, he could back up against a ladder and scale it with his "extra limbs" and leave his hands and feet free; extremely effectively of he has extra STR for his extra limbs.  He could work a doorknob with a bit of eighties side boob.   With his hands and feet bound, he could still run away (rate will vary by terrain, I expect). 

 

And of course, it still makes it a grab Maneuver, which is an attack action, meaning that any opponent could end our Hero's rurn by simply opting to stick something to him. 

 

I suppose we could put a trigger or a damage shield on the extra limbs, but... 

 

Well, the further we get away from Clinging, the clunker it gets, which I tend to think is a pretty good sign that clinging might be the right direction after all. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Duke, I’ve seen Extra Limbs for Feet to represent monkeys who can use their feet as well as their hands.

[Duke Bushido]

yeah; I've seen that, too.  I've _done_ it a couple of times.

 

But once "Ambidextrous" saw print, a light bulb kind of went off in my head.  It seemed so much more appropriate to build based on that, instead (remembering that I still do the 2e "extra limbs are pricey" thing.   )

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

20 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

If you want to run with "Extra Limb: prehensile skin," I'm totally on board with that. 

 

But just like declaring it to be a straight-up Grab, you've got to look at the ramifications.  Going with extra limbs, he could back up against a ladder and scale it with his "extra limbs" and leave his hands and feet free; extremely effectively of he has extra STR for his extra limbs.  He could work a doorknob with a bit of eighties side boob.   With his hands and feet bound, he could still run away (rate will vary by terrain, I expect). 

 

And of course, it still makes it a grab Maneuver, which is an attack action, meaning that any opponent could end our Hero's rurn by simply opting to stick something to him. 

 

I suppose we could put a trigger or a damage shield on the extra limbs, but... 

 

Well, the further we get away from Clinging, the clunker it gets, which I tend to think is a pretty good sign that clinging might be the right direction after all. 

 

I am more envisioning the Extra Limbs as an added investment to the Clinging Damage Shield to avoid the need to maintain a "grab" with one or more of his hands.